Changing Man…. the more I see the less I understand

Home Forum Chat Forum Changing Man…. the more I see the less I understand

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 129 total)
  • Changing Man…. the more I see the less I understand
  • andykirk
    Member

    Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?  How can this actually happen in this day and age, and how can Tory voters continue to vote Tory after such a ridiculous occurrence?

    (Note I consider myself to be part of the ignorant 95%)

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    While I never voted for Labour under Blair, and I share @failedengineer’s opinion of the current Labour front bench… but all the “it doesn’t matter who is in government” line is bollox. From the moment we once again had a Conservative only government (and then, even worse, a DUP propped up Conservative government), this country started moving, at speed, towards something that makes me feel very uncomfortable.

    Hear, hear! It still upsets me to hear people badmouth the LibDems on the basis of their Tuition Fees failure. I can only imagine that their presence in government saved us from innumerable ills.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    It was all about the “great tory infighting minority” and obvz those that fear most shout loudest.

    And then the whaling daily promoted “immigrants are bad, let’s save £350m” as spouted by LyingBloHard and his cronies, and those racist amongst the great unwashed dribbled down thier shirts and managed to pick up a pen long enough to scrawl an x in a box.

    You voted em’ in, and you voted in the referendum so live with the consequences like the rest of the population.

    You had the power of both voting and persuasion like the rest of us.

    Premier Icon neil the wheel
    Subscriber

    It’s been like this since 1066. We had our opportunities to put all thosde entitled heads on pikes and we missed most of them. Brexit is the stupidest thing since the Restoration but we’ve long since rolled over and let them take what they want from us. It’s over.

    Mr Woppit
    Member

    Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?

    Because CallMeDave and his sidekick Gideon Powerstance thought it would be a great wheeze to get their pesky, bothersome backbench Europhobic  Xenophobes all clustered around Bill Cash, to SHUT THE FK UP!

    Well played, the Bullingdon.

    philjunior
    Member

    I think whilst MP’s are allowed to have an outside interest in private companies (Chris Grayling, Hunt et al) then you’re never going have impartial MP’s putting the countries needs first.  Once retired, how many MP’s go on to be non-exec directors of large corporations and therefore how many had deals set up prior to their departure?

    This, and large donations to parties. The country would be in a much better state if we paid MPs more (unpopular I know, but that’s why their votes are up for sale) and completely banned having any potential conflicts of interest for life.

    It won’t happen, because we all get tribal, and there certainly aren’t enough good MPs to back it. The lack of interest in politics is more a lack of enthusiasm for any sort of redemption of the system – but it won’t get better without people taking an interest in it. I understand why people voted for Brexit (even though they were wrong) and I don’t think they were stupid, just fed up and misled.

    Blair’s Labour party privatised things that even Maggie would’ve left alone. The only people that gain anything from that are shareholders, and the shareholders are not generally the working classes.

    philjunior
    Member

    Why were the public ever allowed to vote on Brexit when 95% don’t understand the actual implications of staying/ leaving?  How can this actually happen in this day and age, and how can Tory voters continue to vote Tory after such a ridiculous occurrence?

    (Note I consider myself to be part of the ignorant 95%)

    It’s not 95%, nobody knew (or knows) what we will end up with. We weren’t even voting for a proposed exit stance – just “leaving the EU” which means **** all except not getting a democratic input into the “undemocratic” EU without some context of what agreements we may stay in and get out of.

    scud
    Member

    I do wonder what kind of world i brought my daughter into. I think the Blair Labour of old at least seemed to bring positivity, “New Labour” where basically straight down the middle, but seemingly at least had the country’s best interest at heart (and i was one of the soldiers that went to play in the sand…)

    I agree with a lot of above, but my main gripe is that there is no consequences for these Tory politicians, they can do and say what they like and if they get it badly wrong, simply walk away on to the board of some FTSE 100 company, look at Cameron, he got this whole shitstorm ball rolling, the minute it didn’t go as planned, he simply walked away. You’ve got BoJo who the month before the referendum was lecturing us on Remaining, then as soon as he saw a path he could go down for personal gain, switches to Leave.

    It just seems they are all in it for personal gain and screw the man in the street.

    I’m from the south coast, but have lived in York and Leeds, lived abroad and now reside in Norfolk, what is hilarious here is that every farmer voted leave, “too many EU guidelines controlling our farming”, then they all ask, where their subsidies have gone and why all the fruit and asparagus and other still labour intensive picking methods has their produce rotting in the fields as they cannot get Eastern European labour to pick it!

    Premier Icon SaxonRider
    Subscriber

    Because CallMeDave and his sidekick Gideon Powerstance thought it would be a great wheeze to get their pesky, bothersome backbench Europhobic  Xenophobes all clustered around Bill Cash, to SHUT THE FK UP!

    Premier Icon Del
    Subscriber

    fortunately for all those farmers it looks like gove is going to keep subsidies going.

    Blame those who regularly vote Tory and stop mixing them up with those who voted Brexit.

    i’m afraid you are complicit in the ongoing mess that surrounds us. whatever you may like to think, that vote counted towards this, irrespective of what the sentiment was behind it.

    BillMC
    Member

    I watched the comings and goings of the Tory conference from the library steps. They seemed terrified of the local population. Not one went into the City Arms, all of 200yds away but they did make a queue at a ”’gentleman’s’ club in town. Waiters in the Midland hotel reported ”do’ you know who I am’ comments. They genuinely seemed even more despicable than I imagined, quite some achievement. They are very much removed from Joe Public and they are therefore happy to screw over people on behalf of international capital so that when they leave office, like Gideon, they can pick up £600k p.a. from a US merchant bank for one day a week’s ”work’. Although I have not much faith in the parliamentary system, they are not all the same and I look forward to Corbyn having a go at it.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    I still can’t get my head round why Labour and the Lib Dems aren’t exploiting this situation. You have a minority government that is full of infighting and is propped up by a minor party with some seriously unpalatable views. Brexit is turning into a disaster and there are a swath of other issues on our own shores too. You’d have thought this’d be the perfect time to be the opposition, lots of opportunity to further your cause and some gaping holes in the government.

    But no, you have a turgid Lib Dems who appear largely policy free bar the second Brexit referendum and a Labour party who have no clear Brexit position and feel to a large portion of the populous completely un-electable.

    As little as 15 years ago we had Blair and Brown and Clegg in opposition who, for all the stick they got, would be ripping this government apart.

    I don’t like what the Tory’s are doing right now, but Labour and the Lib-Dems are really helping them do it by being largely incompetent.

    And because of this, I feel like a political refugee with no real home, Lib-Dems I guess is the logical place but by God do they need some substance behind them.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    If you feel like a political refugee whos views are totally unrepresented by mainstream U.K. politics then join the club. There are bloody millions of us!

    I’m watching on in impotent horror, a government that can’t govern and an opposition who refuse to oppose!

    democracy in this country has never been in a more sorry state!

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    There are loads of us aren’t there. The Conservatives are far too far right, Labour are waaaaay left and we’re stuck in the middle as both of those sides make loads of noise and little sense. As I write that i think “well hang on, what about the Lib-Dems?”, and, well, where the heck are they? They should be the answer to my political desires (liberal, centre, pro-Brexit) but they’re just not really here are they?

    kerley
    Member

    Left, Right and Centre are just words used as labels.  Centre doesn’t mean it is the best for everyone.

    Does make me laugh when people see Corbyn as waaaaay left though.  Shows the impact of what the media get up to I suppose.

    tpbiker
    Member

    Becuse they all beleived a couple of lying self promoting personal political ideologies to improve their own careers.

    So, is that fault of education or just stupidity?

    You decide.

    Unfortunately it’s very much this. I remember being pretty much staggered by the brexit vote, not one of my friends was a leave, and my entire Facebook feed was overrun with remain posts. After the vote I thought about why that was.

    Basically the people I tend to know are reasonably educated  Liberal individuals, who had the intelligence to see through the lies.

    It’s a generalisation of course,  but I imagine the lower your intelligence or education level, the more likely you were to vote ‘leave’. Not all leave voters are stupid, but I’m willing to bet overall they aren’t as educated as remainders.

    Despite of course it impacting them more than anyone else..

    nickhit3
    Member

    anyone fancy a pint?

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

     Labour are waaaaay left

    Which Labour policies are ‘way left’?

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    Left, Right and Centre are just words used as labels.  Centre doesn’t mean it is the best for everyone.

    I’m aware of that, and Brexit makes it even more complicated. But right now Labour are left and The Tory’s are right, and what’s left is a gaping hole in the middle where I think I and a lot of others sit.

    Does make me laugh when people see Corbyn as waaaaay left though.  Shows the impact of what the media get up to I suppose.

    Depends on what you compare him too. He is compared to Labour party leaders of recent years, and also when compared to UK politics over the last 30 years overall. I guess he’s not waaaaaay left compared to some of the party in the 70’s but he’s always been on that side of the debate and the party in general.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    He’s not ‘waaaay left’.

    Constant repitition of this  just gives the Tories more ammunition.

    If you don’t like his policies, leave the party and vote Liberal.

    He represents the traditional values of the Labour Party, unlike Blair or his hangers on.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    He’s not ‘waaay left’ in any shape or form.

    It’s a big, fat lie and if you genuinely believe it then you’re the problem.

    Sorry, but he is if you compare him to recent UK politics which is the sphere we are currently operating in. I completely get that in some contexts he is not that far left at all, but those aren’t overly relevant to the state of UK politics at the moment.

    And I am no fool, I read policy documents and manifestos before I vote and actually vote for the ones I like rather than just voting Labour/Tory/whoever as that’s who I’ve always voted for, this means I’ve voted on occasion for every major party in the last 20 years. But if that makes me part of the problem then so be it, but I am very open to be “fixed”.

    He represents the traditional values of the Labour Party, unlike Blair or his hangers on.

    I don’t give a stuff about these, and I suggest neither does a large part of the electorate. Blair had his faults, but his policies were a lot closer to what I would like then those from either side of the fence at the moment. Hell, at least he had conviction, May would have been out of government long ago with him at the helm, that she isn’t is a massive black mark against Corbyn.

    BillMC
    Member

    I think the opposition is happy for May or her replacement to be in power when the car crash of Brexit happens and it will certainly do for a lot of people who voted for it. Whether that drives them left or right is another question.

    6079smithw
    Member

    You simply can’t rely on political parties or figures to make the world a better place

    hodgynd
    Member

    El-bent ..I never said that ” I didn’t do politics ”

    DezB ..got it absolutely spot on ..

    I have opinions which I prefer to keep to myself and use my vote too..but I just find threads like this one , the Brexit thread and Donald Trump ..a complete waste of space ..has anyone  managed to change someones opinion?

    I can honestly say that I’ve not looked at the subject matter on either Brexit or Trump , May or Corbyn …never mind contribute towards it..and that’s the way it will stay .

    But I will still use my vote where & when necessary.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    Sorry, but he is if you compare him to recent UK politics which is the sphere we are currently operating in.

    Recent (post 79) UK politics has been a race rightward.

    Anyone could be demonised as  ‘way left’ compared to that.

    Blair had his faults, but his policies were a lot closer to what I would like then those from either side of the fence at the moment.

    Blair’s policies were basically Tory Lite.

    So you have a choice of the right wing of the Liberal Party or the left of the Tory party.

    Surely one of those would be to your taste?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    . Hell, at least he had conviction

    Convictions overuling all the evidence is what gave us the Iraq war.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    So you have a choice of the right wing of the Liberal Party or the left of the Tory party.

    But that’s the point, I don’t have that choice do I? The Tory party are heading right and Labour are heading left, maybe not as far left as the party of the 70’s but left of the most successful leader of the party in 30 years and left of where they have been since the late 80’s. So I stand here in the middle with both parties heading away from me, and I am adamant I am not alone in this feeling. So maybe “Tory Lite” or “Labour Lite” is what I want, a party that takes some of the good bits of the other party and mixes them with their own work. But what I certainly don’t want is “hard Tory” or “hard Labour”, which is what we have on the table.

    El-bent
    Member

     I still can’t get my head round why Labour and the Lib Dems aren’t exploiting this situation. You have a minority government that is full of infighting and is propped up by a minor party with some seriously unpalatable views. Brexit is turning into a disaster and there are a swath of other issues on our own shores too. You’d have thought this’d be the perfect time to be the opposition, lots of opportunity to further your cause and some gaping holes in the government.

    The libdems can be ignored, which the media is pretty much doing.

    When it comes to brexit which pretty much exposes the divisions and problems in society, there are different people wanting different things:

    The hard brexiters want to “take back control”, while off shoring their investment funds to remain in the EU,

    The anti-immigrant brigade, they really need to have this behaviour knocked out of them,

    Then we come to Maybot, Wanting to keep her party together? Yes, but the prize is to leave the ECHR jurisdiction,

    And Corbyn, who won’t obstruct Brexit as its a means to an end, getting rid of the evil capitalist EU so when he comes to power he can implement the socialist utopia. Doesn’t sound too bad, unfortunately getting rid of capitalism is Marxism, not socialism. Corbyn and militan…I mean momentum won’t see power.

     has anyone  managed to change someones opinion?

    Probably not, it has more use finding like minded people though. I’m sure some people will call that an echo chamber.

     I can honestly say that I’ve not looked at the subject matter on either Brexit or Trump , May or Corbyn …never mind contribute towards it..and that’s the way it will stay .

    So once every few years you turn up to vote and don’t think anything really beyond that. You don’t do politics then.

    Is it any wonder this country is run by idiots then?

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    And Corbyn, who won’t obstruct Brexit as its a means to an end, getting rid of the evil capitalist EU so when he comes to power he can implement the socialist utopia. Doesn’t sound too bad, unfortunately getting rid of capitalism is Marxism, not socialism.

    I must’ve missed all that in their manifesto.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Their manifesto at the last general election was pretty good (easily far better than the Conservative and LibDem efforts) but the people now running the Labour Party have made it clear for decades what their aims are… which is why they are not trusted, despite the awful record of the utter non-government that they are the opposition to.

    hodgynd
    Member

    El-bent ..

    You have a real aptitude for quoting shite that exists in your own mind ..

    Perhaps it escaped your attention when I said that I have opinions which I will keep to myself .

    Come to think of it ..you are brilliant at distorting the truth ..ever thought of becoming an MP yourself ..you would fit right in ..

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Their manifesto at the last general election was pretty good (easily far better than the Conservative and LibDem efforts) but the people now running the Labour Party have made it clear for decades what their aims are…

    So you’re saying that the manifesto does not represent the aims of the leadership?

    I’d try taking more water with it.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    So you’re saying that the manifesto does not represent the aims of the leadership?

    Yes.

    Premier Icon Rusty Spanner
    Subscriber

    But that’s the point, I don’t have that choice do I?

    Yes, yes you do. Join the LibDems.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    It’s not just Corbyn himself who’s a known quantity. It’s everyone around him.

    The reason the Tory party are carrying on like they are, with total disdain for the non-gammon electorate is that they know full well that this country will never in a million years vote to put John Mcdonnell into number 11, with Len Mcklusky popping in every day for a chat, with Dianne Abbot as the Home Office. Hey… maybe everyone deserves a second chance, and we could bring Ken Livingstone back as foreign secretary?

    Its never going to happen! Ever! No matter how much of a hash they make of things. So they know that they can do what the hell they like as the country has no realistic alternative. And Jezza has made it clear that he’s going nowhere. Hence the extreme lunatic Brexit nutters now wagging the Tory dog. They have never been faced with an opportunity like this in their wildest dreams! And they’re taking full advantage!

    And it wouldn’t matter anyway, because if we had the hard left instead of the hard right, then the Brexit situation, which is the only game in town, would be heading in exactly the same direction because they want the same thing. Just for different reasons.

    Our entire political system has been hijacked by nutters on either end of the political scale who both want to deliver the same outcome, just by slightly different means…. Economic Armageddon

    rmacattack
    Member

    I’ve said this and i’ll say it again, somebody that has always voted tory will never ever vote for another party no matter how or what they did. It’s embedded so deep into them they dare not ever place a tick in the other box.

    Seems to me some on here want the Labour party (second largest share of the votes) to bend to their whims and become their conduit for opposing Brexit, as the Lib Dems have little to no power!

    Speaking from my own experience. I think some people in this country underestimate how hardline significant groups of the population are. Their real views, are far less liberal, further right and draconian than even the current Tories. Poles apart from the views shouted from the roof tops on the internet!

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Their real views, are far less liberal, further right and draconian than even the current Tories.

    True enough. They get very upset if you point it out to them though.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Binners is flowing with astute political insight today. All good stuff. I can’t disagree with much, or perhaps any, of it.

    rmacattack
    Member

    vote for the green party, and get good debates on your electric vehicles

Viewing 40 posts - 41 through 80 (of 129 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.