Why not they probably don’t have the internet down there…. you can just milk whatever walks past

Why not they probably don’t have the internet down there…. you can just milk whatever walks past

Well they’ve been milking the pit closures for years.

Of course it’s not a joke. There are shops selling milk in rural North Wales. You don’t have to live in a city to have a shop a cycle-able distance away from you, was my point.

https://www.creamline.co.uk/shop/milk Just use the milkman 😉

Of course it’s not a joke. There are shops selling milk in rural North Wales. You don’t have to live in a city to have a shop a cycle-able distance away from you, was my point.

All within a mile of a house?

All within a mile of a house?

He didn’t say “all”.

and here we go, best way to deal with a modern transport issue is to deal with the serious concerns of rural welsh shopping and driving from FNQ to Alaska with your boat and entire extended family

He didn’t say “all”.

Ah so he means.

You can live in deepest darkest Wales and can be over a mile from a shop.

All within a mile of a house?

I haven’t been to them all! What a ridiculous line of argument.

I said

You can live in deepest darkest North Wales and still have a village shop less than a mile away. Spar isn’t the preserve of the metropolitan elite for crying out loud!

I didn’t say everybody in North Wales, I just said it’s possible to live in rural North Wales (which is most of it) and have a shop nearby. Do you really believe that NOBODY in rural North Wales lives within a mile of a shop that sells milk?

But…
This shows exactly what happens with these discussions. Someone says “we should make public and active transport better in cities” and someone replies with “but what about disabled people who need to travel a long way in/between rural areas?” And the discussion gets derailed.

Edit

You can live in deepest darkest Wales and can be over a mile from a shop

well, yes, of course. Who ever claimed otherwise? Certainly not me.

Phase out cars?
Not going to happen. 😀

Ah so he means.

You can live in deepest darkest Wales and can be over a mile from a shop.

Your response to misrepresenting someone is to state the bleeding obvious? Poor form, Drac.

well, yes, of course. Who ever claimed otherwise? Certainly not me.

So what exactly were you getting at?

So what exactly were you getting at?

Was it not clear from the rest of the post you left out from your quote?

Was it not clear from the rest of the post you left out from your quote?

No. Hence why I asked.

i don’t think finding milk in north wales will be an issue, finding petrol to fuel your car to get it might be.

No. Hence why I asked.

I don’t see how it could be any clearer. I think you’re proving the point that people like to argue extremes when talking about general situations.

I think it’s a bit more fundamental than just swapping a school run car for a cargo bike, it is going to require a general shift in lots of people’s lifestyles and some of their expectations.

First of all if you’re doing stuff without a car of course it is going to take longer. By bike, bus or on foot you simply have to allow more time for people to get about. So perhaps that means a change to our increasingly long hours/presentism type working culture…

It’s clear to me now that all of the technologies from the last hundred years or so which were meant to save us effort and improve productivity giving us free time back, stuff like like cars and computers, actually mean many of us now work longer harder hours, the common belief being that we can produce exponentially more…

British people are generally “time poor” and part of the equation that leads to that is the expectation that we’ll just rip about in our cars between home, work and all our other commitments rather than taking any time over things, that’s got to change…

A life without the same level of rush and panic sort of has to go hand in hand with reduced car use…

Drac:

My point was that even people who don’t live in a city could potentially change how they make some journeys.

It was a counter point to cromolyolly’s point that this sort of stuff is only a good idea if you’re able-bodied and live in a city.

I gave the example of someone who lives in or just outside a village in North Wales travelling to buy a pint of milk from a shop. They don’t live in a city, but it’s still a journey that could change.

The select few who don’t need to transport children to two different locations? You’re undermining your own argument.

You did see the all but, yes? Or are you just being obtuse via literism?

Yes they are

According to actual sources, not wikipebelief, transport, power generation/supply and power intensive parts of the ICI sector are the largest single sources of pollution in urban areas. Which actually stop depends on the exact urban areas and the blend of activities. Transport includes, but is not limited to, cars. Heavy vehicles, like buses and trucks contribute pollution up to 5x their proportion if the sector. So no they don’t unless you can find legitimate sources that say otherwise.

No it doesn’t.

Does too. EVs !over the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack. Stringent environmental regulations move production to places with none, or lax.

Happy to have the hard conversations.

Not singling you out in particular but no, we are most definitely not ready for those discussions yet. There evidence is overwhelming on that front.

Right, so we’re back to “we shouldn’t improve public transport because it’s not very good at present”

I have absolutely no idea how you got that from

Which is different from inner London. Most urban areas don’t have a tube system for a start.

But it appears you missed everything that preceded it.

More whataboutery

This word, i think it doesn’t mean what he thinks it means.

“but what about disabled people who need to travel a long way in/between rural areas?

I actually didn’t specify a distance or location, just people who aren’t able bodied. Shadow one for a couple of days, better yet take care of one for 20 years and then speak about their experience.

Plus it was largely in response to the “I bike everywhere, why can’t everyone else which always infects these discussions”. It’s like empathy is a foreign disease these days.

A short journey to get a pint of milk”, which kind of implies it’s y’know a short journey.

In case you missed it, I never specified a distance or local because u understand that is all utterly irrelevant if you are not able bodied. Or older. Or inform in some way. A short journey, climb Everest, it’s all the same if you can do it. Which is why people spend their entire lives fighting for the consideration and respect they are due.

I gave the example of someone who lives in or just outside a village in North Wales travelling to buy a pint of milk from a shop.

When I was 11yrs old I helped the local milkman deliver fresh milk to a local village/district. Via an EV with giant lead acid batteries. The milk was contained in reusable/recollected bottles. It tasted really fresh.

The vehicle was very quiet and didnt wake hardly anyone. Not all things improve over time.

Cromolyolly: I don’t know what point you’re trying to make re. people with disabilities. If the alternatives (cycling, walking, public transport) are improved then that helps people who truly need to drive because the roads will be quieter. Also, safe cycling routes and decent public transport improve mobility for people whose medical conditions mean that they can’t drive.

Once again, this is about SOME people changing how they make SOME journeys. Absolutely not about making everybody cycle every journey.

My point was that even people who don’t live in a city could potentially change how they make some journeys.

It was a counter point to cromolyolly’s point that this sort of stuff is only a good idea if you’re able-bodied and live in a city.

I gave the example of someone who lives in or just outside a village in North Wales travelling to buy a pint of milk from a shop. They don’t live in a city, but it’s still a journey that could change.

Ah! Thank you.

Yes absolutely agree we all can do our bit for the very few that can’t it’s such a small percentage that it will have little effect.

Transport includes, but is not limited to, cars. Heavy vehicles, like buses and trucks contribute pollution up to 5x their proportion if the sector. So no they don’t unless you can find legitimate sources that say otherwise.

Transport is the largest sector of which cars are the largest contributor. My source? I work with the people who measure it.

Does too. EVs !over the pollution from the tailpipe to the smokestack. Stringent environmental regulations move production to places with none, or lax.

Who said anything about EVs?

You did see the all but, yes? Or are you just being obtuse via literism?

In yet another attempt at tedious whataboutery you missed the following.

Most people are able bodied
Most people live in urban areas
Most car journeys are very short

Most car journeys are very short

*even in rural areas*

Christ it’s like a 9am post rave conversation in here

anyone got any booze?

what was I talking about again?

Imagine the change if 50% of people did 50% of their current car journeys by some other means. car share, bus, train, bike, walk, mobility scooter, rollerblade, met via skype instead of in person, whatever.

If you can think of a reason why someone would still need to travel by car then great, they’re in the 75% of journeys that won’t change. But with a 25% reduction we’re back to a level of traffic last seen in 1988.(https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/road-traffic-statistics-tra#traffic-volume-in-miles-tra01)

It’s incredible how many people are against this, like it’s some kind of attack on their basic freedom. Yet they won’t let their kids out the door for fear of them being mown down by a car.

We live in a society that is effectively being strangled by its own success, by our own road networks. We’ve now reached a point where it has become evident that it’s not all positive, yet we’ve lived with it so long we’re blind to the negatives.

I’ve always loved cars and loved driving. I’m a bit of a petrolhead, in the same way I like bikes and other stuff. But we seriously need to rethink our values and reassess what is important. We have the technology to negate the need for travel in many circumstances, yet our ever evolving infrastructure continues to move in the opposite direction, ensuring we must travel further than ever.

It’s not idealism either. The solutions to some of these problems are already working in places around the world. They might not yet be perfect, and we have a long, long way to go to phase out cars, but the knowledge and experience exists right now, to make huge improvements.

I’m all for a world where we feel safe letting our kids out of the door.

Yeah it’s the kids I feel most sorry for tbh, if only we could think of some ideas to stop them being murdered.
(Deliberate pun on stop der kindermoort)
Rather than force people to cycle, we need the average joe/josephine to suddenly realise they don’t always need to use the car all the time.
Obviously, some journeys still need to be in cars, but many journeys could be done without cars.
It takes a societal change in attitude.
Just as a btw, one of the best things i saw last year was a young mum on an Ecargo bike, with 2 kids on the front, going home/past Edinburgh zoo, really made me smile, I hope it’s the thin edge of the wedge.

https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/disused-railway-stations-you-could-15949230

Well that sounds like progress

Public transport in early 80’s Liverpool was cheap and efficient, Mersyrail decent, would be good to see the network developed, look to be plenty of scope for re-opening stations.

I had to go to a site in London yesterday. My employer pretty much insisted we drive even after I bemoaned not using the train which would have been no more hassle so we left at the sparrows fart to get there and even then only just got there for 9am (50 mile trip). Was there for all of an hour and drove back only to get stuck in the horrific 2 lorry and car collision which shut the road for 2 and half hours! Got back at 2.30 after leaving the house at 6.45 for a trip that wasn’t necessary and could have been done by train…. it just seems to be entrenched in people’s mindset to drive no matter the cost or reasoning.

And as an additional more seeing the light

Roads lobby back-pedals on cars

“Late last year, Roads Australia led a delegation of public and private sector leaders to Tokyo, Seoul and Singapore to get a better understanding of how these cities are coping with population growth, transport and liveability.

“The conclusion we drew is that ordinary Australians, businesses and governments require an urgent and major change of mindset if we’re to maintain both our standard of living and our sanity.

“In essence, the Australian love affair with the car needs to come to an end. In its place, we need to invest massively and exponentially in the renewal and expansion of our public transport infrastructure and modes”, Mr Stuart-Watt said.