Viewing 40 posts - 441 through 480 (of 489 total)
  • Carrying a knife
  • chewkw
    Free Member

    Also in my part of the world if people are are threaten with a 6 inch fixed blade knife, the normal way of solving the threats (normally they don’t report to the police unless matter cannot be dealt with locally), is to bring in larger longer knife such as parang, or golok. LOL! Then they chase each other shouting with raise parang or golok. Interesting sight that. The rest of the locals would wait eagerly to be “entertained”. i.e. literally wait for the fight to begin and eagerly wait to be “amused”. Women would scream with their hands covering their eyes but watching it through the gaps between their fingers. However, village chief would normally have to settle the matter (locals still there watching but a bit disappointed by now)

    jca
    Full Member

    I need a laptop for my job but I dont generally need a knife.
    A chef on the other hand would struggle without several.

    What’s the chef going to do with all those laptops?

    jca
    Full Member

    billhooks

    Never Mind those. We’re talking about knives.

    billhooks

    Drac
    Full Member

    When she tried to get back on – Texas law was very different to Florida law! She was arrested & taken downtown and put in a cell with all the hos & junkies!

    Texas you say. Would have been better off buying an automatic rifle, she’d have been give an award.

    chewkw
    Free Member

    The whole point is you do not just reference the origin of the word, you try to find out what parliament intended by looking at what it said. Words can end up with unusual meanings as a result of this process. (As an aside, the law’s approach to meaning is that it always depends on ontext, so there is no one meaning of a word that the law must cleave to in all situations). So what might count as a weapon in parts of Asia is of little help to a court trying to interpret UK legislation.

    What is a court supposed to do when faced with a new statutory provision to apply to a particular set of facts? Laws need interpreting, it is unavoidable. And it is preferable that it is done in accordance with established principles, that is one aspect of what is meant be “the rule of law”.

    And it is not playing, peoples’ livelihoods and liberty may be at stake.

    True, true, I forgot about the interpretation of the UK legislation etc. D’oh! I agree. No wonder I only did so so in law module at Uni. LOL!

    I can imagine why a teen carrying a parang or golok in London, I mean where is the farm?

    greyspoke
    Free Member

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2024/9780348256871

    It is a draft amending SI and it talks of “article” and “weapon”.

    Damn I said I wasn’t going to look into it. You need to plug that amendment into the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (including any other amendments), to find out the full effect.

    chewkw
    Free Member

    Damn I said I wasn’t going to look into it.

    LOL! Crikey, that’s a lot of information just to carry or not to carry a knife. I learn something today. LOL!

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Difficult to argue with the stats if it’s based on the people convicted of doing the stabbing.

    True.

    Is that the case? Where are these statistics we’re referencing?

    Of course, as we all know on STW a motor vehicle is a weapon, so check your motor for sharp and pointy bits.

    Pointy bits on a car would be an MOT failure and unlawful to drive.

    beanum
    Full Member

    I haven’t read this whole thread, mainly because I live in Switzerland where knife carrying is a bit more liberal, possibly due to a more rural population and because the police carry guns?

    Anyway, my main reason for carrying a full size (but UK legal) SAK was for a bottle opener along with a blade, screwdriver whatever. I now carry a Victorinox Rambler everywhere as it’s the only? small SD sized SAK with a functional bottle opener.

    Rambler

    Ewan
    Free Member

    That draft is pretty clear. Def outlaws stuff like the greber I linked to earlier. Which is pretty stupid since carrying one of those in public was illegal anyway, and it’s a useful tool.

    Also helpfully defines how the blade is a measured which other legislation doesn’t.

    convert
    Full Member

    That draft is pretty clear. Def outlaws stuff like the greber I linked to earlier.

    Really – you read it like that? I don’t. How?

    I think you might be looking for a problem.

    Maybe I’m wrong – you’d hope it’ll becomes clear.

    Ewan
    Free Member

    It’s super clear isn’t it?

    2.—(1) The Schedule to the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988(3) is amended as follows.

    (2) In paragraph 1, after sub-paragraph (s) insert—

    “(sa)the weapon sometimes known as a “zombie-style knife” or “zombie-style machete”, being a bladed article with—
    (i)a plain cutting edge;
    (ii)a sharp pointed end; and
    (iii)a blade of over 8 inches in length (the length of the blade being the straight-line distance from the top of the handle to the tip of the blade),which also has one or more of the features specified in paragraph 1A and which is not a weapon that falls under paragraph 1(s);”
    (3) After paragraph 1, insert—

    “1A.—(1) For the purposes of paragraph 1(sa), the specified features are—

    (a)a serrated cutting edge (other than a serrated cutting edge of up to 2 inches next to the handle);
    (b)more than one hole in the blade;
    (c)spikes;
    (d)more than two sharp points in the blade (other than a sharp point of a kind specified in sub-paragraph (2)).

    It meets paragraph sa (i, ii, and iii) and of the specified features it meets item (a) – serrated edge.

    How can it be read differently. I don’t think I’m looking for a problem, I just wanted to know the definition and have now read it. As it happens my machete I use on brambles isn’t a combo one so is fine.

    easily
    Free Member

    I think I might convert to Sikhism, then I’d be allowed to carry a dirty great big Kirpan around with me.

    … not sure what they are like for cutting tomatoes.

    colournoise
    Full Member

    Likewise, as long as I am wearing my full kilt outfit I should be OK with my Sgian Dubh down my hose? Or would I need to somehow carry proof of my second generation Scots ancestry in order for it to count as national dress?

    More seriously, I get that it’s complex and trying to cover a huge range of use cases but the law around all this is mighty confusing. My lovely little Svord Peasant is probably legal (just less than 3″ and non locking in any practical sense) but my much more generally useful Leatherman Wave (deffo shorter blade than the Svord – among a whole load of other tools – but it locks) isn’t.

    2024 02 18 Svord 02

    2024 02 18 Svord 01

    Neither is anywhere near an EDC for me, but I’d be much more likely to be found out and about with the Wave on my person, especially if riding / trail building.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    Is there any distinction in law about what the ‘knife’ is made of ?.

    This is a Swedish butter knife, obviously for spreading, but some hardwoods can be given a reasonable edge and with the serrated edge on this example, Im sure something like a tomato or cheese would present little problem.

    images

    gecko76
    Full Member

    Posting for closure’s sake and thanks to the mods for deleting the forum entries while matters were resolved. My sister handed in grandad’s swordstick at the local police station today (it was too long for the knife deposit bin). Having been looking forward to inheriting it I’m actually glad it’s gone. Reckon it was probably picked up at a French flea market in the 70s (it had ‘India’ stamped into the blade) so of little value or sentimental interest.

    winston
    Free Member

    So me having a quick conversation with my workmate over a sliced tomato has directly led to several people changing their knife wielding habits and somebody actually handing the police a lethal heirloom…..the power of the internet never ceases to amaze.

    CountZero
    Full Member

    Thought I’d chuck this in, all three I’ve carried at some point or other…

    The modded Opinel I’ve never carried that often, having spent so much time getting the blade the shape I want it, I’m too afraid of losing it. The pruning knife on the right was my dad’s, and I don’t think there were many occasions when he didn’t have it in his pocket, but it’s rather bulky and it’s too precious to carry around, but I have used it in the garden occasionally.
    The Spiderco Tasman Salt in the middle I used to carry quite a lot, particularly when I was a volunteer Ranger for Sustrans. My section included about a mile or so of path along an old railway line, which typically had lots of hedges and bushes along both sides, and equally typically brambles and rose briars would grow up through the bushes, along the branches then dangle down like ten feet of biological barbed wire right into the faces of cyclists and walkers.
    Secateurs are awkward to use, the Tasman, designed for use on trawlers and crab and lobster boats for cutting through nylon netting and lines, is truly awesome for hacking through brambles, usually in one cut, maybe two or three if it’s thick. Cut through at the base, or as close as possible, then stretch up as high as possible, one cut and it’ll just stay there and die. Same with the stuff that grew out of the sides. I did have to take an axe to a fallen tree branch once, though.
    I wish I’d had it with me on a walk the other day, sodding brambles and briers are already growing across a lane I regularly use.

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    Modern lightweight fabrics stand no chance against brambles. They should be clear cut like any other weed.

    gecko76
    Full Member

    A further note to say that on the trip to see my mum the other weekend the Swiss Army Knife was used at various times to clean out the charging port of her mobile, divide a slice of tiffin and trim the turf around dad’s grave, all of which could have been done with the right tools but they weren’t to hand. I switched the scales for ones with a clip but in future it will be carried in a bag or internal pocket. But, the 91mm non-locking blade is 3.583 inches. Where does that leave me?

    ashhh
    Full Member

    These guys have a really clear explanation and are a knife specialist so probably more informed than most.

    https://www.whitbyandco.co.uk/pages/using-carrying-knives

    Its illigal to carry over 3 inch cutting edge without good reason, and the guidance is that general “i might use it for x” isnt good reason.

    Maybe buy a shorter bladeed one?

    johnx2
    Free Member

    blade is 3.583 inches. Where does that leave me?

    …risking looking like the guy who cares a bit too much about that all important extra 0.003 of an inch?

    Drac
    Full Member

    If your tool is that small every little counts.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    the 91mm non-locking blade is 3.583 inches. Where does that leave me?

    The law states that without good reason you cannot carry a knife:

    a) with a fixed blade, or one which can be converted into what is effectively a fixed blade by means of a locking mechanism, or

    b) with a blade longer than three inches, locking or not.

    Where it leaves you is carrying an illegal knife.

    thegeneralist
    Free Member

    now carry a Victorinox Rambler everywhere as it’s the only? small SD sized SAK with a functional bottle opener.

    I presume you live in thf french or Italian part of Switz?

    Any self respecting Teut learns to open bottles with a fag lighter/ spoon/ random object that comes to hand

    gecko76
    Full Member

    Right, so it comes down to if you’re caught carrying an illegal knife in the UK, then you’re in trouble. The likelihood of being caught, which I’d always assumed to be vanishingly small, really comes down to other people, eg on a railway carriage and something kicks off and you happen to get involved and it transpires you have something on your person which you shouldn’t.

    The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record? Earlier informed posts suggest Yes. I’m not talking about engaging in threatening behaviour, which is clearly illegal, just being found to be in possession (easier to avoid if not on show, ie not clipped in jeans pocket).

    simondbarnes
    Full Member

    The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?

    Yes

    dissonance
    Full Member

    The question is, in such a situation, are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?

    Possession of any knife over 3in or which is fixed (which includes lock knives) is an offence which has up to  4 years in prison plus a fine unless you have “good reason” to have it.

    Its not automatic but there is a good chance you will end up in court and so even if you do succeed in explaining to the court it was a good reason you will have had likely months or even years (given the creaking court system) of stress plus having to spend on the defence.

    Hence why I would go for a sub 3in folder if I did feel the need to carry one day to day. Its just not worth the hassle.

    Pierre
    Full Member

    Just my 2p worth – I _always_ used to carry a Swiss Army knife on me when I was younger. It was super useful! Screwdrivers, small blade, pokey thing to make holes bigger, tiny screwdriver to tighten my glasses, even the corkscrew… I wouldn’t have even dreamed of using it in a confrontation – I don’t understand how anyone can argue they “protect” themselves with an offensive weapon. Knives – and guns – are for attacking, not defending.

    But these days I always have this on my keyring. Same size as a key, has a tiny blade for opening packages / stripping wires / whatever, a tiny serrated section for cutting threads, a bottle opener, can opener (if desperate), mini flat head screwdriver and a cross head screwdriver. And has never been taken off me at an airport! (not that I’ve deliberately tried to take it through, I’ve just forgotten to remove it from my pocket enough times, and had no problems, that I don’t worry if I’ve left it in there).

    sweepy
    Free Member

    Any self respecting Teut learns to open bottles with a fag lighter/ spoon/ random object that comes to hand

    I’ve never understood why gadgets aimed at men include a bottle opener

    BoardinBob
    Full Member

    The likelihood of being caught, which I’d always assumed to be vanishingly small

    It’s about as likely as the earlier knife carrier’s fantasy about encountering a car on fire and rushing into the flames to cut the seatbelt

    Cougar
    Full Member

    are you automatically looking at a fine and/or custodial sentence, and a criminal record?

    Automatically? Perhaps not. An attending officer might see before them a fine upstanding middle-class middle-aged white bloke and conclude that actually, a telling-off might be more appropriate. If it were to go to court, the law works on a basis of “this is what we did last time” and adjusts from there; ie you will get the basic punishment unless there’s a reason to apply a more or less severe judgement.

    So, “automatically,” perhaps not, but there’s a lot of variables here which could easily be removed by carrying a SAK and leaving the machete at home, you’re basically hoping for goodwill. If as per your hypothetical scenario you were having your collar felt for being in the middle of a rammy then I expect that your chances of being told “off you go son, don’t do it again” might suddenly be dramatically diminished. The whole point of the legislation is to empower coppers to drag ne’er-do-wells off the streets for a clearly defined reason, bang to rights.

    blokeuptheroad
    Full Member

    I’ve never understood why gadgets aimed at men include a bottle opener

    Screenshot 2024-02-28 13.56.51

    dyna-ti
    Full Member

    It’s about as likely as the earlier knife carrier’s fantasy about encountering a car on fire and rushing into the flames to cut the seatbelt

    You arent actually grasping the situation.

    A car on fire can be one reason, freeing a trapped animal another, or the same reason. And is as relevant as opening a bottle of wine or cutting the packaging or whatever.

    There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term ‘reasonable excuse is’ but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.

    .

    You dont seem to understand that a reason can be a long list. I think thats ok, you cant be knowledgeable in everything, but the daily mail level of thinking is not helping anyones understanding.

    Heres the example of this.

    The law states that without good reason you cannot carry a knife:

    a) with a fixed blade, or one which can be converted into what is effectively a fixed blade by means of a locking mechanism, or

    b) with a blade longer than three inches, locking or not.

    Where it leaves you is carrying an illegal knife.

    Neither A nor B relate to the initial reason, which is the question. So asking the question, then putting down A and B is simply nonsensical. Those are simply the criteria of what a non legal knife is. and have nothing to do with the reason.

    .

    The reason for having a knife that is legal, can be any reason, and it doesnt have to be an everyday situation, it can be completely obscure in a one in 10 billion scenario. The point is a knife below a certain length doesnt n need a reason, and that is all there is to it.

    .

    So for example if a cop asks you what the reason for having a knife that is clearly below thew threshold, you can give the reason that it is below the length needed to make it illegal.

    .

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    The reason for having a knife that is legal, can be any reason, and it doesnt have to be an everyday situation, it can be completely obscure in a one in 10 billion scenario.

    Nope. It has to be a ‘good’ reason. The one in 10 billion scenario would not be considered a good reason by virtue of its obscurity & rarity . Otherwise when arrested you could just say, ‘if spiderman became entangled in his own web, I might be there to cut him free.’
    Don’t argue with me, it’s the judge you’d be arguing with.

    Ewan
    Free Member

    But these days I always have this on my keyring. Same size as a key, has a tiny blade for opening packages / stripping wires / whatever, a tiny serrated section for cutting threads, a bottle opener, can opener (if desperate), mini flat head screwdriver and a cross head screwdriver. And has never been taken off me at an airport! (not that I’ve deliberately tried to take it through, I’ve just forgotten to remove it from my pocket enough times, and had no problems, that I don’t worry if I’ve left it in there).


    @Pierre
    I wonder if that’s actually legal… The Criminal Justice Act 1988 (Offensive Weapons) Order 1988
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1988/2019 Section 1 (o)

    1. Section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (offensive weapons) shall apply to the following descriptions of weapons, other than weapons of those descriptions which are antiques for the purposes of this Schedule:

    (o) a disguised knife, that is any knife which has a concealed blade or concealed sharp point and is designed to appear to be an everyday object of a kind commonly carried on the person or in a handbag, briefcase, or other hand luggage (such as a comb, brush, writing instrument, cigarette lighter, key, lipstick or telephone);

    Given a key is one of the specific examples, I would assume it’s naughty.

    imnotverygood
    Full Member

    Don’t know if this has been posted before, but if not:

    Cougar
    Full Member

    There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term ‘reasonable excuse is’ but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.

    .

    You dont seem to understand that a reason can be a long list

    Evocative language aside, a reason has to be demonstrable. You may well have “extracting boy scouts from horses’ hooves” in your big long list o’ reasons to carry a knife but as far as a court would be concerned that’s not a reason, it’s an excuse.  If you were a farrier on your way to work, that may be a different matter.  If you’re lucky.

    Neither A nor B relate to the initial reason, which is the question. So asking the question, then putting down A and B is simply nonsensical.

    The law is quite clear. Any lack of understanding here is not mine.

    dissonance
    Full Member

    There seems to be a lot of confusion here of what the term ‘reasonable excuse is’ but those that clearly cant think of one are lauding the term about, but not actually understanding neither the question, or the definition.

    Go on then. Define it for us and provide us the supporting court cases where your definition worked. I am especially fascinated to see the one in ten billion reason working.

    The problem is there isnt a clear definition and so the only way it may get answered is in court. Which would be a pain in the arse even if the reason is accepted.

    Pierre
    Full Member

    @Ewan crikey, you may have a point, technically speaking. Although given that the “knife” part of it is about 3cm long, I’m not sure it could be considered particularly offensive as a weapon. Someone determined to cause harm could use _any_ key if they wanted. Or a pen. Or a rolled-up magazine, or all sorts of other items someone might normally carry on their person.

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