Hoping someone can give me a pointer or 2..

If I want to build cardio fitness so I can go faster while still at an all-day pace and recover faster at the top of climbs, is there a generally recognised rule? eg long intervals at threshold, loads of hill reps at max to exhaustion? Should you reduce longer rides while doing this?

My strength and long-ride endurance is ok/good but I’ve lost a chunk of cardio fitness recently. Doing enough long rides but less charging round on my ss at a higher pace means I’ve been lacking in ‘all-out then rest’ riding recently.

I do ride a lot and I’m trying to make something of the base I have over the next few months. I have an HRM but find I prefer working on perceived effort.

Apologies if this is a daft, wide-ranging Q – I know nothing about structured training.

Ride as fast as you can for as long as you can – repeat the next time you’re out.

You appear to have answered your own question…

You mention that you have lost something that you had and that you have also stopped doing some high intensity single speeding.

By the sounds of it a bit more high intensity low time workouts or build in some hill reps to help with the recovery.

just ride in your aerobic zones, I found 75% HRM rides did a lot for me.

I guess I did answer my q and recognise the SS efforts value, just not clear on more effective training.

If I can do an hour or 2 fairly constant pace at 75%, or I can do an hour or 2 of hill repeats (up to 90%-odd I guess, usuallly 3-5x each on 3 hills of varying grade, about 4 mins each), do they have similar effects; or is the HRM zones and time spent there more important, not the variation in intensity?
I don’t understand the difference between lactic system and cardio and zones either, I just think of ‘fitness’ – will look some info up.

Too easy to think ‘ride hard all the time’ but I end up knackered doing that!

In theory the hill reps would get you fitter, but you can’t ride that intensely all the time, you’ll wear yourself out.

Most training regimes (bar the time-crunched etc) are mostly steady rides with only a small proportion of intervals etc.

It’s all pretty straight forward. Your body has two systems to produce enegrgy to fuel your muscles. The aerobic system and anearobic. The aerobic system uses lower power levels but the body can sustain it for long periods as it draws its fuel from the body’s fat stores. The anerobic is a higher power system but the body can only use it for shorter bursts as the waste product of this system is lactic acid which is what makes your muscles hurt like hell. You can help your body recover faster through flushing out the lactic acid by doing intervals followed by a short period of recovery. All training should be basically simulating real world situations that you will experience in your regular riding/racing.

The zones are reflecting the two systems. The lower zones are very good for building aerobic capacity ie helping you go for longer and also fat burning. The higher zones are anaerobic and so making you go faster but in short bursts.

Al – pretty much what I was doing then, until the mud / winter road miles reduced my ss sessions.
Roter stern – So I need to do both, the 75% rides and more hill-hurts.

Thanks all. Was hoping it wasn’t too complicated )

aerobic exercise doesn’t run on fat only, or even predominantly. Why do folk get the bonk? Cos they’ve run out of glycogen, not fat.

You can make training as complex as you like, for me it takes too much fun out of riding, and I don’t think it matters until you are at a high level.

Cos they’ve run out of glycogen, not fat.

I know that too well ) Thought there was a bit of both in it. Bonk is glycogen depletion, then you’re limping along on fat only and it’s slow and ‘character-building’.

Totally agree on the fun aspect. Stopped ‘racing and training’ for that reason (bitd mid-pack junior, I learned / became slack quite early). Now I just want to do a big ride and I’m half-capable when I put some effort in. For the last big ride I ‘trained’ for I just did loads of road miles and climbs, in prep for the same. Got different ideas this year, not sure how to prepare apart from getting as fit as I can, within reason. I really didn’t want to do timed intervals.. Hill reps are about the limit.

It depends on when you want to feel at your fittest and where you are just now. I’ve got (road racing) goals, and training is very structured with 3 weeks building and an easy week ie 12, 13.5, 16, 8.5. I’ve spent the last 10-12 weeks in Z2 only and now building on that with some Z3 (tempo), threshold and hill efforts for racing in 8 weeks. I hate to admit it, but the Z2 stuff has done wonders for me.

You need the base first but its not a quick fix, then add in the top end stuff ie intervals.

^ I thought I remembered something about Z2 being wasted training time, either go hard or recover – out of context or just rubbish I expect from what you say. One of my ‘concerns’ is apart from some SS sessions, my riding is Z2/3/4 every time unless tired and doing a recovery spin, ie all over the place, just having fun. Zero structure but I end up putting in effort anyway.

I thought you could do blocks of mixed 100 mile steady-ish, hill sessions and Z3 in 7-10 days?
If you do 8 weeks of intervals to get to race-fit, do you cut down on the long rides then since you have the base already? I’m not too worried about lack of base miles.

Z2/3/4 every time unless tired and doing a recovery spin, ie all over the place, just having fun. Zero structure but I end up putting in effort anyway.

In theory that should get you fit – but are you really Z2-4? Check – I find Z2 hard to sustain for 2 hours – that’s after doing it for years.

The 4-week cycle is pretty standard/common AFAIK. If you start on intervals then yes they take it out of you so you miss out a longer slower ride. I’ve read it takes 6 weeks for training to actually bear fruit.

z2 is your base building zone and should be the one you train in if you want to improve your endurance.

z4 and 5 are your top ends and the ones you use intervals for and aim to improve your threasholds. z3 is the one that is commonly called the dead zone. I find if I’m riding with mates I yoyo all over the zones but pretty much average z3.

z2 is very difficult to ride in consistently as it is such a low HR – but when I did structured training this time last year made a massive difference to me.

Buy Friels book….

but are you really Z2-4? Check – I find Z2 hard to sustain for 2 hours – that’s after doing it for years.

Will do – used a HRM for a while ages ago but less idea now. Will dig it up. I thought Z2 is above recovery spins, ie you can chat in shorter sentances and aren’t really heavy-breathing; Z3 is ‘can’t talk much, need to breathe’ but can be kept up for a while; Z4 is ‘fecked in <20 seconds’? If so, yes, but maybe I’m z1-3 with some 4 on climbs.

But

z2 is very difficult to ride in consistently as it is such a low HR

I’m off to look up zones now. Maybe ‘dead zone’ is the wasted time thing I remember.

I thought Z2 was around 75%, I could be wrong.

You can make training as complex as you like, for me it takes too much fun out of riding, and I don’t think it matters until you are at a high level.

This ^^

75% seems to be Z2-3 border line from a few sites.

I was going off what I could remember from (I think) the Cardiosport book I got with my HRM.

Z1 = recovery
z2 = endurance
z3 = tempo
z4 = sub threshold
z5a – c = can’t remember off the top of my head.

Zones are based on threshold, not max HR,

Z3 is the one most people train in – too hard for endurance/recovery, not hard enough for other kinds of training (ie takes too much out of you/more recovery time needed and therefore eats into the next training session). A recovery spin is Z1 – usually has to be on the rollers for me, unless you live somewhere flat/no wind as it needs to be easy enough just to turn over the legs and no more. I recover from harder intervals in Z2, unless its hill sprints in which case its Z1. Don’t ask me why, i don’t ask my coach why, i just do as he says. It works, i get results so i don’t really care about the why.

I personally cut down on long miles because my races are no longer than 60miles so i focus on speed, handling skills, hills and sprints pretty much once I’m out of the build period.

Friel’s book is pretty much the principles my coach follows. It explains it well.

I’m of the opinion that all the training stuff has been ‘proved’ on doped riders and has little cross-over to us non-doped. Good example – Conconi test.

BTW, I doubt very much you can train effectively to PE. PE effort (for me) varies day to day. I couldn’t hold Z2 (which has a range of 11 beats) without a HRM.

PE is ?

flapjack, I thought all dope does is mean they can train more /recover more / work harder, the gains are training gains all the same? Anyway, I’m never going to be a cat1/2 challenger never mind a pro roadie, don’t need to be able to hold that kind of intensity. But I can ride a pretty long way at a reasonable pace and climb ok for my weight, so I just want to make the best of what I have before the summer. I reckon good training will mean I can go further on the same energy, that’s all.

Did I mention buy Friel’s book?

PE = Perceived effort

Some coaches swear by it as HR training can be effected by things like caffeine / alcohol / illness. Power meters are better though.

cynical al, your not talking about the same ‘zone2’ I am then, zone2 for me is sub 140 HR (my max is 202, LT threashold 178) basically if I come across a steep hill I have to get off to prevent the HR going into z3. Really takes alot of will power and can only really be done riding on your own. Takes alot of fun out of riding too.

Basically, in a vastly simplified nutshell, if you want to get quicker you need to do a number of base sessions, 2 or 3 2 to 3hr z2 with 1 or 2 1 hr interval sessions where you thrash yourself per week.

You will see massive improvements if you are going from “just going for a hard ride”

You can then make it more complicated with pedalling drills / hill climbs / sprints etc..

Give it a go. Keep a ride diary. Download strava. Plot out a decent test loop. Give it 3 months (goes quick…) and watch your times tumble.

Agree with dt78 about z2 – it needs discipline and solo riding – you really needs to back off at times.

I created a similar thread last week which didnt really alter my understanding which is, z2 for distance, endurance and mental recovery, z4/5 for power. This agrees with the above.

Currently on 3 rides a week – Tuesdays intervals on a Cat 4 climb, Thursday z2, weekend club ride. I’m still not sure how long I should be riding z2 for to be beneficial though :-/

cynical al, your not talking about the same ‘zone2’ I am then, zone2 for me is sub 140 HR (my max is 202, LT threashold 178) basically if I come across a steep hill I have to get off to prevent the HR going into z3. Really takes alot of will power and can only really be done riding on your own. Takes alot of fun out of riding too.

I’d have thought your zone2 top was 158 unless I’ve misunderstood this?
http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2009/11/quick-guide-to-setting-zones.html

Did I mention buy Friel’s book?

Aye, will do. If it’snot too structured )

Basically, in a vastly simplified nutshell, if you want to get quicker you need to do a number of base sessions, 2 or 3 2 to 3hr z2 with 1 or 2 1 hr interval sessions where you thrash yourself per week.

You will see massive improvements if you are going from “just going for a hard ride”

You can then make it more complicated with pedalling drills / hill climbs / sprints etc..

Give it a go. Keep a ride diary. Download strava. Plot out a decent test loop. Give it 3 months (goes quick…) and watch your times tumble.

I have 3 months.. and I ride solo mostly. Strava is a step too far tho ) PE seems good to me since I want to be able to pace myself over a longer distance, should use the HRM for now.
I’m going from 1x 6-8hr long steady with some efforts (SS or road), 2 or 3x 2hr mixed generally about Z2 with some harder efforts, and maybe 1 short, very slow (or very hard in spring/summer) ride a week. No idea of time in each zone etc. I thought I needed to keep up the long rides for endurance sake.

I created a similar thread last week which didnt really alter my understanding which is, z2 for distance, endurance and mental recovery, z4/5 for power. This agrees with the above

Off to search.. That’s about all I knew/understood before, hoping to keep it almost that simple.

My Z2 is from Friel IIRC, my max was around 200, Z2 rides were 150-160 or so

Jameso my thread is also based on riding time ie what should I do in limited time to achieve x.

Physiologically every reference tells you that z2 builds the small capillarys / lung branches that endurance requires, z4/5 power and muscular performance.

So I decided to do the latter early in the week, z2 later (giving me some recovery before my “competitive ” club ride at the weekend.

^ Makes sense. I’ve always based my rides on that kind of idea but maybe not enough variation in pace, or patterns over the year, for effective fitness gain. ie trying to keep quick but without doing any more than riding for fun.

For some reason I can’t cut and paste the results from my last Vo2 metabolic test… it gives a nice description of each zone… if you are really serious about understanding this find a coach who can test you properly and give you tailored advice. Think it cost me £150 and was well worth it.

For me my zones are:
z1 under 125
z2 125 – 140
z3 140 – 165
z4 165 – 178
z5 178+
max 202

I know from race experience if my HR tops 180 I have a few minutes at that pace before performance really drops. I’ve set the alarm on my garmin to warn me. Interestingly though, despite what the tests says I have completed races of 1.5 hrs averaging around 178 which if you read the zones descriptions isn’t right. But as said HR is effected by many things so a guide rather than rule.