Seemingly like everyone else I’m considering a new 29er hardtail. Having looked around there are lightweight cross country bikes with Sids and rims made of tin foil, and bikes like the Bird Zero or On One Scandal. Sonder have the Ti option covered, but there doesn’t seem to be a carbon equivalent anywhere. The Transmitter is too far the other way.

I’m not sure I actually want a plastic bike, but it’d be nice to try one and compare to the aluminium alternative.

So, in time honoured fashion, please recommend me a 120-140mm carbon 29er hardtail designed to crunch miles but also strong enough for a biff to smash through rock gardens and land heavy.

There isn’t a lot of choice, I’ve got a Transition Vanquish that’ll do what you want. I’m running 130mm pikes but light wheels, so not sure about the rock garden smashing or heavy landing bit.

Voodoo Bizango Carbon? Might be an unfashionable choice – but actually looks like good value for money…

Not saying it will smash through rock gardens but will crunch the miles, have put a dropper on since pic taken.
Also there is the Chameleon in carbon.
Santa Cruz Highball 120 fork

Genesis are selling their mantle range cheap at the moment and singletrack gave them good reviews

Thanks all. The Voodoo is indeed a bargain, but I’d end up replacing lots of it… although complete bike is less than some frames. At first glance the Genesis Mantle and the Santa Cruz fall into the lightweight category, unless upgraded. Transition Vanquish looks almost perfect, but does anyone actually sell them?

Don’t they do a 29″ Santa Cruz Chameleon these days?

The Transition would be on my list. If you fit a medium to XL frame Triton cycles have them (you have to select a size and colour option for it to tell you it’s in stock).

carbon 29er Chameleon comes in Brown & Black this year £1399 frameset, looks alright for Craig.

SC Chameleon, Alu one and it’s a great bike

Saracen Zenith Carbon frame or completes are a good price at the moment.

I have one of those aforementioned Genesis Mantles, bought as a complete bike in April 2018. Both the full bikes and frames are discounted at the moment; the frame-only is down from £1,500 to £600 in small and medium sizes.

It’s based around 2.4 tyres, dropper post and 120mm forks. However, the factory builds are on the racier side with 2.2 tyres, rigid post and 100mm forks. I’m actually really happy with my “XC race” build, but it’s good to know it could be adapted to a more trail-ish build.

Mine replaced a Transition Scout 18 months ago and I absolutely love it. It’s been ridden on all sorts of terrain and I’ve not felt held back in any way after coming from a full-bounce bike, while I’m hugely quicker uphill and on the flat.

A final note on sizing… With no Genesis sizing charts being available at the time, I bought a Medium based on my experience of geometry and measurements. Genesis now publish a sizing chart that would put me (at 182cm) between a Large and XL!! I do wonder if it’s a mistake, as my Medium is a good fit, albeit with the saddle pushed back on the inline seatpost.

Ibis DV9 would be my choice

The Chameleon might be the only one you can realistically get a demo on, if that’s what you were after.

Mate has a Chameleon in aubergine. He loves it so much, he’s now got a jersey to match

And as an aside – Mountain Trax in Wokingham were brilliant at getting him a demo

The lack of a wider range of carbon trail hardtail 29ers is a bit of a mystery to me. Such bikes make so much sense, with XC courses getting ever more technical and everyone must have gotten the message by now about longer slacker. Put some fast rolling 2.4 or 2.5 rear tyre on and you’ve got such a versatile bike.

Here’s my list:

– Light (duh carbon, but I don’t need sliding dropouts, so Chameleon is heavy)
– Decent reach.
– 65-66 unsagged headangle at 130mm or at least no integrated headset so it will take an angleset to get there. (Saracen Zenith can’t take an angleset).
– 425-435mm chainstays. 414mm chainstays are great for manualling all day but not for creeping up very steep climbs. (So no Honzo CR, Vanquish is close enough)
– Clearance for at least 2.4 tyres. 2.5 or even 2.6 is a bonus.
– Compliant as possible rear end.

I would love a Carbon Scandal or Sonder Signal, for now the Vanquish is closest, but quite expensive.

Just been out on my carbon chameleon and although at the mo it’s in 27.5+ guise, it’s a great ride. Handles anything and feels very confident on the downs.

Bought mine as frame only and put some 140mm 29” boost forks on. Will try it in 29” mode soon but so far I’d say it’s the best hard tail I’ve had In 30+ years.

Might be too much at the XC end of the market but the Giant XTC Advanced is versatile. I really like mine in 650+ mode and 130 forks but it’s good as a proper 29er too at 100. Cons are that it maybe a tad short by current fashion plus it’s 27.2 seatpost and no dropper routeing.

– 65-66 unsagged headangle at 130mm or at least no integrated headset so it will take an angleset to get there. 

I’ve got a 140mm airshaft for the pikes in the house. I’ll fit it along with and try a -2 slackset on my Vanquish in the near future. For my riding I’m pretty happy with how it is at the moment, but it’s fun to mix things up a bit.

I’ve been looking for something like this to replace my mk1 Solaris- I think everything I was considering has been mentioned above, with the possible exception of the Arc8 (although that’s at the XC end of what you’re looking at). Ended up thinking I’ll probably just get a newer Solaris and spend the difference in cash on a second lightweight wheel set. Or not spend it. The chameleon c was in the running but doesn’t appear to save much weight over the ally, which isn’t that much lighter than the Solaris, which I prefer on pretty much all other counts.

I loved my carbon 456 for exactly the reason that it was light enough to ride fast all day but capable enough to stick big tyres on and take for an uplift, but I think the reason there aren’t more bikes like this is that most people looking for a trail bike would add rear suspension above a certain travel, while people looking for a winch and plummet hardtail aren’t concerned about weight that much. It’s a shame as I think it’s missing a trick, but that’s been well covered already.

I hired a KTM Myroon from Cycles Aixperts (really cool shop in Aix les Bains) just over a week ago.
My first go on a carbon 29er and it was quite awesome , up & down. If i was in the market , I would seriously consider one.

I’ve just built up an Ibis DV9 and it’s ace. Fairly light, feels fast and will take 2.6 tyres and a 120mm fork.

I’ve got a 120mm SID on mine as i’ll be using it for long distance stuff rather than a trail ripper. Going to replace the carbon post with my dropper though soon.

Transition Vanquish
Close to perfect, chainstay with 420mm on the shortside for allround use, but close enough.
67.5° 120mm unsagged. Will take an angleset to slacken it.

Kona Honza CR
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_cr_frame.cfm
Too short chainstays at 415mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Santa Cruz Chameleon
https://www.santacruzbicycles.com/en-US/chameleon
Drop out system compromises price to weight ratio, but nice for those who want it.
67.3° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Ibis DV9
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9
Head angle a bit steep for rough trails, but will take an angleset so that could be fixed with that and an 130mm fork. Nice lightweight frame as well at 1.200kg.
Seat tube length a bit long compared to the reach number (limiting droppers a bit).

Saracen Zenith Carbon
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Voodoo Bizango Carbon
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-carbon-mountain-bike-s-m-l-xl
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work. No frame only option yet.

Canfield EPO:
http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/epo-carbon-hardtail-29er
Too short chainstays at 414mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
67.9° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

For me the DV9 or Vanquish would be an option with an angleset.

I’ve got a 140mm airshaft for the pikes in the house. I’ll fit it along with and try a -2 slackset on my Vanquish in the near future. For my riding I’m pretty happy with how it is at the moment, but it’s fun to mix things up a bit.

If it would end up being the Vanquish it would probably end up with a 130mm fork and a 1.5 angleset. That would be slack enough for me.

I loved my carbon 456 for exactly the reason that it was light enough to ride fast all day but capable enough to stick big tyres on and take for an uplift, but I think the reason there aren’t more bikes like this is that most people looking for a trail bike would add rear suspension above a certain travel, while people looking for a winch and plummet hardtail aren’t concerned about weight that much. It’s a shame as I think it’s missing a trick, but that’s been well covered already.

My wife had a C456 and loved it. My friend now has it and he’s still loving it.

I’m a bit puzzled by it all to be honest. Very few reviews on the above bikes. It almost seems if companies don’t want to make the effort to get these bikes into peoples minds. It takes a bit of imagination/experience to “get” this type of bike. Reviews do help in that regard. Perhaps they are afraid people will start to take it into too extreme terrain and break it, leading to warranty claims. Perhaps that’s why they keep it with within 120mm forks and moderate head angles to discourage people from taking it too far and getting bad publicity and a lot of warranty hassle?

Yet a bike like this has so many uses:
-XC bike
-Endurance bike
-Winter bike (next to you fully)
-Local bike (if your fully dulls your local trails too much)
-Perfect bike for people who like to climb themselves in the mountains
-All-round trail ripper which will do the miles as well.

Very few reviews on the above bikes. It almost seems if companies don’t want to make the effort to get these bikes into peoples minds

I suspect it’s more that magazines don’t see them as the sort of frame/bike that will appeal to enough of their readers?

I suspect it’s more that magazines don’t see them as the sort of frame/bike that will appeal to enough of their readers?

Might be a chicken or egg thing?

The Vanquish is a really fun bike, been very popular but yeah totally under represented by TR in terms of reviews etc. Stock is getting really low and Transition are not making any more, which is a huge shame!

2018 Transition Vanquish Frame

Pivot Les?

Stock is getting really low and Transition are not making any more, which is a huge shame!

The initial pricing put it out of reach for most potential buyers. Even discounted it’s still pricey, but it’ll be one of those bikes that gets appreciate when it’s to late to get one.

Which is weird because £1600 seems fairly well accepted for an XC carbon hardtail, but change the riding style a bit and it suddenly becomes too much. I guess it comes down to this sort of bike usually being a second or third ride for most people. My girlfriend has used one as her race bike for a few years, had quite a few podiums in marathon racing and a couple of SXCs.

Any excuse to share a picture – https://www.instagram.com/p/BgvfEe7lvRG/?igshid=1y1lchpkqaiue

Updated the list with pics and apparently the carbon Bizango at 67, is one degree slacker than the aluminium, so altered that as well. That one just moved a bit higher on my list.

Transition Vanquish
https://www.transitionbikes.com/bikes_vanquish.cfm

Close to perfect, chainstay with 420mm on the shortside for allround use, but close enough.
67.5° 120mm unsagged. Will take an angleset to slacken it.
Up to 2.4 tire clearance

Production has ended.

Kona Honza CR
https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_cr_frame.cfm

Too short chainstays at 415mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.
Tire clearance: 2.25?

Santa Cruz Chameleon

Drop out system compromises price to weight ratio, but nice for those who want it.
67.3° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.
Tire clearance: depends on rear axle position

Ibis DV9
https://www.ibiscycles.com/bikes/dv9

Head angle a bit steep for rough trails, but will take an angleset so that could be fixed with that and an 130mm fork. Nice lightweight frame as well at 1.200kg.
Seat tube length a bit long compared to the reach number (limiting droppers a bit).
Not the most compliant frame.
Up to 2.6 tire clearance

Saracen Zenith Carbon
https://www.saracen.co.uk/bike/zenith-carbon

68° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Tire clearance?

Voodoo Bizango Carbon
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bikes/mountain-bikes/voodoo-bizango-carbon-mountain-bike-s-m-l-xl

67° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work. No frame only option yet.

Tire clearance?

Canfield EPO:
http://canfieldbrothers.com/frames/epo-carbon-hardtail-29er

Too short chainstays at 414mm, makes the front wheel go light on steep climbs and reduces tire clearance too much.
67.9° 120mm unsagged. Has integrated headset, so can’t take an angleset. For those that want slacker, won’t work.

Tire clearance: ~2.35

For me the DV9 or Vanquish would be an option with an angleset. The Bizango could’ve been slacker but would be good enough for me with a 130mm fork.

Ooh, I’d forgotten it but if you can get it over here there’s a diamondback carbon ht that might fit the bill.

Cs645 – some nice bikes there, but why get so obsessive over 5mm differences in chainstay length?

I’ve been riding home made 29er frames with chainstays between 395 and 410mm and never had issues with front wheel lift climbing steep stuff.

Ooh, I’d forgotten it but if you can get it over here there’s a diamondback carbon ht that might fit the bill.

On their site I only see a carbon 27.5 plus hardtail and a 100mm XC one?

Cs645 – some nice bikes there, but why get so obsessive over 5mm differences in chainstay length?

I’ve been riding home made 29er frames with chainstays between 395 and 410mm and never had issues with front wheel lift climbing steep stuff.

For me between 425-440mm is okay. More is unnecessary on hardtail and less I indeed get a bit anxious about climbing and tire clearance. A 2.5 tire with sub 420mm chainstays normally won’t work.

I’ve had a Genesis core with 420mm rear, my wife had a C456 at 150mm (I’ll admit both had highish BB’s compromising their climbing). Both bike were not that nice to do long seated climbs on. You had to lean so far forward your back started to hurt and maintaining front wheel pressure was quite challenge.

Super nice you have some home made frames, which I had the skills to do built my own.

If you say you never had problems with climbing with 395-410mm chainstays I wonder about a few things:

– Do you climb really steep stuff sitting or standing?
– How tall are you?
– How far forward or rearward is your foot placed on the pedals?
– What’s the BB height, effective seat tube angle on those bikes?

I think it comes as stock with plus but will take 29.

Also think about the trek stache- crazy short chain stays but they sort of cancel out with the big wheels.

Always good to talk about frames :-). Nice to see that you’ve tried lots and obviously think about what is going on.

Obviously frames are a personal thing. Originally my short rear 29ers were for singlespeed in steep places (eg south Lakes) so lots of standing climbing. This was in early days of 29 and I wanted something different to the then norm of long rear and steep front.

Gradually they’ve all been run 1×10/11 and never failed to get up anything “rideable” in UK, Pyrenees, Alps, Czech etc (mostly sat down I guess). Now usually geared as the kids are fast xc racers and I simply can’t keep up on ss anymore 🙂

Bb heights are probably medium. Seat angles unfashionable slack – around 72 deg effective (curved tube so vertical at the bb and 66-67 deg after the bend). Pedal position normal spd axle across ball of foot. Height 5’10”.

If buying something then would probably be Transition, Ibis or Chameleon.

Each frame iteration has gone longer and slacker at the front but kept rear short. Cocked up the latest one so rear clearance is tight – only 2.2″ at 410mm.

I would post some pictures but they aren’t carbon so don’t want to derail the thread 🙂 We did get a NOS Whyte carbon 29c frame for one of the lads from Torq’s clearout for about £400 which was a bit of a bargain.

A few of my frame photos here

Another El Mariachi dies

I was also going to say that nobody ever mentions stay length as an issue with Trek Stache.

The Ibis DV9 is plenty “compliant”. So much more than the Pace RC529, Voodoo Hoodoo, Commencal Meta, Inbred, Cube Reaction etc.

It’s the smoothest hardtail I’ve ridden, and that’s with 2.25 tyres fitted. Going to try it with some bigger Schwalbe rubber soon.

Always good to talk about frames :-). Nice to see that you’ve tried lots and obviously think about what is going on.

Obviously frames are a personal thing. Originally my short rear 29ers were for singlespeed in steep places (eg south Lakes) so lots of standing climbing. This was in early days of 29 and I wanted something different to the then norm of long rear and steep front.

Gradually they’ve all been run 1×10/11 and never failed to get up anything “rideable” in UK, Pyrenees, Alps, Czech etc (mostly sat down I guess). Now usually geared as the kids are fast xc racers and I simply can’t keep up on ss anymore 🙂

Bb heights are probably medium. Seat angles unfashionable slack – around 72 deg effective (curved tube so vertical at the bb and 66-67 deg after the bend). Pedal position normal spd axle across ball of foot. Height 5’10”.

If buying something then would probably be Transition, Ibis or Chameleon.

Each frame iteration has gone longer and slacker at the front but kept rear short. Cocked up the latest one so rear clearance is tight – only 2.2″ at 410mm.

Cool. Maybe I will revise my opinion on the desired length of the chainstays after some other bikes as well, but for now I remain cautious.

I always find it interesting that reviewers talk about chainstay length or reach but never seem to consider foot position on the pedals. The difference between a “XC” under the ball of your feet or position towards the middle on flat pedals easily means cm’s difference. With the equal body position your saddle should move with your feet increasing the needed reach and reducing the required chainstay length. But your right, let’s not derail the thread too much. 🙂

The Ibis DV9 is plenty “compliant”. So much more than the Pace RC529, Voodoo Hoodoo, Commencal Meta, Inbred, Cube Reaction etc.

It’s the smoothest hardtail I’ve ridden, and that’s with 2.25 tyres fitted. Going to try it with some bigger Schwalbe rubber soon.

I can’t edit the list. so will update it in a while if I have more info. A pity the Bizango carbon is not (yet) available frame only.

I didn’t realise there was a carbon Bizango till I read this. Looks decent for 1k too!