Car 'road tax' discs…

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  • Car 'road tax' discs…
  • clubber
    Member

    …are going

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-25223631

    I note that in the comments it didn’t take long for cyclists to get a mention 🙂

    bencooper
    Member

    Dammit, that’s my idea for bike stickers shaped like tax discs scotched, then 😉

    clubber
    Member

    I know, I did think that 🙂

    I am a bit surprised though since I figured that people would report cars with out of date tax but maybe in reality that doesn’t happen and they’re really identified by not being SORN’d or by police and ANPR in their cars.

    rocketman
    Member

    Hurrah!

    Now I now longer have to carry my motorbike tax disc around in my wallet

    Slight pain in the arse, working in a garage I’ve had instances were the customer has brought an untaxed car in, no problems if you know/spot it but….

    whatnobeer
    Member

    Slight pain in the arse, working in a garage I’ve had instances were the customer has brought an untaxed car in, no problems if you know/spot it but….

    People who need check just need to integrate an extra step in their system to run an online check. Ie when the invoice gets done or when the car gets booked in. Shouldnt take long to do.

    Premier Icon mintimperial
    Subscriber

    They should just ditch it altogether and whack the difference onto fuel, which would reflect the impact of individual vehicle emissions more accurately. I bet it’d save an absolute fortune in admin costs and whatnot, too. (Won’t happen because putting up fuel costs is political suicide, obviously, I know.)

    Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea, I’d be interested to know if I’ve missed some reason why VED is charged separately at a fixed rate.

    clubber
    Member

    The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn’t reflect damage done to roads – eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it’s vehicle tax, I guess not road tax 🙂

    mrmo
    Member

    Origin of car tax: Commons in 1888
    Chancellor George Goschen: Apart from the Carriage Tax, which is a tax mainly on the more luxurious carriages – carriages, used for pleasure – there is at present no tax on any other vehicles, however much they may destroy the roads.

    We propose to put a duty of £1 a-year upon every vehicle exceeding 10 cwt. in weight, a very moderate limit to take.

    Members will acknowledge that the principle that all those who use the roads should pay for them, and should pay in some proportion to the wear and tear that they cause, is just. But I have not yet exhausted the subject. We propose, also, to put a very small Wheel Tax upon every vehicle.

    Colonel Nolan, MP for Galway North: Not on carts?

    Chancellor Goschen: Yes. We propose a duty of 2s. 6d. per wheel upon all carts over 2 cwt.

    Colonel Nolan: Oh!

    How many read this bit….

    Car tax exists to pay for the damage cars do! How much damage does a bike do?

    clubber
    Member

    Isn’t that actually road tax – you know, when it actually existed…

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    So VED has finally caught up with TV licencing… well not until next October, but the whole paying by DD and allowing people to do it monthly rather than every 6/12 months only thing is hardly ground breaking…

    TBH its way overdue, the disc is basically just a receipt that you put on display, and the Rozzers and insurers more often than not will be interrogating the DVLA database with the car’s Reg’ number rather than actually bothering to look through a windscreen…

    I’m sure cyclists will still be accused of not paying our fair share of “Road Tax” round bit of paper on display or not…

    clubber
    Member

    How much damage does a bike do?

    IIRC if a bike was £100 tax then a car would be £10k 🙂

    mrmo
    Member

    The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn’t reflect damage done to roads – eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it’s vehicle tax, I guess not road tax

    To a point how much damage does a truck do and then what is the mpg of a standard HGV? Might encourage more efficient trucks as fuel costs would rise.

    Gets round the some of the stupid fixed costs of owning a car. People say trains/buses cost more, forgetting that they have the insurance, VED, HP/Loan/PCP/etc to cover as well as the fuel for the journey. Also gets round having to pay some costs for a car even if you don’t use it

    Premier Icon the-muffin-man
    Subscriber

    Osborne is evil – has he not thought about all those people who are employed making printed tax disc holders!

    And how am I supposed to know when I can shop an annoying neighbour in to the police?

    Premier Icon mintimperial
    Subscriber

    The only downside I can think of adding it to fuel tax is that it doesn’t reflect damage done to roads – eg a truck driving a stretch of road will do more damage than a car driving over it, say 50 times (damage is proportional to axle weight to power of 4 IIRC). But then it’s vehicle tax, I guess not road tax

    Ah, yes. That’s true. Oh well.

    IIRC if a bike was £100 tax then a car would be £10k

    The calculation I saw came out nearer to £4 million for a Mondeo…

    Premier Icon techsmechs
    Subscriber

    Helmets to compulsory and HIV Vests as well.

    Looks like we need some kind of special vest too…. TBF at the bottom of this posters rant he mentions something about a brighter tomorrow with UKIP in place….

    mrmo
    Member

    Isn’t that actually road tax – you know, when it actually existed…

    Yes, but as most? motorists seem not to be aware it has changed, might be worth reminding them of why it was introduced? At the same time reminding them it got dumped in 1937 and is now based on the pollution you cause.

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Always thought it was weird that you get a taxdisc but not an MOT disc.

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Subscriber

    Will more cars be cloned now?

    I’ve not been displaying my ‘tax’ disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn’t even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

    postierich
    Member

    That’s a shame always felt quite good whilst queuing for my tax exempt disc for my vehicle 🙂

    whatnobeer
    Member

    I’ve not been displaying my ‘tax’ disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn’t even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

    My tax disc holder is a bit damaged at the bottom and disc fell out and slipped down the dash. I didn’t even notice, but one of my neighbours must of done as the next time I got in the van I had a note on the window asking my call the police station so they could have a chat about my car tax. The guy I spoke to had checked it on the database, saw it was taxed and gave me a very friendly reminder that I had to display the disc. All very genial and friendly, no worries.

    Does show that some folk do keep an eye on tax discs, and I’m sure that if I hadn’t been taxed I would of been a bit more serious.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    A missed opportunity for abolition. The tax system should be simplified so as to be cheaper to collect and more transparent. Everything like insurance tax, air passenger tax, BBC licence fee, road tax etc should be abolished. Collect individual tax through fuel duty, VAT, and income tax. In fact get rid of national insurance as well since it is now just another tax as anyone can claim most benefits without ever having paid NI.

    clubber
    Member

    And I’ve just remembered that I just recently bought new tax disc holders for my and Mrs Clubber’s cars as I got fed up with the old ones falling off all the time. Dammit. That’s £4 wasted! 🙂

    I’ve not been displaying my ‘tax’ disc for about 6 months. not been stopped yet. wasn’t even noticed on my MOT (whether they check that or not?).

    They don’t.

    I’ve MOT’d my MG the last few years just for the sake of giving it a run as I’ve not had time to use it, check the SORN is upto date, and drive it in.

    You need MOT and insurance to get tax, but not the other way round (otherwise you’d be stuffed if one expired before the other).

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    They should just ditch it altogether and whack the difference onto fuel, which would reflect the impact of individual vehicle emissions more accurately. ….
    Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea,

    Oooh ooh *puts hand up* me sir, me…

    The point of Car Tax is that it is a “nudge” to push people towards buying cars that produce lower emissions.

    If you are choosing between two cars then £20 a year for Band B versus £125 for Band E will “nudge” many people towards choosing the Band B car.

    But if you roll that cost into fuel then you are only talking about ~80 litres of unleaded over the course of a year. So now it is a choice between say a 35.7mpg vs 34.7mpg car which is far less compelling even though it may amount to the same cost over a year.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Origin of car tax: Commons in 1888

    Surely that is the origin of the road fund license, which was abolished 50 odd years later.

    poly
    Member

    So VED has finally caught up with TV licencing… well not until next October, but the whole paying by DD and allowing people to do it monthly rather than every 6/12 months only thing is hardly ground breaking…

    I’m not sure he’s thought that through. There are a lot of people find themselves in court for not having insurance because their policy is cancelled when DD’s fail. He’s either going to end up with less efficient collections OR put an extra load on the courts (at a cost to the govt – which is probably not met through fines)

    Someone give me a reason why this is a bad idea, I’d be interested to know if I’ve missed some reason why VED is charged separately at a fixed rate.

    I’ve suggested it for a long time; however there is one “advantage” of the existing system – you need to show you have insurance and MoT at that point in time – its not ideal but it does force everyone to get their shit in order once or twice a year.

    Shame there isn’t a discount for not having the admin associated with paper discs.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    People who need check just need to integrate an extra step in their system to run an online check. Ie when the invoice gets done or when the car gets booked in. Shouldnt take long to do.

    Pushes extra expense onto small businesses though.

    One of the top comments on the BBC made this point:

    I am a Valet driver who regularly drives peoples cars on public roads (20 – 30 a day), how will I know now if I’m driving an untaxed vehicle? at the present time NO DISC = NO DRIVE. will the law change to allow me a ‘get out of jail free card’ if I’m caught out? I doubt it!

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Subscriber

    Always thought it was weird that you get a taxdisc but not an MOT disc.

    MOT disc is exactly what you get in Germany. Well a seal on the number plate, which conveniently tells you when the next one is due. Presumably that check also does check valid insurance / tax, or could, if it doesn’t.

    Although MOT in Germany is every 2 years, and tax is a bill once per year.

    clubber
    Member

    Wouldn’t any penalty for that apply to the owner, not the driver?

    Insurance technically could be an issue but I’d expect insurance to change to account for that since car tax has no bearing on road worthiness (I know the link to MOT but it’s still no proof of it) and they don’t check for MOT before valet driving, do they?

    Driving Without Tax

    whatnobeer
    Member

    Pushes extra expense onto small businesses though.

    It does, but not a very big one, surely. How long and how much expense does it take to plug in a reg number to a website or an app?

    Wouldn’t any penalty for that apply to the owner, not the driver?

    You would expect so, but I can see anything that says for sure, just that the fine will be sent to the registered keeper.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    How long and how much expense does it take to plug in a reg number to a website or an app?

    That depends what the government decide to charge for access I think.

    If it is free (as it should be) then fair enough, but I doubt the Tories will miss a chance to make some money on this.

    bigyinn
    Member

    Im quite pleased, Im fed up with our disc holder peeling itself off the windscreen all the time!

    Premier Icon cookeaa
    Subscriber

    I still quite like the idea of some sort of additional VED fuel duty, any way you cut it a more environmentally unfriendly vehicle or one which weighs a lot and hence also returns poor MPG will get hit harder than a teeny tiny, light weight vehicle with a minimal MPG,

    It hits drivers who are a bit heavy with their Right foot harder, It hits people who make lots of unnecessary journeys by car…

    Those who drive efficient, lighter weight IC engined vehicles, who make minimal use of their motorized transport and drive sensibly when the do, will pay proportionately less “VED” as they consume less fuel…

    The only group it is perhaps not ideal for are those who might get some sort of VED exemption at present, for instance those with specific disabilities, and as the “Tax” is taken at the pump they would either be left out of pocket until they could get a rebate processed (probably based on keeping receipts and putting a claim into HMRC), or some sort of a Card could be provided, entitling the holder to a VED Deduction at the till/pump, of course this would get the DM lot up in arms and accusations of abuse would be widespread.

    IIRC even Clarkson was in favour of just bunging a VED equivalent on top of fuel duty as the polutiest and/or most road damaging vehicles are normally also the least fuel efficient.

    As a “Tax” it is directly proportionate to the vehicles impact on the environment and roads.

    Those who Drive Leccy cars will of course remain “VED Exempt” but then they’d still be at the mercey of EDF / Gittish Bas’s pricing, and the Government gets their revenue per mile/Gallon/KW one way or the other, and it’s easier/cheaper to administer…

    All IMO of course…

    eltonerino
    Member

    MOT discs in Northern Ireland too. And we can only get the MOT done at test centres.

    bikebouy
    Member

    I’m glad the VED disc is going, but more importantly I’m happier that you will be able to spread the cost of the “tax” on a monthly basis..

    Only one point, if you do buy a s/h car, how will you know it’s taxed??

    Premier Icon andytherocketeer
    Subscriber

    Cos when you send off V5 or whatever it’s called now to re-register it, you get a direct debit form to start paying “tax” on it.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I’m happier that you will be able to spread the cost of the “tax” on a monthly basis..

    Slightly perturbed that this option will apparently cost 5% more.

    Don’t most companies give you a discount for paying by direct debit?

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