Viewing 33 posts - 1 through 33 (of 33 total)
  • Car Diagnostics Scan – mild rant.
  • Premier Icon mariner
    Free Member

    Peugeot really piss me off with their attitude to getting a car scanned for fault codes. A couple of years ago a lot of owners found their radios packed up because of a factory error and the dealers charged upwards of £80 to put it right because it ‘had to be scanned’. Everyone knew what the problem was and what the fix was but the dealers insisted on a full scan by a trained technician who would confirm what we already knew.
    So now I have just booked an annual service and the mention of a problem with parking sensors would mean a full scan for fault codes by a trained technician at an additional cost. What is the point of having diagnostics if it is an added cost? I fixed it myself by cleaning the sensors with WD40.
    Are home diagnostics units worth it and do they have to be car specific?
    As I am coming up to thinking about replacing the car what manufacturers use diagnostics as a standard part of servicing?

    Premier Icon julians
    Full Member

    diagnosing the cause of a fault is never part of a standard service, its always an extra charge for every manufcaturer- unless the car is under warranty still

    A standard service is just a ticklist of items like :-

    change oil and filter
    replace air filter
    replace spark plugs etc

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Full Member

    I’ve got a little Bluetooth OBDII connector, works fine on my Berlingo and will tell you fault codes, although their meanings or causes sometime take a little lateral thinking.

    If you knew the problem, and it wasn’t in warrenty, why not just fix it? I mean, to be fair on the garage you’d be even more pissed off if you’d gone in, said …… was faulty, they replaced …… , charged you, and it then turned out to actually be “…..” which could have been simply determined by plugging their diagnostic doodahh in.

    Premier Icon WorldClassAccident
    Free Member

    2nd vote for the OBD2 connecter off the internet as OBD2 Dr app on phone. Doesn’t do everything the dealers version does but gives you a clue what’s wrong and can reset some codes so the intermittent fault causing lights on the dash disappear before an MOT

    Premier Icon magoos_mate
    Free Member

    Peugeot dealer recently had my pants down to provide a key for a 108.

    Final cost was £660 + £100 to recover the car to them after an initial quote of £340.

    Most expensive bike ride ever that 🤦

    Premier Icon nixie
    Full Member

    You’ll still get charged even if you tell them what the fault code is as read off the ECU. Why it costs so much to connect a reader and let it do all the the work I’m not sure (other than profiteering).

    Premier Icon mattyfez
    Free Member

    Different ones are different.. I have a basic one which can read faults on several makes of car, but I think it can’t read certain manufacturers specific codes. It can also delete fault codes which will reappear a few days later if it’s still an issue.

    As above you do have to do a bit of lateral thinking and read between the lines sometimes.
    For example a fault code for component ‘x’ doesn’t nesesarily mean that component is faulty, it could be the sensor for component ‘x’ is faulty, or the electrical cable for the sensor is broken/corroded etc.

    Premier Icon Greybeard
    Full Member

    A lot of the generic OBD2 software only reads codes that relate to the engine and exhaust, things that affect emissions, as that was the original legal requirement for fitting OBD sockets.

    The dealers can be a pain. My Focus showed a fault code for a crash sensor. It was under warranty, so I asked the dealer about taking it in. They said the warranty only covered the sensor itself, and if the code was down to a loose connection I’d have to pay – which would start with £80 for a scan. A new sensor was £38 so I just bought one (it was pig to fit but that’s a different story).

    Premier Icon mattyfez
    Free Member

    Just to add… It’s worth joining an owners club forum for your make/model of car, they will already be well versed in what code readers are suitable/good value and also handy for picking up general tips and tricks that you otherwise might be scratching your head over.

    Premier Icon mattyfez
    Free Member

    (other than profiteering).

    There’s a lot of truth to this. That or mechanics that just aren’t very familiar with the peculiarities of specific models.

    The 1.7 puma for example.. Almost guaranteed to have a lambda sensor failure at some point. All the enthusiasts know this, but if you take it to a Ford dealer, they scan the codes, then typically replace coil pack, fails. Replace the spark plug leads, fails and possibly replace the spark plugs too.

    So all of a sudden you’ve got a really hefty bill for something that costs about £100 to fix.

    Premier Icon Rockhopper
    Free Member

    I bought a C310+ for my BMW Z4, it was about £60 and has paid for itself multiple times. Its a BMW specific scanner but other car makes have their own specific versions.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    For a Peugeot you want a Lexia reader, probably a full chip version (means newer cars actually get read).

    https://www.peugeotforums.com/threads/lexia-3-advice-needed-on-purchasing-one.344187/

    https://www.peugeotforums.com/threads/peugeot-planet-buying-installing-using.336492/

    OBD doesn’t do much, this is a full manufacturers suite that can be used to do everything.

    Premier Icon windyg
    Free Member

    I can read codes and reset quite a few with my OBD reader.
    If I get stuck I have one local garage that can do nearly all makes with his snap on reader and another that can read/program my Corsa both never charge me more than £20.

    Key prices at dealers are a joke, local mobile guy I use will do most cars for around £90 fully programmed.

    Premier Icon boriselbrus
    Full Member

    You’ll still get charged even if you tell them what the fault code is as read off the ECU. Why it costs so much to connect a reader and let it do all the the work I’m not sure (other than profiteering).

    Maybe part of it is to pay for the reader? Mt mate runs a small (him plus one mechanic) garage. His kit to read and diagnose everything for pretty much every make was over £3k. Software updates for new models aren’t free either.

    It’s like asking a bike shop why it costs £30 to face a BB shell when it takes 5 minutes. It’s because the tool cost £400 and the cutting blades don’t last forever.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    ^ also this.

    I can read codes and reset quite a few with my OBD reader.

    So can I. But I can’t reset airbags, change bodywork configurations (folding mirrors, parking lights etc.) unlock the radio aux port, code in a new EGR, injectors or keys or a million other things that dealer level diagnostics will let you do.

    Premier Icon andrewh
    Free Member

    I also found Peugeot to very unhelpful/expensive.
    Problem with the heater matrix, I knew what the fault was, but not how to fix it (dashboard off job) They were going to charge me just to look at it and tell me what the problem was and provide a quote. No, I’ll go somewhere else.
    Contrast Ford, different heater problem which I didn’t know what it was. Dealer’s mechanic spent twenty minutes showing me where the problem was and how to fix it myself, “no charge, and just bring it back if you’re struggling”
    .
    Could just be the peculiarities of Kirkcaldy’s car dealers of course. But 16yrs later I’m now on my third Ford🤷‍♂️

    Premier Icon matt_outandabout
    Full Member

    What is the point of having diagnostics if it is an added cost?

    There is this thing called ‘making money’. Lots of businesses do it.

    I bought the Volvo Vida/Dice diagnostic tool and software for £100. It’s very powerful, although my garage isn’t allowed to use it (commercial use. = my comment about making money), but ive printed off screenshot to them a few times and left it with car.

    Premier Icon singletrackmind
    Full Member

    Join the AA then get the patrol man to pull and or clear the codes.
    The cost is comperable, then you get a year’s worth of AA breakdown cover and lost key cover
    Just ensue your breakdown occurs when its quiet and in a favourable location. Ie sunday 0830 in a Mcdonald car park. Food, toilet, wifi and not alot of traffic so should be quick to turn up

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    Peugeot dealer recently had my pants down to provide a key for a 108.

    Final cost was £660 + £100 to recover the car to them after an initial quote of £340.

    Most expensive bike ride ever that 🤦

    It was their fault you only had one key and had lost it?

    Premier Icon brads
    Free Member

    I can’t imagine why a company would charge you for using a machine that cost them 20 grand !
    Outrageous.

    Premier Icon rsl1
    Free Member

    It can also delete fault codes which will reappear a few days later if it’s still an issue.

    Just fyi most fault codes are set to clear after a set number or driving or warm up cycles without the fault being detected again, so if it’s been there ages there’s not much point in clearing it yourself, better to just get fixing.

    Premier Icon mariner
    Free Member

    Interesting answers.
    My own perspective coming from an aeronautics background is that in order to maintain a vehicle to its highest standard checking for fault codes would be automatically part of a service. I am clearly wrong as it seems that a service is only to do specific time/mileage related operations not to check the overall functionality of the vehicle.
    You will be pleased to hear that the opposite is (mostly) true in aviation.
    Do dealers have to buy their dealership? I would have assumed – perhaps wrongly – that if you were appointed as a main dealer the car company you represent would supply a certain amount of equipment and specifically diagnostic equipment along with specialist tools required or is that all down to Snapon?
    Are codes the same across all makes? I suppose if say Valeo were supplying an off the shelf EMU the software would recognise a specific problem with a specific code across all brands?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    It’s heavily proprietary and a pretty murky area IMO.

    When you pay the £60 you’re paying for a service, which you need and they can supply. Feel free to spend £3k and an annual license on a tool you don’t know how to use, don’t know how to interpret the results, and will only work on one brand so you’ll need to replace when you get a different car.

    My £99 at Merc got me a software update, a full code readout with details that you know is correct and comprehensive*, a visual check, a road test and they washed and hoovered it.

    * cos there’s code reading and there’s code reading. Usually there’s a standard OBD code and then there manufacturer-specific information that may or may not be available in some or all cases with various different tools. But you knew that, didn’t you?

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Who pays £3K? You can get the same results from a £50 clone.

    Of course it comes down to how you use it but that’s the same as everything in a car, the tool is only as useful as the user knowledge.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Who pays £3K? You can get the same results from a £50 clone.

    Really? Mercedes STAR is the same as a £50 code reader?

    Premier Icon duncancallum
    Full Member

    In answer to the above if you become a main dealer the manufacturer gives you nothing.

    That’s not true they give you a list for dealer standards.

    This includes and can only often be bought through them…

    Diagnostic equipment often at 5x the cost of an unlicensed version.
    Special tools
    Reception area furniture
    Decoration.
    Access to the parts and after sales system
    Clothing.

    That’s why they charge more from the indys as the manufacturer is charging them a fortune.

    Obd is obd however the proprietary systems are different.

    Premier Icon boriselbrus
    Full Member

    Who pays £3K? You can get the same results from a £50 clone.

    You really don’t.

    I’ve seem what my mates machine can do and what my £50 clone can do. The clone is fine for simple stuff but for more complex stuff, as a pro you need the proper kit.

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Really? Mercedes STAR is the same as a £50 code reader?

    No but there’s every chance you could get a clone that is the same as Star. Maybe.

    You really don’t.

    I’ve seem what my mates machine can do and what my £50 clone can do. The clone is fine for simple stuff but for more complex stuff, as a pro you need the proper kit.

    I’m not talking about a simple reader. I’m talking about a reverse engineered and chipset correct diagnostic tool running legit software. Legally grey but for a home mechanic safe enough. You can literally do anything a dealer can.

    It’s entirely specific to Peugeot/Citroen, it’s no 2 grand multi brand reader but it will do whatever you ask of it.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    I’ve been messing around with diagnostics as a home mechanic, as you’ll be aware. And this whole area is an absolute minefield. It’s awash with bad information, bad products, ripped off products and people assuring you that ‘oh it’ll be fine this will be perfect’ and it’s not. When you buy some knock-off product, you don’t actually KNOW that it’s found everything that the full system would have found unless you take it to both places. Car diagnostics is a minefield at the best of times, so if you can’t rely on the information you are on the back foot from the start.

    As an example, I took my Merc to three diagnostic places for one reason or another. Whatever device TCW used came back with no codes but just two words otherwise – SOFTWARE UPDATE it says on the printout. So they sent me to Mercedes. However the previous diagnostic had been done with STAR and this revealed that the software issue was actually a software error in one module, deemed not important by the operator at the time. Merc on the other hand ended up offering me the optional emissions update which STAR couldn’t do, but also wasn’t the one flagged up by TCW’s software – presumably.

    STAR was also able to access the transmission wear and adaptation parameters, which Autologic was not. And this is expensive kit, you’re not going to get that from an eBay special.

    In the VAG world VCDS is the best known and supported diagnostic/config software for the home mechanic, but it’s actually reverse engineered software by a third party, and it only does so much. The problem is that if it’s not doing something you don’t know what it’s not doing…

    Premier Icon squirrelking
    Free Member

    Again, I’m not talking about third party software. I’m talking about the exact same kit dealers use albeit cloned and unlicensed.

    Because let’s be serious, beyond some better QC and components the hardware cost difference is minimal. That’s not where the money is and isn’t where the barrier is. The licence is for the software and that is what keeps it dealer or serious user only (they get the updates for new models and don’t have to bugger about with copies several years out of date). I’m not saying its a perfect system but it does do everything required of it.

    Premier Icon oldnick
    Full Member

    And that’s why I like Fords, and Forscan software (‘basic’ version free, full fat version cheap).

    It has saved me plenty, and several friends too. Downside is you can brick your car if you wade in all Billy Big Balls…

    Anecdotal evidence is if you had a puncture outside a main stealers they would start by plugging in the scanner, so I feel the OP’s pain.

    Premier Icon mariner
    Free Member

    so I feel the OP’s pain.

    It is not a pain it is amazement that you would have on board diagnostics available but not use it as a standard of procedure during a service. It seems I have been under the delusion that the dealer was maintaining the car not just carrying out basic servicing. The previous dealer also Peugeot was constantly coming up with read outs and suggestions on preventive maintenance.
    Does this also apply to EV servicing?
    That is my next car so would expect a dealer to need diagnostics to help maintain the vehicle or is this a case again of servicing is the ‘oily’ bits diagnostics is the system?

    Premier Icon davespike1981
    Full Member

    For years the local garage to work MOT’d and repaired my ragged assortment of high millage low cost motors. On occasion he has not only lent me his own pickup truck to get me home but i’ve taken the Snap-on diagnostic machine with me, fumbled my way through reading the codes and then been able to agree the best way forward with him for the issue at hand. From my recommendation over the last 15 years i must have sent 40 people to see him. Recently he has read a colleagues BMW (no cost) before she committed to taking it 50 miles to the nearest BMW garage, as they would read the code, if it was a warranty issue they wouldn’t charge, if it wasn’t she would be in for £80.

    To your point mariner on the pointlessness of main dealers, the local garage recently read code on my newish Kia, no power steering, no ABS, no speedo. Fault was speed sensor or cable on the drivers offside. Great i thought, i’ll just ring kia anbd request they send one here to be fitted under warranty. Their response was they can’t do a warranty replacement without reading the code themselves, which is suppose is fair enough but the logic they then entered when i stated i wasn’t happy to drive a car 100miles with no speedo, ABS etc was ‘well get it recovered here by the AA’.

    Main dealers (well BMW and KIA from my recent experience) don’t seem to understand that for most people taking time off to get to a garage, having the code read for a cost and they potentially having to come back for a repair on an alternative day is not an acceptable option. In my case they wouldn’t even commit to order in the required speed sensor in advance, they basically laid it out as come in we’ll read it, then order the part, then you come back on another day.

    The moral – the local garage gets the work of servicing the Kia from now on, i will never go dealer again, the speed sensor was £50 fitted and i’ve put another £3000 of work his way in the last 6 months across colleagues and my dad even waited for his MOT and service and did it here on holiday.

Viewing 33 posts - 1 through 33 (of 33 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.