Or Winter v Cotton, 1984.
Person pulling out was entitled to believe approaching vehicle was turning in (driving slowly and indicators on).
But Scud’s cases are more recent.

scud – Member

Pierre – Member
I think scud’s written the most useful answer, but I was also always told by my driving instructor that the only thing a flashing indicator means is that the bulb’s working.

Well i’m glad someone read it…… [/quote]
I read it after giving my answer … 😆

In the far east or SE Asia, 10 tonne trucks or the likes have the right of ways regardless. No point having your love ones arguing for you in court … 😮

This means indicating to pull into the drive is quite late, but I reckon that’s the lesser of 2 evils.

And also correct. Bit like on roundabouts where you indicate to come off as soon as you’re past the penultimate exit but not before, so as early as possible without causing confusion.

Car pulling out has a duty of care not to drive into the other vehicle regardless of some blinky lights.

Car B is 100% at fault, they pulled out in front of another vehicle. End of story.

Indeed….clearly driver A is a numpty, but that does not remove the fact that you should never pull out unless its clear to do so. Always assume the other driver is a numpty!

Car ‘b’ is at fault.
The driver of car ‘b’ should have remained stationary and waited for car ‘a’ to complete it’s manoeuvre.

Case closed!

car B, indicators not cancelling is a pretty common occurrence, don’t take them as a guarantee someone is turning

IME the insurance companies will go 50/50.

About 7 years ago I was driving along a main road (about 20 in a 30 limit, traffic was busy) when a van pulled out from a road on the left, we collided my front left to his front right corners.

He swore blind that I was indicating. I know I wasn’t.

Insurance co’s went knock for knock.

I indicate everywhere where it’s appropriate (no, not around tight corners like a worrying amount of people do). Doing it automatically means I don’t have to think to do it and weigh up whether it’s worth doing or not.

Precisely why the default IAM position is to not indicate. You should be thinking about it, it shouldn’t be automatic. 💡
I think this has trickled down to basic teaching as well, though I’ve been out the loop for a couple of years.

Car B at fault.
Car A’s still an arsehole.

Car A’s still an arsehole.

I prefer to call her mom

Precisely why the default IAM position is to not indicate.

Personally, I think this is a really stupid idea.

Car A is hardly an ‘arsehole’ – bit harsh that (especially as it’s the OP’s Mum!). Good luck OP :).
Scud’s response sounds spot on to me but my personal experience of insurance companies is that knock for knock is often the default position rather than investing resource into investigating/proving blame.
Been teaching my eldest to drive and whilst he knows not to proceed based on an indicator alone, his instructor has told him not to indicate if there’s no traffic to indicate to. Whilst I’m ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

Whilst I’m ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

Nope. I only indicate when needed. For example, if at a junction with cars behind me but a clear road to pull onto I don’t indicate. What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

I prefer to call her mom

Well I hope you will now be phoning her up and telling her she is an arsehole as the internet said so.

I have seen this many times where drivers forgot to switch off their indicator.

Especially on a motorbike. Car B should have waited for car A to commit. Irrespective of blame, it would have prevented an accident for the sake of a few seconds.

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

Maybe to a cyclist who has crept into your blindspot while you’re busy scanning for a gap in the traffic?

his instructor has told him not to indicate if there’s no traffic to indicate to. Whilst I’m ok with this I wonder if that makes it more likely some folk forget to indicate when needed?

On my driving lessons I was taught to always indicate, as it’s better to indicate when there’s no-one to see it than not indicate when there is. Plus I suppose, it embeds it into ‘muscle memory’. Later on an advanced lesson I was taught this, to not bother if there’s no-one to see it. I guess the ‘advanced’ method is trickling down into standard advice.

I’m not entirely sure which is better. I suppose arguably if there’s no-one else around then it doesn’t matter all that much either way.

I’m not entirely sure which is better. I suppose arguably if there’s no-one else around then it doesn’t matter all that much either way.

Better to get into the habit of indicating, then, surely? Because it’s quite possible that someone might turn up or there might be someone you haven’t considered.

kerley – Member
Nope. I only indicate when needed. What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

That assumes your decision to not indicate is based on you having perfect assessment of who might benefit from knowing. Just seems safer to indicate and avoid that risk on most occasions (especially learners, good habits and all).

Talking to a police traffic officer a few years ago and he described the same thing as malicious indication, to provoke or cause a crash for cash, always wait till youre sure theyre turning.

GlennQuagmire – Member

Personally, I think this is a really stupid idea.

That’s the whole point; you think about it. You look to see who would or wouldn’t benefit from your indication.

Apologies to the OP’s Mum.
For some reason I got mixed up with another thread (another forum) where car A slowed and indicated to turn and then aborted last minute, as opposed to accidentally leaving the indicator on.

Car should have a working audible or visual “tell tale” to pass MOT.

IME the insurance companies will go 50/50.

About 7 years ago I was driving along a main road (about 20 in a 30 limit, traffic was busy) when a van pulled out from a road on the left, we collided my front left to his front right corners.

He swore blind that I was indicating. I know I wasn’t.

Insurance co’s went knock for knock.

Exactly the same as my situation.

I wouldn’t have said the other driver was an arsehole, they made a mistake, as the OP’s mum did. Calling someone’s mum an arsehole is a bit off.

I wonder what the consensus would be if someone on a bicycle was riding along with their left arm stuck out and the driver exiting the side road pulled in front of them. Same opinion I guess?

Better to get into the habit of indicating, then, surely?

Better to always think about it, and then indicate as long as it will not mislead.
I personally think the IAM stance is a bit arrogant: I think you are much less likely to misleadingly indicate by accident than you are to miss someone who would benefit (could be a ped or cyclist hiding).

Habit is a naughty word when it comes to driving. 🙂

kerley – Member

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

So we can plan to go in the other direction. 🙂

I can think of one junction near to me where I would change my positioning in the event of an emergency services vehicle approaching from the rear, depending on the indications of the vehicles in front.

Insurance co’s went knock for knock.

FWIW this isn’t the correct term. Knock for knock is how insurance companies deal with payment of claims and nothing to do with liability.

There are 2 or 3 things that could explain the indicator other than them turning into the road you are in.

Changing lane.
Pulling in or turning in shortly after junction.
Forgetting to cancel indicator (unlikely to apply to a bike!)

So yes, still the same if it’s a bike giving a hand signal. Don’t turn until you’re sure there’s space to join the road you’re turning onto.

Those that have gone knock for knock seem to have been done over (of course if the vehicle was slowing and starting the manoeuvre, then changed their mind, that is slightly different and explains the differences in case law and possibly the knock for knocks for people on here).

I often don’t signal so much on the bike (particularly round roundabouts – I won’t signal the whole way around) as I may need to brake or take other evasive action which is tricky with one hand off the bars.

You have a lot more scope on a bike to indicate your intentions by using road positioning/body language et cetera.

What does it matter to the cars behind me which way I am going.

Well, normally one slows down to turn left off a road, so you’d at least be providing a warning of that if you indicated.

For the effort involved in indicating, I tend to do it all the time, when overtaking bikes for instance….a lot don’t!

FWIW this isn’t the correct term. Knock for knock is how insurance companies deal with payment of claims and nothing to do with liability.

Knock for knock is when 2 parties agree to deal with their own damage, so each party pays for their cars damage.

An insurer, if they agree 50/50, will pay half of the other persons claim. So if your claim is worth £100 and the third party claim is £1000, your insurer is paying £500 out.

That’s the whole point; you think about it. You look to see who would or wouldn’t benefit from your indication.

I’m not saying there’s anything wrong with that – but why not just indicate anyway, *just* in case you’ve missed something. Belt and braces and all that.

While I indicate as my default, there are occasions when the action I’ve taken hasn’t resulted in the indicator automatically turning off, so I’ve driven on with it still operating, and I never, ever take it as read that a car with its indicator on is actually going to make the manoeuvre that’s being indicated, for the same reason. If I’m sitting at a junction onto another road, with a car coming towards me from either direction, unless they’re some distance away I never pull out until they actually start to turn.

I even went as far as looking up the cases, and found that Davis v Swinwood was actually 2003 😉

B

The indicator is simply showing the bulb works.

Well, normally one slows down to turn left off a road, so you’d at least be providing a warning of that if you indicated

You seem to have missed the key point before that around pulling out of a junction. I would indicate if turning left off of a road, I would indicate when changing lanes etc,. etc,. but I won’t always indicate if their is no point to indicating

The amount of times I would have been driven into if I believed that everyone was going to do what their indicators were indicating.

People parking just after a junction. People going all the way round a roundabout. People not realising their indicators are on etc etc

there are occasions when the action I’ve taken hasn’t resulted in the indicator automatically turning off, so I’ve driven on with it still operating, and I never, ever take it as read that a car with its indicator on is actually going to make the manoeuvre that’s being indicated, for the same reason.

It always amazes me how people manage to leave their indicators on. It can quite easily be heard going tick-tock-tick-tock as you’re driving along, as well as there being a flashing light on the dashboard to make you aware of it in case you’re a bit deaf. And why for heavens sake expect it to always turn off automatically? it is possible to move your finger about half an inch to make sure that the stalk centres itself and switches off the indicator after you’ve turned.

Some people are a bit deaf (and it’s not that loud in some cars and some people have the stereo on or wind noise from open windows), some people are paying more attention to the important stuff going on outside their car than their dash which is mostly irrelevant (for those experienced enough not to need to check the speedo every 10s to maintain a steady speed). In most cars if you stick your finger out to “cancel” and it already has then you’ll indicate the opposite direction.

I presume you’re a perfect driver, but like most I’m not and it’s easily done – I can certainly remember recently leaving one on for a while.