Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
  • Can wiggle stipulate what you do with a product post purchase?
  • iamanobody
    Member

    Just been told they supply products that are not for re-sale or business use? When they sell cheaper than legitimate distributors – what are businesses/bike shops etc meant to do?

    Premier Icon bruneep
    Subscriber

    ?

    need a bit of context to explain this more

    iamanobody
    Member

    If a product is cheaper from wiggle, than say for arguments sake Extrauk, who are a legit supplier and a shop gets said product from wiggle to fit to a customers bike – is this legit? Wiggle say not?

    corkblork
    Member

    I don’t see how they can prevent you from reselling a product but they can certainly refuse to sell to you if they believe you are operating a business. Although I would question their motives for doing so.

    Premier Icon jimdubleyou
    Subscriber

    They can sell to whoever they want…

    https://www.wiggle.co.uk/h/option/terms_conditions

    Fair Purchase Policy

    At Wiggle, we buy from our suppliers with an agreement to sell to private customers. It is not in our business model to sell items in bulk quantities to other retailers or bicycle manufacturers. We reserve the right to refuse or cancel any orders which we suspect are beyond the requirements for an individual or club arrangement. If you have any questions on this matter, or wish to consult us before making a large purchase, please use Livechat or Contact Us.

    Seems fair enough, if it’s based on supplier agreements then they wouldn’t want to jeopardise that agreement by acting as a distributor.

    iamanobody
    Member

    not sure why they would as it is not making the blindest bit of difference to them. How do they get products cheaper than distributors can supply tho?

    Premier Icon tthew
    Subscriber

    Ultimately I suppose they would close your account if you were buying volumes off them that suggested re-selling. You’d be carrying the liability for warranty claims as well, or at least be buggered about chasing Wiggle to sort them for your customers.

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    When you say ‘just been told’, does that mean told by Wiggle, ExtraUK, or some other random?

    As above though, any retailer/supplier can refuse to sell to you.

    iamanobody
    Member

    by wiggle live chat

    I guess there’s a transferability of warranty issue. If you buying something from a shop and it breaks, you take it back to the shop. But if the shop has bought it from Wiggle and re-sold it, you have no contract with Wiggle so they have no obligation to deal with it, and I guess Wiggle could refuse to warranty it for the shop, since it’s not hard to work out they’ve re-sold it.

    Don’t know how likely that scenario is.

    iamanobody
    Member

    seems fair enough now i’ve seen the t+c – seems odd thats all and still doesn’t sit right that they offer stuff cheaper to the general public that distributors can offer to bike shops 🙁

    Premier Icon martinhutch
    Subscriber

    I suppose, if you put them on the spot on their chat, or tried to buy 50 drivetrains, then they would quote/apply their stated policy. Can’t see how their system would pick up much else.

    iamanobody
    Member

    it was 2 tyres that were ordered and not delivered as were stated as being in stock that weren’t. Stated that the bloke i was fitting them to his wheels wouldn’t be impressed with not being able to ride, he then told me that their stuff wasn’t to be resold

    mashr
    Member

    I don’t think it seems odd at all, they’re not a B2B company and all of the supply agreements they have in place will state that they are not a B2B company.

    How do they get products cheaper than distributors can supply tho?

    Using alternative supply routes. I remember Madison took the hump with CRC (pre-Chiggle) for cutting them out of the loop with a lot of Shimano kit

    Stated that the bloke i was fitting them to his wheels wouldn’t be impressed with not being able to ride, he then told me that their stuff wasn’t to be resold

    Subtle. That’ll be the easiest way to get yourself blacklisted. Surely you read all your suppliers T&Cs (as a business, not consumer)?

    Premier Icon ajaj
    Subscriber

    Seems fair enough

    It’s a restriction of competition, which is generally seen as being against the long term interests of consumers and why it is controlled (but not banned outright). In the UK the relevant legislation is the Competition Act.

    Premier Icon tomhoward
    Subscriber

    As above though, any retailer/supplier can refuse to sell to you

    This. Both Toys R Us and Lego blacklisted a former colleague, as he was buying far too much to not be a reseller/to be a retail customer.

    They can’t stop you reselling, but they don’t have to sell to you if they suspect that is what you are doing.

    iamanobody
    Member

    wiggle still get shimano stuff bypassing madison

    Sui
    Member

    As a supplier you can have exclusivity agreements with distributors/re-sellers, but part of those terms may well stipulate they are not to sell to certain people, no harm in that as long as it is not on spuriours grounds such as equality act..

    However, they cannot tell you once you have a product that YOU are not allowed to do something with it, there is no legal case for this unless it is an officially controlled object or substance (other regs will fallin place at this point).

    What Wiggle would be entirely legal to do is, that they can refuse a refund/replacement if you the user were not the first buyer, though warranties are still in effect and it would be upto the first purchaser to honour that warnaty (at their own cost at this point) unless there are other agreements in place.

    Premier Icon MarkyG82
    Subscriber

    Stated that the bloke i was fitting them to his wheels wouldn’t be impressed with not being able to ride

    Not stated that he was reselling. Only fitting to someone else’s wheels. I have sourced plenty of parts for others to then be repaid later. I guess it could be seen a reselling but that usually implies profit?

    though warranties are still in effect and it would be upto the first purchaser to honour that warnaty (at their own cost at this point) unless there are other agreements in place.

    Are you sure that’s the case? Don’t most warranties have a term that they only apply to the first owner, and so if they’d been re-sold the warranty would be null and void (of course, the reseller doesn’t necessarily have to tell the supplier it’s been re-sold, but the supplier would probably spot a significant volume of sales/warranty claims).

    Sui
    Member

    thenorthwind

    Member
    though warranties are still in effect and it would be upto the first purchaser to honour that warnaty (at their own cost at this point) unless there are other agreements in place.

    Are you sure that’s the case? Don’t most warranties have a term that they only apply to the first owner, and so if they’d been re-sold the warranty would be null and void (of course, the reseller doesn’t necessarily have to tell the supplier it’s been re-sold, but the supplier would probably spot a significant volume of sales/warranty claims).

    not always, some are transferable but it’s upto the manufacturer normally. Cars are a classic example..

    Premier Icon chakaping
    Subscriber

    it is not making the blindest bit of difference to them.

    As touched on above, they may have agreed with their suppliers not to sell B2B.

    And perhaps more likely, they have to say they’re not selling to LBSs so that the official distros don’t kick up a fuss.

    mashr
    Member

    ajaj

    Subscriber
    It’s a restriction of competition, which is generally seen as being against the long term interests of consumers and why it is controlled (but not banned outright). In the UK the relevant legislation is the Competition Act.

    Not wanting to sell to their competition (e.g. any B2C shop) is stifling competition?

    I guess it could be seen a reselling but that usually implies profit?

    Nope. Could sell on the parts for cost and/or profit on labour, its all reselling

    i’ve seen numerous bike companies stating only for sale in the UK/ europe. ie excludes north america.

    i know mechanics/shops who allow you to order stock direct to the shop as its far easier than themselves to order it in, maybe you should ask the customers to do this rather than ordering it yourself and passing it on, you’ll also keep the potential VAT accounting at bay..

    i read those rules a few days ago, i had planned to bulk buy the gold kmc X12 chains misspriced at £9.99. but it was a single return rather than restock. i’d be interested what they count as too much. As i can add 500 items of some products to my basket.

    CRC / Wiggle bulk buy on the grey market, liquidation sales and old stock.
    – the fox 34 /36 forks where clearly from jungle products, having a clearout.
    – SRAM also had a clearout of 11 speed kit, £65 for carbon cranksets
    – Yetis are now on sale, clearly old stock.
    – Much of the shimano gear is oem stock ie not packaged in retail boxes.

    hence can easily beat the distributors/shops in price.

    daern
    Member

    Funnily, went into my LBS earlier in the week asking for a price on an XT M8100 groupset as I was hoping they might get somewhere close to the online pricing…sadly, not even close. £550 vs closer to £350 buying from the EU and £370 from Wiggle. They admitted that, were I to place an order, they would make more money buying the kit from Wiggle and reselling it to me than they would sourcing from Madison.

    I felt pretty bad for them, TBH. I mean, this isn’t about penny-pinching for a few quid here and there. They were 60% more expensive and that’s hard to dismiss, even for the most rabid LBS fan.

    (disclaimer: there was no suggestion that they /would/ have resold Wiggle kit – they were just making a point, but it’s a fair one and at the moment the UK bike component market is not a very level playing ground for bike shops)

    not always, some are transferable but it’s upto the manufacturer normally. Cars are a classic example..

    That’s the exception rather than the rule though right (in bikes anyway)? Some of the smaller, higher end frame builders, and maybe the likes of Paul/CK for bits, as part of their USP, but pretty uncommon I think.

    ibnchris
    Member

    More and more retailers get stock direct now rather than going through distributors because of the volume of sales. A lot of retailers sell more volume than the distributors that used to sell to them…this means the original brand then offers better terms to the retailer than the distributor. And everyone gets pissed off. It’s fun. And something I have to deal with regularly!

    Premier Icon winston
    Subscriber

    You think bike parts are bad – try being in electronic equipment retail and only being able to source from distributors.

    The retail model is completely broken in the UK with everyone on a race to the bottom to compete with grey imports and online only models. It doesn’t help that courier companies are cutting prices continually (too much competition) and with it their own throats as it plays into the hands of online stores. If stuff was more expensive to post then it would a) give the delivery drivers a living wage b) make going into a shop more cost efficient

    Premier Icon ajaj
    Subscriber

    Not wanting to sell to their competition (e.g. any B2C shop) is stifling competition?

    It does if Wiggle merge with Chain Reaction, the combined entity uses low prices to push Evans into receivership and the local bike shops, unable to compete, start leaving the market granting Wiggle a monopoly and the freedom to set prices as they want.

    The Competition Commission thought that this would be unlikely and that the buying power of Wiggle wouldn’t enable it buy cheaper than competitors [p5]. Which, if true, makes one wonder why the restriction.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Subscriber

    Chiggle can, and do, sell many items to the public for lower prices than distributers can, and do, sell to their competitors. That’s scale for you.

    Premier Icon simondbarnes
    Subscriber

    Chiggle can, and do, sell many items to the public for lower prices than distributers can, and do, sell to their competitors. That’s scale for you.

    Indeed. As a random example, Wiggle are selling black Lizard Skins DSP tape for £6.50 less than I can buy it from the distributor and £8.33 less than the standard trade price.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    The Competition Commission thought that this would be unlikely and that the buying power of Wiggle wouldn’t enable it buy cheaper than competitors [p5]. Which, if true, makes one wonder why the restriction.

    The commissions decision (and role) IAUI isnt to protect any one business model, company or consumer but to make sure the market functions correctly.

    So if all the big supermarkets merged then there would be no one else for dairy farmers to sell milk to, so they could set an even lower price, and no one else for consumers to buy from so the price they could charge would rise. That would be a monopoly.

    Chiggle on the other hand is still not the only way to buy bikes or parts by a long shot. That LBSs have a less efficient supply chain than chiggle isnt the competition comissions problem to solve. That chiggle are cheaper than distributors could be viewed as a positive as it proves there’s healthy competition in the market.

    Premier Icon clubby
    Subscriber

    So who’s ultimately to blame and what can be done about it?

    SRAM/Shimano are selling so cheap to bike manufacturers yet not to their own distributors. Why?
    Can’t blame the public for buying online when the price difference is so big. Within 3-4 months of release I got AXS gear on the German sites for 40% of its initial RRP.

    Premier Icon doomanic
    Subscriber

    SRAM/Shimano sell cheap to the manus to keep their market share, meaning they can sell at a higher price to the distys.

    Premier Icon clubby
    Subscriber

    But no-one’s buying from the distributors any more. CRC/Wiggle, Merlin and the German websites are sourcing independently and must be close to outselling Madison in uk sales.

    Premier Icon thisisnotaspoon
    Subscriber

    So who’s ultimately to blame and what can be done about it?

    Capitalism.

    If you want to be able to set prices in shops you need to go full Corbyn and sieze the means of production then everyone can have an SLX groupset at a fair price. Or not at all seeing as they struggled to even keep bread on supermarket shelves but you get the idea.

    Premier Icon andy4d
    Subscriber

    Is this not fairly standard for retailers. They are a retailer not a wholesaler. The shop I work for have a bulk buying policy of 6 (we use our discretion). You would be surprised how many people in other businesses try to buy bulk from us off the shelf as they cannot buy it cheaper than we sell it for. This can create an issue, as if someone comes in and clears a shelf then we have none to sell our other customers and it takes a few days to restock which in turns would annoy ‘genuine’ customers and lose us customers in the long run. If we believe someone is buying goods to resell we can refuse to sell it.

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