More life ponderings in the world of moi…

You might be aware I’m going through separation at present…initially was emotionally very hard but ‘life path’ easy, as the ‘wife’ was being, quite frankly..horrible..
Made the choice of “yeah, you’re better off without her” much easier at the time.

Roll on now, and things are much more amicable, verging on the ‘sad and emotional’ when we meet up (have 2 young kids, so face to face contacts are inevitable).

She’s been seeing a counselor (something I’d wanted for her to do for ruddy years when were together), and SEEMS to be identifying some issues and traits she’s had.

Simply put, she’s said she’s willing to change, misses me, and wishes to be a family again.

I just don’t know… TBH, we’ve been through this ‘cycle’ in teh past, though i’ve never actually left the relationship (it’s been 5 months now)> Each time she’s regretful and remorseful, and temporarily improves/pleases, and then after time just reverts back to her old tricks…

Should people HAVE to change to make relationships work? If someone said to me “I love you DrP, but i want you to stop riding bikes” I don’t think they DID love me. Not all of me.
I fear it’s the same but in reverse…if someone has significant undesirable personality traits, BUT said THEY wanted to change for someone else… is that really possible?

Oh I dunno… the ponderings of Dr P….!

Can people change? Absolutely. We all do. It’s a natural part of growing older. Some become more rigid in their thinking and manners, some become less so.

Is that likely to be enough though. Sounds like it’s a story you’ve heard before and it’s coming at a time when you’ve had a spell of (comparative) loneliness so it’s also maybe what you want to hear.

I think I’d wait to see evidence of the changes before I made any commitments

DrP, I know what you mean and have been in a similar situation with my ex-wife. We got divorced because she was an alcoholic and could be quite abusive. When she was sober she was actually quite pleasant and rational, but those times were sadly quite rare during the final years of the marriage.

Anyway, water under the bridge.

Yes, people can change but, as far as I have experienced, there will always be a risk that the person they once were will be there waiting to come back. A very poor analogy might be like leaving a job because it is shitty and stressful and pays poorly, but has free coffee. They might give you more money to go back and you would have the free coffee, but it’s still a shitty job that’s stressful.

Bad analogy I know. Sorry. Maybe your situation is different, but if she has reverted to her previous behaviour before, it’s possible/likely she will do it again. My ex wife changed enough to stop a divorce once. Then went back to how things were soon after.

tough one. I’d say it’s still too early to say if the counselling has made a difference. I’d say the ‘sad and emotional’ meet ups are part of the course, and a realization the relationship is truly over and not another cycle as you say.
Personally I think people can improve, but they never fundamentally change as that is who they are

Can people REALLY change….

Of course they can. You’re not the same person now that you were when you were 19.

Problem is that that change is gradual and largely a result of external circumstances.

I’ve rarely ever come across a person who’s consciously decided to make a radical personality change and it’s stuck.

I think it’s more about being able to communicate than change.

I recently (bit over a year ago) spit up with a woman, in less than ideal circumstances (I really should’ve left earlier, it had been over for some time, but the idea of a nice family kept me from leaving until I got caught doing things I shouldn’t have and wouldn’t have in a good relationship. 2 kids here too).

From that perspective feel free to take everything with a pinch of salt, I’m sure my opinion is coloured by my experiences. It sounds like she’s not been willing to listen to you until now, there are ways you could approach these issues to deal with them better. Me and my ex had counselling, some of which was useful, some less so (very temporary uptick type of result). A lot of the issues are discussed by a guy that’s done some actual scientific study on it and has some interesting perspectives – if you want pointing towards him, PM me, there are some good books and podcasts. The point is that he gets the motivation for people not to approach each other in the best way and to end up fighting rather than working together to overcome their problems. If you can manage to work together, you can have a good relationship with pretty much anyone. It doesn’t mean changing her (or you), it just means treating each other with love and respect – and I’ve found it’s quite difficult for people to avoid doing so if one of you is approaching things correctly.

From my point of view, after 10 years of trying, about 5 or 6 of which had been pretty unsuccessful, I decided that I’d be better off finding someone I could have a great relationship with, as all I could ever have with my ex was a good one that she would resist due to our history and how we’d both changed over the years.

People can learn to act better, but what’s the change you need here, and why are you thinking of going back to her after you’ve left her? Have you tried seeing anybody else? This might make you realise you kinda prefer her or might make you realise what you’ve been missing out on. Either way, as long as you’re honest with yourself and don’t do anything daft, it’s all good. Make sure you look after yourself, and remember if she does change and it’s too late for your relationship at least your kids will experience a better mum.

We all change but it’s a gradual thing. Evolution not revolution and all that.

In line with others here I probably should point out that my relationship did have occasional glimmers of false hope too, they never lasted, as soon as any difficulty came our way (and to be fair there were plenty) it was all my fault, apparently.

It still is sometimes according to what the kids have fed back to me…

I’m a bit more cynical about this, for me its been to do with certain ex-friends (not many, just 2 folks so not exactly a total rule!), and work colleagues (which I know is not in any way the same as a deep personal relationship, but still, human beings and all that…)

Folks can put a veneer of change on who/what they are, and that veneer can be pretty damn good, pretty strong and convincing.

But once it’s stressed, it wears off, and the original, true fabric is laid bare again.

Just IMHE, your situation is likely totally different, but my tuppence worth since you asked.

People change over time, but I honestly think people can’t wilfully change. It’s a gradual aging process and I truly believe you can’t make yourself be a different person. Life changes your personality, I don’t think you can completely change who you are. Adjust a bit here and there, but not a complete change. Might just be me that’s become more cynical over the years though.

Five months is nothing; when me and MrsIHN1 split my head was all over the place for at least that long, I assume hers too. Ours was an actual amicable split too, no-one was being horrible to anyone and no children involved.

I’d say give yourself and her time, just keep talking, if she’s getting help then great, you have a relationship through the children anyway, if in the future (and I mean 12 months minimum) you decide you might like to try again then so be it. Not now though, you may very well be in the middle of what in investment lingo is know as the Dead Cat Bounce.

FWIW my sister and her husband split up, he left, it had been coming for ages. Six months later they got back together, basically because they were both sad. They hadn’t addressed any of the underlying issues in the marriage though, a year later she left, they’re now divorced. Whilst all this was going on, their two sons were, understandably, right-royally f****d about emotionally. I guess what I’m saying is that your first thought should be on the emotional well-being of your children, not your relationship with your wife (and I’m not for one minute suggesting it isn’t, btw)

People can make the effort to change, and of course they can identify their behaviour and learn from it. We all have our fundamental traits however, the way we are wired from birth and learned behaviour from a young age. As an adult, and especially as an older adult (and I think most of us are beyond the late teens early 20s category) it becomes very difficult to adjust these behaviours.

The difference between the bike riding analogy is that you probably don’t see that as a negative. Maybe if you were a smoker, you’d like to stop. Or a serial killer. Or just a bit of a dick. Maybe you’d want to change then?

On the flip side, I think we spend a lot of time looking for ideals that don’t exist. Sometimes we have to stick out some bad stuff too. I don’t think anyone can give an answer. But, I would say, after things return to normal and she no longer has any urgency of need to change her ways, then she is less likely to make the struggling effort required. Hence slipping back into old ways.

Thank you for the replies so far…
it’s all food for thought for the heart and brain…

Why WOULD i think about going back…
I guess I do miss ‘my family life’ – seeing the kids all the time, the nice family home, the stability it offers. Also i DID have fun times and a connection with the wife..of course I did..we’ve been together 14 years.
I guess a part of me is that ‘there’s a ready and waiting family’ there for me…but…. if i’m incomplete and not respected,loved, or listened to, then it’s (as mentioned) just a veneer…

Funny…the other day we met up and she said to me “did things in the house (she’s currently in the family home) always keep breaking, and you just fixed them without making a fuss?”!!
“yes dear…!”

DrP

I think people can change but it takes effort and time. If you are considering re-negotiating your relationship it might be an idea to go to relate to work out how this might be possible.

People can change things that they don’t like about themselves, that have a negative effect on their lives and the lives of people around them.

Your analogy with bikes is a totally different thing, as that is asking someone to give up something they love, rather than stop doing something destructive that not enjoyable for anyone.

‘there’s a ready and waiting family’

Unless and until ‘loving’ is also in that list, you can’t go back.

Are you asking can people change or are you asking can you take away and deal with the things that are stopping them being themselves and let them become who they want to be again

You aren’t looking for this person to change are you, you’re looking for them to be the person they were before they changed. Yes they can if they decide they want to and they get the support.

You aren’t looking for this person to change are you, you’re looking for them to be the person they were before they changed.

Well put.

I can see why you would want to get back together with her. So I’d suggest starting slow, even go back as far as dating, get to know each other again. Don’t jump straight back in to where you were before.

I’ve just had a thought; if you were getting together with a ‘new’ person, you wouldn’t think about moving in with them or asking them to marry you unless you knew it was absolutely what you wanted and that there was no reason to think that you wouldn’t all live happily ever after. This is no different really, you just happen to have been in a relationship with them before.

I’ve only changed since we split up 😆

Many times I would’ve got back together just to keep the family unit. We did, then split again. Twice! I know how hard it is to let the family go. But then… you have the rest of your lives to live.. Man, it’s just so complicated. I have no answers!

Yes, massively so.

Once upon a time i was an obnoxious arrogant offensive %%$%^&&&%^

Now i’m the fairly sensible, sane and easy going guy….

I changed because one day i woke up and didn’t like who i was… So i fixed it. For a time the me i was wasn’t the real me… But i now believe it is.

I would say people can change but its not easy and as others have said, its slow.

I suspect that if she got back to her ‘comfortable’ state of being a family together then she is more likely to slip on the changes. That’s no reason not to try but perhaps maintain your separation and start over from the beginning (as it were) as the change of conditions might actually help her push forward with the therapy.

Which ever way you decide to go, good luck!

Yes. I used to be a debt ridden spendaholic who was always 20-50k in credit card, overdrafts, and loans etc. The wife sat me down and clearly stated that if I didn’t sort myself out she was off, kids n all.
After a lifetime of it (16-41)I have been debt free for 6 years (apart from mortgage) and shudder at the idea of a credit card or overdraft. I truly feel I have changed, I was trapped in a behaviour, we planned our way out of it together and we stuck to it.

Sustained change yes, change for changes sake I don’t think so.

I’m not one for relationship advice, but I do believe once that bond has broken its time to move on.

Thats probably not what you want to hear, but I wish you well.

Fundamentally, I don’t think so. Certain traits are hard wired into your neurology, people may, given the right circumstances change but there’s always the possibility that a trigger may set off the usual patterns of behaviour such as a stressor response.

Having said that, I’m always trying to improve my personality but then I’m autistic which will never change no matter how hard I try.

It’s a tough one, feeling for you and I hope that you make the choice which is right for you

I think a lot has already been said and it seems that your OH seems more appreciative, remorseful and to be making some proactive steps to change and help.

May I just say that I wish the best for you as this unfolds, you’ve always seemed a decent chap.

Hmmm, very interesting subject.
Me and Mrs W got married in around 2007, had been together for years before that. We got divorced in 2012 and re-married in 2016. Been very happy since.
I was an absolute c0ckwomble of the highest magnitude. I knew at the time that my behaviour was wrong, I wasn’t abusive or violent, but I also wasn’t a very supportive or loving person. I worked away a lot, would drink a lot, spend lots of money in Casino’s and other ahem establishments designed to take lots of money of the male population. I was an amateur Rugby League player and its fair to say that I was also taking steroids. While I was never in anyway aggressive, I do think they give an Alpha Male too much of the “peacock” mentality. I really was an unpleasant person.
My wife decided that enough was enough and as much as she loved me, she couldn’t take my behaviour anymore. I was such a pig ignorant fool that at the time I didn’t care, I did, but I was too full of my own self importance to care about how I was hurting her or the kids.
Anyway, during our divorce after the initial bitterness and money fights subsided, we continued to be in a reasonably platonic relationship. This platonic relationship could at times result in us sharing a bed together (fairly regularly). I realised what I wanted from life and who I wanted to share my life with. It involved counselling to help me to understand where my behavioural traits come from and more importantly to work out a system to help me to understand when I revert back to my old ways. Its not easy, I honestly think I have some sort of in-balance where when things are going really well I subconsciously mess things up.
In our case I had personal counselling and we also did couples counselling. It was hard work, being told certain truths in front of someone can be embarrassing and hurtful. But I think it worked for us.
I know my wife is happy now, I’m a much happier person. I know I have changed, but the underlying narcissistic trait is still there but supressed as much as possible. I’m also someone who is all or nothing, this is something the wife wanted me to change, but its a trait that is just fundamentally me. For example, I have to be the best I can be, I couldn’t accept going into my 30’s and struggling to train due to my body being sore and needing time to recover – then lack of fitness and becoming a second team player. Its the same with my cycling, I have to be competitive with myself (I’m 47 and still racing). I can’t pootle. I’m going for a road ride shortly, if I don’t average over 20mph I’ll be frustrated. (I’m 5 foot 8 and 67kgs, as a rugby player only 7 years ago I was 95kgs). Anyway, long way of saying, I don’t believe people can change in everyway, but maybe some of the worst traits can be eroded to a position where they are acceptable.

I agree – worst traits attenuated. I still spend, but I earn it and pay the bills first..

Never underestimate the influence of your wife’s best friend.

Nope

DrP, I am currently going through a separation/divorce. We have just applied for the Decree NISI, so I can see where you are coming from my friend.
It’s been an emotional couple of months but a torrid 2 years for me. (I was falsely accused of a few things in work which needed emotional support from the wife, which never occured)
The separation /divorce was her idea and she has never once shown any emotion towards me during the process. At times I think, could we make it work, but her behaviour at times has been really nasty and unpleasant. So I am 100% sure I will be better of apart.
Sometimes people can change, the soon to be ex has pointed out my character flaws on a daily basis, and I am determined to change with any future partner.
For yourself, take stock. If it has got to this point then maybe it would be best to separate but try to remain friends.
Anyway, I have a patio to finish….

I think there comes a time when you suddenly see yourself for what you are and it hits you with such a jolt that you can and do make a change for the better.

If that has happened, then I would grab the opportunity to make up before that opportunity goes away.

w00dster… I was kind of hoping you’d chip in… I recall your message on my previous thread, and was thinking a bit about you.
Thank you for being honest and open with me (and the internet!)…

Hmm, o.. I dunno..

TO add to the complications, I have started seeing someone else (hey… DrP are dezirabullzzz 😉 ), and clearly have their feelings to take into account (in the sense, I’m not a douche, so IF i did think there was any thought of re-trying with the ex, I wouldn’t want to string anyone along).

Hmm…

DrP

mmm to be honest I’d say no.

In a similar situation to you, married for 20 years, decree nisi just been issued.

In the last couple of years I was told I had to change….change this, change that, but that’s all part of who I am, like it or lump it. I thought…we both deserve a better life than this. Yes it’s horrible to put our kids through this, but I’m hoping in years to come when the dust finally settles, all members of the family will be happier.

So she maybe one of the few leopards who can change their spots, but I’d be very, very wary and would think she’ll revert to type sooner or later. Stay strong, I know it’s hard.

So basically you’re angling for a threesome?

Another wisdom from the Globalti book of truisms:

Life is full of married men who can’t understand why their wives have changed so much since they met and married women who can’t understand why their husbands have changed so little since they met.

Yes and no.

The first step is reflecting that one has undesirable traits and that they need to be managed. I agree that as people age and life ‘matures’ them these traits can also soften, but i don’t think they ever truly go away. The issue is that when under duress people tend to revert to type, and whether that again causes a breakdown or just a blip.

Ha! To both the above!

Nah, not really…

I think actually we all change – I certainly have. I’ve become more mellowed and calmer, and actively try things to calm me down (meditation… non religious ‘spiritual stuff’ etc). My ex acknowledged recently that I was trying to do this not to annoy anyone, but help myself.

I don’t really need to go into all the details on here, but I guess the changes that would need to be made would be akin to “destructive and narcissistic type behaviors” that carried on despite my upset and protestations…

I just carry the fear/concern that actually, having a husband like me around is quite a benefit – i’m practical, well paid, and love my kids more than anything, and love(ed) being a devoting husband (#humblebrag..!).. I think the devoting bit was taken advantage of somewhat..
It’s hard to know if it’s really ME that’s wanted, or my attributes (which I know is DAFT, because i AM my attributes..>) I’m not really saying this that well am I…..!

DrP

Unless and until ‘loving’ is also in that list, you can’t go back.

Definitely, do you still love your wife and do you believe she still loves you. ? If your not 100% sure be very careful about moving back in.
Mrs taxi and myself had some very rough times largely due to her depression. She’d say “why don’t you just leave”. I’d say “I don’t want to because I love you, but if you say go because I don’t love you anymore I will” she never did, was able to get her depression under control and we’ve been happy for many years. But if either of us had felt the love had gone it would have finnished there and then.