Over the Christmas period I was scheduled to work on the 27th and 30th of December.

I was ill over Christmas so phoned in sick on both those days, as per company policy.

I would have been the only person in the office so if I wanted to have those days off I could have just clocked in and left again.

The deputy manager and ‘big boss man’ of the company (owner) claim I called in sick to get more days off and they quote “expected that I would call in sick“ because I have no more holiday days left.

So now they say those days are going to be unpaid, and I should have come in to prove I was ill and then gone home. Something they seem to have decided between them to try and get out of paying me.

Basically what I am asking is can they refuse to pay me based purely on the fact that they assumed I would call in sick?

Or do they legally have to at least pay me statutory sick pay?

For the record I was ill and so were most of the office, only difference being the rest of the office wasted holiday days being ill instead.

No they cannot do it. Depending on what your contract says but they have to pay you the full contracted amount of pay whatever that is. Clear breach of contract

.

He didn’t say he would, just that he could however depending on the nature of the job/workplace it would be easy to prove he’d bunked off.

As I explained to them if I wanted the time off I would have asked for unpaid days off, which they most likely would have agreed to, judging by the fact they are trying to not pay me for them now.

They seem to have unjustified mistrust and disrespect for their staff despite being a model employee for 6 years.

Ask them politely to put it in writing. There’s an excellent chance they know damn well that what they’re doing is illegal, and you might find they back down sharpish.

only difference being the rest of the office wasted holiday days being ill instead.

They should have had their holidays cancelled and marked as sick too, then.

A bit of incorrect advice up there.

If you were off for 2 days there would be no straightforward entitlement to sick pay unless you have a contractual sick pay arrangement.

You would still be in the waiting period for sick pay, so without contractual entitlement to something else those day’s would be taken as holiday or unpaid, unless you’ve had previous SSP in the past 8 weeks.

rest of the office wasted holiday days being ill instead.

So would you if you’d had some left – if you got full pay for your days off you’re benefiting more than the others which wouldn’t be fair.

That’s the issue with this, maybe you could say a bit of good will wouldn’t go amiss and they should just pay you to keep you happy, but there’d be another thread on another forum complaining about a bloke in the office getting extra days wages for being ill!

They can refuse if they feel you weren’t sick and it’s not justified.

To counter that, when you rang in sick, they could have requested you come in if they had their doubts.

No they cannot Drac. Not a contractual obligation. They can follow up with making all future absences certificated but that annoys GPs no end

the bosses cannot ask you to come in if you are sick either.

No they cannot do it. Depending on what your contract says but they have to pay you the full contracted amount of pay whatever that is. Clear breach of contract

You are assuming that the Boss GAS about any employment law. Don’t forget we live in a word of lies and cheats and it’s accepted to just shrug and ignore complaints.

After the election, I thought people would have learnt this..

I would be asking them to put this in writing as well but as usual it boils down to how much can you be bothered to fight, how long have you been there and how easy it is to get another job

Assuming there’s nothing in your contact (I guess not as you’ve not mentioned it) then they have no obligation to pay you anything (i.e. SSP) for the first 4 days.

Basically what I am asking is can they refuse to pay me based purely on the fact that they assumed I would call in sick?
pay?

They can refuse to pay you because you said you were sick and you (presumably) signed a contract agreeing to the terms.

Or do they legally have to at least pay me statutory sick pay?

No I’m afraid not.

No they cannot Drac.

Yes they can if you weren’t actually sick. Say you claimed to be laid up with a bad back but were seen or found out you’d been away mountain biking.

Wrong in this context Drac. They would have to show he was not sick. Mere suspicion is not enough. If they do not pay him they are in breach of contract – simple as that. Open and shut case at tribunal

We have no idea what his contract is TJ.

No but an employer cannot refuse sick pay on suspicion in any circumstances.

Of course they need proof people but incredible naive though it’s incredible what they put on Facebook when supposedly very poorly.

. If they do not pay him they are in breach of contract – simple as that.

what contract. If they do not pay him they are only in breach of contract if one exists, which sounds unlikely.

No but an employer cannot refuse sick pay on suspicion in any circumstances.

Op isnt on sick pay yet. Employer totally entitled to refuse to pay – again if no contract states. They can’t accuse him of lying about being sick, but it’s not really relevant at the moment.

Good point Nick it’s only 3 days.

But isn’t the Monday the 4th day, with statutory sick pay kicking in ?

SSP is paid when the employee is sick for at least 4 days in a row (including non-working days). You start paying SSP from the fourth ‘qualifying day’ (day an employee is normally required to work). The first 3 qualifying days are called ‘waiting days’.

Interesting…

You cannot count a day as a sick day if an employee has worked for a minute or more before they go home sick.

They need to pay you SSP for the 30th at least

If your contract offers more than SSP for sick days, then they have to pay you whatever it says in your contract.

They can’t (legally) just decide you weren’t Ill based on no evidence.

Edit; very confused.

I first read it as op was off on 27th and 30th but worked the 2 days inbetween.

Then I thought maybe they weren’t Due to work on 28th/29th. If I read that wrong, Yes- that’s 4 days continuous (assuming it was continuous) so op is entitled to SSP for the 30th.

Not anything before though, points regarding ‘waiting days’ unpaid still stand.

£18.85 I think and that’s taxed..

I think op needs to come back with some more info!

I was ill over Christmas so phoned in sick on both those days, as per company policy.

I read that as he rang twice not continued sickness. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Regardless of whether they can or can’t, they like ****staffs so I’d be looking for another job.

Hopefully clear up some confusion I worked the 24th of December.
On the 25th and 26th the premises were closed which, with this company means that holiday days are used on these days.
Because I have no holiday days left I am taking them unpaid.
27th was a Friday which I was meant to work but called in sick, the weekends are days off for me. Monday I was still sick so called in again, but managed to attend work on Tuesday the 31St.

The contract states I must call in within 1 hour of my usual start time for every working day I am off sick so in this case Friday and Monday. Which they claim I am also not getting paid for because they “expected me to call in sick”.

And yes I handed in my resignation today, I just hate the way they have bullied previous employees into quitting with similar behaviour and have decided to stand up to them. I am just hoping to get some clarity on the situation so I can resolutely say I am not accepting this and what you are doing is not right and not just morally..

Edited having checked employers guide

You would qualify for sick pay having been sick for four consecutive days, weekends count as waiting days.

Weekends would not count as qualifying days though, so you wouldnt actually be eligible for sick pay until the 4th working day from the start of the sick leave, so you went back on the 3rd day, hence no entitlement to ssp.

Thats my take on it anyway, unless your contract says otherwise then your making a stand with nothing to stand on.

If you have a contractual right to sick pay ( please clear this point up) then given you have resigned also tell them that you will be taking them to a tribunal for unpaid wages if they do not pay you those two days. It will cost them a lot more than two days wages to defend a tribunal – even to prepare for it and as it would be a clear breach of contract it would be open and shut case.

OP, do I take it that public holidays, ie bank holidays, are included within your annual leave days? How many days leave per year do you get?

Apologies for slight tangent but this is the first time I’ve come across bank hols being taken out of annual leave entitlement.

As it’s only two days I’d personally just start looking for another job, your employers sound like dicks who don’t value you in anyway (beyond your direct contribution whilst in the office working). Not sure what sort of role you’re in but I’d also slack off an hour a day and read STW etc. until you’d made the 2 days back. Even if you have a good case and get them to pay the two days they’re just going to see you as a trouble maker and manage you out – better to go on your own terms now.

Apologies for slight tangent but this is the first time I’ve come across bank hols being taken out of annual leave entitlement.

It happens! Not sure if its the whole of the NHS (probably not the highly paid bastards) but my gf is a nurse and has to book bank holidays out of annual leave. Bloody disgusting.

Apologies for slight tangent but this is the first time I’ve come across bank hols being taken out of annual leave entitlement.

Its really common in the tech industry, because all the offices all over the UK (and rest of world) have different public holidays we just get the 8 added to anual leave then just book the days we actually want off.

but my gf is a nurse and has to book bank holidays out of annual leave. Bloody disgusting.

I am pretty sure nurses get a leave entitlement of 27+ days dependent on time served, plus 8 general public holiday days which they have to schedule as would be expected due to the nature of the job. It could be portrayed as not getting bank holidays, but that would realy be a false picture.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/tchandbook/part-3-terms-and-conditions-of-service/section-13-annual-leave-and-general-public-holidays

but my gf is a nurse and has to book bank holidays out of annual leave. Bloody disgusting.

Well yes if you’re off an additional day due to bank holidays then you use your holidays, if it’s a normal day off then you don’t. 🤦🏻‍♂️

I’d say New Year – new job.

If the trust / treatment has degraded to this level then I’d leave.
It’s over really.

and get some Berocca

my gf is a nurse and has to book bank holidays out of annual leave. Bloody disgusting

we just get the 8 added to anual leave then just book the days we actually want off.

This is confusing. Are you saying BH’s are subtracted from your annual holiday entitlement (in the NHS) or added to it, then taken at a different time?

It happens! Not sure if its the whole of the NHS (probably not the highly paid bastards) but my gf is a nurse and has to book bank holidays out of annual leave. Bloody disgusting.

What MSP said, my companies the same, the office is actually closed on bank holidays, but the system means you still have to book that as holiday. Easier to manage than trying to have one rule for office (9-5, mon-fri) staff and a different for site (24/7, 365) and different for Scottish staff etc. Everyone just gets effectively 33 days holiday.

The upside is you can use flexible working to work around them (e.g. as TOIL or arrange shifts to miss the BH anyway) and then use it as actual holiday some other time.