“The IPPR suggests one model under which anyone who loses their job before they have worked in a host country for three years would have their entitlement to housing benefit, jobseeker’s allowance or universal credit cut from the current six months to three months. Under tougher options, the safety net could be removed altogether.“

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/dec/13/david-cameron-curb-migration-target-jobless-uk

I find myself wondering

Whats going to happen to immigrants who cannot get another job if they lose one, but also have no money with which to travel home & find accommodation there (even assuming they still qualify for help in their country of birth)?
Will they just become street people? Cant help but think this is another un thought through idea.

Or worse, is this really intended to lead to ‘fairness’ by ‘adapting it’ at some near point so that anyone (including UK nationals living and working in the UK) in any job for less than 3 years will get minimal or no social security protection if they loose their job? Is this just a sneaky way of moving everyone to that position in the UK?

I’ve been living for 4 years with no safety net, makes you try harder. Honestly if you can’t get home your not trying.

Yeah, let em try and swim the channel and drown or get on trains and electrocute themselves. That’ll learn em.

I’ve been living for 4 years with no safety net, makes you try harder. Honestly if you can’t get home your not trying.

Apparently, one needs the threat of homelessness, hypothermia or carbon monoxide poisoning by dodgy truck to motivate oneself to work.

I get it now

It’s all just ****ing about because his initial posturing has inevitably met with total disinterest. He’ll end up agreeing some scheme that EU nationals aren’t allowed to claim benefits on rainy Thursdays or something then declare it to be a massive success even though it costs more to implement than it does to change. And therefore he will be Tough On Europe and Tough On The Causes Of Europe.

I’ve been living for 4 years with no safety net, makes you try harder. Honestly if you can’t get home your not trying.

BTW – in terms of available jobs for all – all signs point to massive irreplaceable job losses caused by automation. Every other day I seem to read articles about it in the New Scientist, Economist etc etc

Conservative ideology will be dead in the water within 20 years.

I’ve been living for 4 years with no safety net, makes you try harder. Honestly if you can’t get home your not trying

Agreed, if you are an economic migrant why would you not ensure you have a backup to get home if needed?

BTW – in terms of available jobs for all – all signs point to massive irreplaceable job losses caused by automation.

People have been predicting that for hundreds of years. In reality,the people who would have been doing jobs that are now automated have been freed up to do something more interesting (or at least different).

Eventually, at some point, self-replicating Von Neumann machines will come along and then we’ll either all have a life of leisure and luxury (like The Culture) or become slaves of the machines.

Agreed, if you are an economic migrant why would you not ensure you have a backup to get home if needed?

Why would a homeowner not have a backup in case they lose their job and can’t pay the mortgage? Why do so many people not save enough for their old age? Because they’re trying to survive now, the future is for later.

The problem with lots of these brainwaves is the law of unintended consequences. Sure, yes, it’d be great if every economic migrant had a backup plan to get home if it all goes wrong. But they don’t, so what’s the plan for when they end up on the streets?

It’s like the stupid idea to refuse NHS treatment to foreigners who can’t pay. As if the costs of dealing with the public health problems of untreated people wandering around the general population wouldn’t be a lot greater than just treating them in the first place.

OP there is a danger that if the proposal to remove in work benefits unkess you’ve lived and worked here 4 years is rejected by EU then it will be replaced by a similar rule for everyone inc UK citizens

It’s like the stupid idea to refuse NHS treatment to foreigners who can’t pay

Like in France then ? The NHS is never going to let you die in the street but they sure as hell shouldn’t give you non-essential treatment if you are not entitled to it as a legal resident of the UK.

Yes some people are trying to survive for now and our welfare safety net should be available to support them but our citizens primarily. The whole concept that you can arrive in the UK, work for say 12 months (having paid very little or any tax/NI) and then claim unemployment benefits is madness. Likewise someone arriving on our shores taking a low paid job for £10k paying zero taxes and then having in work benefits top it up.

Its cheaper to pay a ticket home for them than even a week’s housing and benefits. If they are not working then they are a “tourist” we don’t give spending money to skint tourists do we ?

It’s brutal but in Singapore if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country

It’s brutal but in Singapore if you lose your job you have 2 weeks to leave the country

That should ensure a compliant foreign workforce which undermines the wages and conditions of the local workforce.

It might be brutal but “brutality” and fear is what is needed in a workforce.

.

Sometimes it amuses me and sometimes I genuinely despair at the moronic comments I sometimes read on here.

That should ensure a compliant foreign workforce which undermines the wages and conditions of the local workforce.

You can only get a work permit if you can prove you are brining skills and the locals don’t have and will earn a lot so thus pay a lot in taxes. Thats at one end of rhe scale, the other is in labouring for construction projects which the government regards as low skill,work which the Singaporeans should not focus on as its not value added. Singapore government has policies which are very pro the local population

Singapore government has policies which are very pro the local population

You’ve just claimed that they use skilled foreign labour instead of training and developing a skilled local workforce. That is clearly not “very pro the local population”.

Anyway CBA

That is clearly not “very pro the local population”.

Singapore does have a lot of laws that are VERY pro Singaporeans.

For example they subsidise house purchases for locals. The property prices are eye watering but locals in average jobs can afford to buy as the government gives them significant support.

They use the tax revenues generated from overseas business and workers to support their own people.

I’ve been living for 4 years with no safety net, makes you try harder. Honestly if you can’t get home your not trying.

I hadn’t realised that you were a migrant who was forced out of their home country by war, tyrranical leadership or economic desperation. I thought you emigrated out of choice and climbing another rung on the corporate ladder.
My apologies for getting it wrong.

For example they subsidise house purchases for locals. The property prices are eye watering but locals in average jobs can afford to buy as the government gives them significant support.

So completely different policies to those espoused by jambalaya then. Fair enough – I thought jambalaya was suggesting that he supported Singapore’s policies.

Obviously the reference to “brutal” was a criticism not an expression of support.

I thought you emigrated out of choice and climbing another rung on the corporate ladder.

Stepped off the corporate ladder and jumped into something new, how many EU migrants are fleeing war?

Obviously the reference to “brutal” was a criticism not an expression of support.

I don’t know what he meant.

However, Singapore is “brutal” to any “immigrant” workers. No job then get out.

To go and work there at any level is purely an economic decision. IMO it is dreadful place and it would take some serious financial benefit for me to work there permanently.

However, for there own people there is loads of support. http://www.mom.gov.sg/newsroom/press-releases/2015/0708-enhanced-support-for-singaporean-pmes

Isn’t this essentially what they already do in Germany, Belgium etc?

Likewise someone arriving on our shores taking a low paid job for £10k paying zero taxes and then having in work benefits top it up.

But a school leaver would be in the same situation, and they’d have consumed an awful lot of resources getting to that point.

But a school leaver would be in the same situation, and they’d have consumed an awful lot of resources getting to that point.

Vast majority of the school leavers families would of been paying in for years.

who knew trolling paid so well.

Seems odd as if a UK national returns home they cannot get benefits straight away anyway and you cannot have one rule for different EU countries so we would all have to operate under this rule not just foreigners

This would mean say 18 year olds not being able to get anything till they pay in or graduates- given where the youth unemployment peaked it would be messy

Meany racists who want to mean to everyone but especially foreigners

TBH the more i read the more it seems to me he just wants to leave and is just asking the EU for the impossible

Singapore government has policies which are very pro the local population

Fascinating are they in the EU ? then WTF has that to do with anything?

Whats Singapore got to do with it?

At the end of the day its not part of a larger economic grouping of countries, with a central ‘government’ making the rules.

Cameron put this ‘renegotiation’ on the table before the election as he didn’t believe he’s get a majority, so it would all be academic anyway, as his coalition partners wouldn’t buy it. He never imagined he’d ever have to deliver it!

The governments of Poland and the Eastern European states have already told Dave that theres no way on earth their populations will wear this, so he’s got no chance. He then briefly threw his toys out of the pram, saying he would now campaign for a ‘No’ vote then, which was greeted with a collective shrug from everyone else.

So now he’s posturing, because he’s coming back with what his own backbenchers knew he’d come back with… nowt.

So now he’s pathetically trying to look rusty tufty to stop his own backbenches openly rebelling, as he campaigns for a ‘Yes’ vote for an unchanged EU status quo that he’s previously derided (for typical short-term political expediency). Because that is what the Tory party’s funders have told him he has to do, as they demand their constant stream of cheap labour from Eastern Europe.

His worst case scenario is his party declaring war on each other on the run up to the referendum, some defecting to UKIP, thus threatening his tiny majority. I wouldn’t bet against it. Some are truly rabidly anti EU, and would be prepared to sink the whole ship to deliver their desired exit from the EU. They’re all mental! And Dave knows it!

ninfan – Member

Isn’t this essentially what they already do in Germany, Belgium etc?

No. Because it would be illegal under EU legislation.

I think most European leaders have concluded (rightly) that Cameron doesn’t really want to leave the EU, so have ignored most of his childish foot stampy bollocks, and he’ll be forced (yet again) to change his policy on something else.

Tough On Europe and Tough On The Causes Of Europe.

I lol’d 😆

Upon arriving in Germany I was entitled to nothing as I hadn’t been signing on in the UK, despite having had no solid work for several months (was self-employed). After having worked for six months still wasn’t eligible for any handout as you have to have paid in for one year before the state takes you under their wing.
I then went self-employed and am now eligible for nothing… No unemployment benefit. No housing benefit. No pension.

However, had I signed on in the UK prior to me leaving for Germany I would have been given housing, unemployment benefit and would have been eligible for a grant of 1200€/monthfor 12 months when going self-employed.

Yay for me?

Germany are quite happy to handout money hand-over-fist if you know how the system works. Sadly, I didn’t.

Know of some people who on top of their 1800€/month unemployment (60% of their salary) are now getting the 1200€/month start up grant. I doubt they have any intention of staying self-employed one the grant is up….

Me, bitter? Yeah, just a bit. At least I know why I pay so much tax each year.

Vast majority of the school leavers families would of been paying in for years.

Incorrect, as I understand it only the top 40% are net contributors. And also missing the point that the UK system has not had to invest in economic migrants.

No. Because it would be illegal under EU legislation.

Really?

http://curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2015-09/cp150101en.pdf

slight tweak of the time limits maybe, but the principle appears to be fully accepted

His worst case scenario is his party declaring war on each other on the run up to the referendum, some defecting to UKIP, thus threatening his tiny majority. I wouldn’t bet against it. Some are truly rabidly anti EU, and would be prepared to sink the whole ship to deliver their desired exit from the EU. They’re all mental! And Dave knows it!

Its like a race between the two parties to see who can eat themselves

NInfan it is customary to post links that support ones position rather than disprove it….are you jamby or something?

Where an EU citizen who has enjoyed a right of residence as a worker is in involuntary
unemployment after having worked for less than a year and has registered as a job-seeker
with the relevant employment office, he retains the status of worker and the right of residence
for no less than six months. During that period, he can rely on the principle of equal treatment
and is entitled to social assistance.

Their BOLD… nice find mind but it does not support the view he can do this for three months.

Daves plan is three months so the EU rules clearly dont allow this If they did why would he be asking them anyway he would just do it.

Stepped off the corporate ladder and jumped into something new, how many EU migrants are fleeing war?

Don’t use yourself as an example of something unless you’re willing to discuss yourself…

Daves plan is three months

Er, no it isn’t:

The IPPR suggests one model

So, its not “Daves plan” at all – though, like I said, it would be nothing more than the tweaking/extension of existing time limits rather than the introduction of some radical new right wing policy, so the initial question:

Whats going to happen to immigrants who cannot get another job if they lose one, but also have no money with which to travel home & find accommodation there (even assuming they still qualify for help in their country of birth)?
Will they just become street people? Cant help but think this is another un thought through idea.

Can clearly be answered with “presumably no different to what already happens in other EU countries that enforce essentially similar policies” in which case its also hard to support the accusation that this would be another un thought through idea.

Conservative ideology will be dead in the water within 20 years.

Wasn’t that Jeremy Corbyns maiden speech to Parliament in 1983?

Er, no it isn’t:

David Cameron is ready to consider a “plan B” to curb EU migration to the UK, which would involve strict new limits on benefit payments to out-of-work migrants rather than those in jobs, as he seeks to cobble together a new deal for Britain in Europe.

Your second chance to admit you posted a link that countered your point or you know just jamby bluff your way along and claim BS liek this

like I said, it would be nothing more than the tweaking/extension of existing time limits

yes all we have to do is assume that this

Isn’t this essentially what they already do in Germany, Belgium etc?

meant that ..personally yes I will swallow that as its so credible

At least have some credibility as there is no doubt your own link proved you wrong and no doubt that was not what you were claiming.

to admit you posted a link that countered your point

which it might have, had I not caveated it with the words “slight tweak of the time limits maybe” and prefaced my original question with the word “essentially”.

and as you seem to admit yourself “Daves plan is three months” is not the same as “would involve strict new limits” that says nothing about three months (which was a suggestion by a think tank that the newspaper sought to connect to ‘Daves plan’

It’s like the stupid idea to refuse NHS treatment to foreigners who can’t pay. As if the costs of dealing with the public health problems of untreated people wandering around the general population wouldn’t be a lot greater than just treating them in the first place.

+1 Also can you imagine the cost of implementing a ‘pay&bill’ system into the NHS? Lets start at £5bn capax and £1bn opex.

gobuchul – Member

However, Singapore is “brutal” to any “immigrant” workers. No job then get out.

To go and work there at any level is purely an economic decision. IMO it is dreadful place and it would take some serious financial benefit for me to work there permanently.

Lucky you.

However many migrant workers probably make their “purely economic decisions” on a slightly different criteria to yours.

I agree that Singapore’s labour and immigration legislation has bugger all to do with the UK or the EU, however impressed by its brutality jambalaya might be.

In the same way that Saudi Arabia’s judicial amputations has bugger all to do with the UK when we are discussing our government’s sentencing guidelines.

People have been predicting that for hundreds of years. In reality,the people who would have been doing jobs that are now automated have been freed up to do something more interesting (or at least different).

Not everyone has the ability to be a creative type. In fact, very few people are born with the right genes into an environment that promotes that kind of thinking. Most people will end up in service type jobs that require some kind of human empathy, so men will be hit harder.

Economists are worrying about this pretty heavily this time – I’ll take their word over yours. Cheers.

Singapore does have a lot of laws that are VERY pro Singaporeans.

For example they subsidise house purchases for locals. The property prices are eye watering but locals in average jobs can afford to buy as the government gives them significant support.

They use the tax revenues generated from overseas business and workers to support their own people.

They’re also pretty good at keeping indebted Filipinos as slaves, who don’t have money to escape – a side effect of some of the policies being argued for in here.

Gobuchuls views amount to support for slavery.

I think most European leaders have concluded (rightly) that Cameron doesn’t really want to leave the EU, so have ignored most of his childish foot stampy bollocks, and he’ll be forced (yet again) to change his policy on something else.

Well that would be a mistake as whether we leave will be decided by a referendum not by Cameron. Currently it looks pretty evenly split with Leave/Remain at 40% each with 20% undecided.

@biners I mentioned Singapore as people where asking what do you do if you are a foreigner and you lose your job ? In Singapore the answer was leave in 2 weeks, didn’t matter of you had cash in the bank, nor indeed if youmhad 18 mknths to run on your apartment rental and no break clause. Note they chnaged that policy after the crises and nkw you can stay 6 months assuming you have the money tomdomso,mthere are zero benefits from the state.

As above Government housing for locals only costs about 30% of the price of properties foreigners can buy. Also as an aside Singapore is cheaper than central London for property