and in 51 years there wouldn’t be.

Dropping Camelbak is easy as Osprey make better packs

Everyone told me that but mine fell apart. Chest straps break off, the nipples (!) break and keep having to get new ones, the webbing stuff on the side straps disintegrate and a friend’s has done the same.

Went back to Camelbak.

I like their stuff. It’s hard to ditch them on ethical grounds without a decent alternative, but yes knowing this now I may not buy any more of their stuff. It won’t make any difference to them though what a few ethically concerned Brits do.

I’ve moved away from Giro helmets anyway as they don’t do what I want any more and not for a decent price. Found better alternatives.

it’s good to know we can always rely on ninfan to play the role of **** in any debate.

I sometimes wonder if he’s singletrackmark’s brain child in order to boost the number of posts in any given thread.

[Whistles]

If America stopped selling guns to civilians tomorrow there would still be mass shootings for the next 50 years

Best get started then eh?

My first bike was a BSA. The Birmingham Small Arms Company.

The arms industry is morally complex. We need them, absolutely we do, as a country too protect ourselves and other persecuted nations from oppression.  But it like so many professions, I’m glad it’s not me that has to do it.

Yep, it’ll effect my buying purchases. I like Giro shoes, but I’ll have to find something else.

The responses here are somewhat different to the ones on the Singletrack Magazine Facebook article comments section

REALLY different.

Some of the comments imply that people don’t actually realise what ST is, I’d be interested to see how many of those leaving “LIBTARD SNOWFLAKE” comments have ever followed ST on FB, or for that matter even reacted to a ST post on FB…

The arms industry is morally complex.

Agreed but more simply, for lots of people on here it isn’t brands related to cycling being associated with the manufacture and sale of arms for military purposes, but the commitment of that specific umbrella company in donating heavily to the NRA and its lobbying/promotion of civilian gun ownership.

The arms industry is morally complex. We need them, absolutely we do, as a country too protect ourselves and other persecuted nations from oppression.  But it like so many professions, I’m glad it’s not me that has to do it.

That’s not the moral discussion that’s taking place here, though.  What’s being discussed is a company that provides military-grade weapons to civilians, and donates money to an extremely morally questionable lobby group (like, attacking victims of violence in the media, implying that those who speak against them should be met with violence, etc, etc) to ensure their ability to keep doing so.

Wow – the facebook post has really attracted a lot of comments!

Yep, easy decision to make really. If in doubt, follow the money.   Companies make decisions based on financial effect way quicker than moral ones.  I realise that it’s complex and their main market might be sport but even if I can only send a tiny message, a tiny message it is

That is how it’s designed to work, shared once, promoted somewhere else and then it appears on every one of your gun toting, NRA donating mates who will all cut and paste their stock snowflake response etc. it’s not exactly a good barometer of opinions. It does however weed out and “friends” you need to let go 😉

Wow – the facebook post has really attracted a lot of comments!

Yes, it’s great isn’t it.  There are lots of ‘snowflake’ type comments as obviously the post is a bit of a target now but it just gets the base message out further 🙂

The arms industry is morally complex

In the same way that serial killers are morally complex?

Interesting how different the response is between this thread and the ST Facebook one 😳

I think Camelbak had been a supplier to the US army for a while, and possibly also Bell – so I can sort of understand why they’d have got consumed by this particular parent company. I do love my Camelbak and Giro products, but have equal affection for my Evoc and TLD stuff, so won’t have any trouble ditching the former two makes….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtGOQFf9VCE

Who wouldn’t want to fund such repsonsible filmmaking 😉

What, specifically, would you say was “irresponsible” about that film Dave?

Dave – I think it’s the percentage of American fb followers. There aren’t that many on the forum.

It’s pretty telling that those jumping on the ‘won’t buy again’ bandwagon care so much that they obviously never bothered to check out the companies ownership details before purchasing. What else do you have in your possesion that can be linked to such companies? Where is the money in your pension pots invested? What are your employers and their parent compaines involved in? The person you voted for in local and national elections, what are their beliefs?

If you give a **** then at least go all in. Sick of all this hypocrisy when an easy opportunity to show some mock outrage presents itself.

I dont see any ethical reasons not to buy any of those brands, the STW article doesnt actually say much as to how they support the NRA and the comments on this thread dont either. some could do with a “R u ok hun” response TBH.

For all we know, the company might support the NRA as it has a very large membership base of people who like to be outdoors and dont mind spending the money on items to go with this, sponsor the NRA, reach a wider target audience…

Selling sporting rifles is fine with me, selling equipment to legitimate military users is fine with me, donating money or other support for the NRA is not ok. I’ve been using Camelbak and Giro for over 15 years, like the products, but won’t be buying them again.

It’s pretty telling that those jumping on the ‘won’t buy again’ bandwagon care so much that they obviously never bothered to check out the companies ownership details before purchasing.

So if you’ve never checked before you can’t have an opinion now? Wow. I’ve heard some pretty stupid comments on this forum but this ranks pretty well in the top 10% (there’s a lot of dumb shit said on STW).

As it happens, Vista Outdoor only bought the brands in 2016. I’ve not bought anything from any of those brands since that date so I guess, by your rules, I get to have an opinion. And it’s still “**** those guys”

Just as a sample of how Vista Outdoor supports the NRA…

ANOKA, Minnesota – Federal Premium Ammunition is a dedicated 2017 sponsor of the NRA Whittington Center Youth Adventure Camp experience. The NRA Whittington Center is unlike any place on earth. More than 30,000 acres and 17 ranges are devoted to shooting for any kind of discipline. Plus, they offer exceptional guided and unguided hunts, expert firearms training, lodging, cabins and camping, youth programs, a museum, a Pro Shop, and much more.

In 2017, 112 youth attendees will shoot more than 140,000 total rounds over their Adventure Camp experience. They participate in fundamentals of pistol, rifle, muzzleloading, shotgun, archery as well as hunting ethics and other outdoor programs.

To be fair they’re also an extensive partner of the Boy Scouts… in terms of firearms and related activity.

To answer the original question, it wouldn’t bother me in the slightest. It simply doesnt register as an issue to me.

All we can do is vote with our feet so I’m in for boycotting them

I’ve heard some pretty stupid comments on this forum but this ranks pretty well in the top 10%

Okay. Carry on with the virtue signalling then.

It’s pretty telling that those jumping on the ‘won’t buy again’ bandwagon care so much that they obviously never bothered to check out the companies ownership details before purchasing. What else do you have in your possesion that can be linked to such companies? Where is the money in your pension pots invested? What are your employers and their parent compaines involved in? The person you voted for in local and national elections, what are their beliefs?

If you give a **** then at least go all in. Sick of all this hypocrisy when an easy opportunity to show some mock outrage presents itself.

One day, there’ll be a debate on ethics without some clown rehashing the fallacy of relative privation.

Not today, apparently.

<div class=”bbcode-quote”>

In 2017, 112 youth attendees will shoot more than 140,000 total rounds over their Adventure Camp experience. They participate in fundamentals of pistol, rifle, muzzleloading, shotgun, archery as well as hunting ethics and other outdoor programs.

</div>
To be fair they’re also an extensive partner of the Boy Scouts… in terms of firearms and related activity.

To be fair it’s like giving ciggs out for free or trying to get kids smoking, it’s revenue stream for them.

Outside Online have a much better article than the lame STW effort on this particular issue, go read the below and then make up your mind.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2282941/should-our-morals-determine-our-gear-purchases

Yep, that’s me out too. Good to know there is sonething we can do.

Okay. Carry on with the virtue signalling then.

If giving a shit is “virtue signalling” then fine. You carry on with the “**** signalling”

If giving a shit is “virtue signalling” then fine.

But not too much of a shit to actually do anything meaningful about it. Nah, that’s too difficult. Far better to wait until someone else highlights it then jump on the bandwagon with the rest of the sheep instead.

jump on the bandwagon with the rest of the sheep

I love the implication that the writer is some heroic lone wolf, hacking their own path through life’s complexities, never looking at new evidence and making a decision on their future actions as a result.Eyes fixed on the point on the horizon they originally started for they’ll keep pressing on regardless.

I don’t see the ‘complexity’ to it.

For me it’s simple – I think the manufacture and sale of Assault Rilfes and Handguns to civilians is wrong, I think it is a major contributing factor in the death of thousands of innocent people, especially in the US.

It’s not a moral crusade, one of the best (and perhaps the only) way to influence ‘corporations’ (especially American ones) to do anything that might result in a penny less profit, is to make them lose more by not doing it. It doesn’t matter who works at the Camelbak factory and who works in the Death Machine Works. if enough of us avoid those brands someone somewhere wearing a suit will say ‘shit, our sales are down 3% – why is that?’ (only in corporate bullshit speech)  and their numbers people will say ‘consumers are avoiding our brands because some of our other brands make weapons’.

One day, just maybe one day, people who did their own little bit when they can will make the amount of money they lose by making weapons a bigger number than the amount of money they make by making them – and they’ll stop.

I think that’s a more likely way to try to help America, than trying to fight the NRA and their allies through protest and reason – there’s no point trying to reason with them, in a era of ‘alternative facts’ they’ve already got that covered – one side says less guns, one side says more, theirs a counter argument for every fact. So cut of the NRAs money supply.

But not too much of a shit to actually do anything meaningful about it. Nah, that’s too difficult. Far better to wait until someone else highlights it then jump on the bandwagon with the rest of the sheep instead.

And don’t forget that there are starving children in Africa.

perhaps we should add rapha to the list too ?

Walmart, today, already sends significant amounts of money to strong opponents of gun control. The Walmart 1% blog found that between 2010 and 2012, Walmart gave over $1 million to candidates backed by the NRA. They note that “among politicians with 2012 grades from the NRA, 84% of the Waltons’ 2010-2012 cycle contributions went to candidates with scores between A+ and A-.”

Sick of all this hypocrisy when an easy opportunity to show some mock outrage presents itself.

So wait, if I’m not able to find out something for myself, but some-one else informs me, then I’m a hypocrite? and “mock” outrage?, so in your eyes everyone who has said thanks I’ll make an informed decision, is only kidding? Is that not a reflection of your attitude rather than others?

Personally I stopped buying camelbak stuff when they started selling kit to the military ages ago. It just seemed a bit weird to me, so found a different pack to buy; no biggie. On the other hand, Giro stuff is really well made, and fits me quite well (both feet and head) so my choice not to buy it now (as I don’t want to contribute indirectly to funding the NRA, thanks) will be a bit of a PITA…

so, no mock, no outrage, no hypocrisy.

One day, there’ll be a debate on ethics without some clown rehashing the fallacy of relative privation.

And on the same day there’ll be a debate without some clown trying to sound intellectual by using big words which they don’t really understand.