My friend Frank Costin always said an engineer was someone who could design it, build it and then fly it….maybe he was a bit old fashioned?
A lot of stuff i build designed by graduate engineers possibly takes 30-50% longer to build due to clumsy and unthought out design.(composites)

Throwing some fuel onto the fire here, what would you say to an ex RAF technician with only an NVQ level 3 but 9 years real world experience.
Just because you have done the course and got the paper, doesn’t mean you can really do the job

The Job?

which job? engineers and technicians are different professions.

anyway, ignoring that for a moment, just because you’ve done the course, and got the paper, doesn’t mean you can’t do the job – which seems to be what some people are suggesting.

jools182 – Member

Mrovershoot- got any jobs going

In about 12 months yes(we will be looking to train a replacement next March) one of my team will be 67 (he wanted to stay on a couple of years). and another in a few years time too.

If you have a good grasp of industrial electrics & PLC control systems (GEM 80 in our case) and a basic level of mechanical engineering skill in pneumatics/hydraulics then your good to go.

Never mind paper qualifications, it’s what it says on your parking space that matters.

You don’t need a degree to be an engineer and that’s the end of it. You never have and you never will, in fact the term engineer belongs more to those of the dirty hand than to desk wallers (of which I am one). Tough titty.

Arguably “Engineer” should be a term reserved for those of chartered status.

Yrs sincrly, Slowoldman BSc CEng MICE.

How did you get CEng with only a BSc?

Funny that you pic the one job where upon reaching such lofty heights within your profession, you drop the designation that is otherwise given to practitioners of medicine and go back to plain old Joe Bloggs

I wonder whether they get in a tizz if someone uses the wrong title?

Oh yes. Mind you the dizzy heights the knife monkeys surgeons have to scale to drop ‘Dr’ aren’t very high, though the recently MRCS +ve SHO who insists on being called ‘Mr’ generally gets laughed at by everyone else in the hospital.

DOI: Earn my living on the other side of the blood-brain barrier.

How did you get CEng with only a BSc?

In the olden days BEng / BSc was a proper qualification, before they started sending 50% of the population to University and giving BScs / BEngs away with breakfast cereal….

How did you get CEng with only a BSc?

That’s all was needed in those days. Well apart from industrial experience, an exam and a professional interview.

monkeyfudger – Member
Money’s shit, especially for that part of the world.

I was going to say that’s a bit optimistic, offering recent grad type money for some good experience in one of the most expensive parts of the country but I think this put it in more succinctly.

I also got CEng with a non-accredited BSc and no extra exams (but also an apprenticeship before and 10 years experience after graduating).

Don’t really agree with current rules where the above route is much harder to get in, yet an MEng jumps straight to associate member with very little experience.

I also got CEng with a non-accredited BSc and no extra exams (but also an apprenticeship before and 10 years experience after graduating).

I’d argue that you didn’t need a BSc at all. You’d have done plenty exams and an interview is just cock waving.

At the time I became chartered a batchelors degree was the required academic level. The route whereby non graduates (HNC/HND technicians) could become chartered had been closed. That’s something I argued against in my professional interview, but that was how it was.

Having not been in the industry for a long time I have no idea what the current academic requirements are.

MEng. They don’t even like MSc’s a lot of the time. not a fan of stuffy chartered institutes. Full of power mad egomaniacs IME.

stu170 – Member
Throwing some fuel onto the fire here, what would you say to an ex RAF technician with only an NVQ level 3 but 9 years real world experience.
Just because you have done the course and got the paper, doesn’t mean you can really do the job

Stu – your experience could be ideal – please send a CV through

I’d call myself an engineer. I fix stuff and find solutions. I make stuff. I’ve got no degree. I’m the guy who people come to when they’ve run out of things to try.

That’s a fricking engineer.

‘…cost control department…’
Don’t you need an accountant?

‘…cost control department…’
Don’t you need an accountant?

Book keeper. You can’t call yourse…

All you prissy graduates getting your knickers in a twist about the designation ‘engineer’ are the reason our economy has lagged Germany’s in terms of manufacturing. Also why we have a huge cohort of undervalued non-graduates seen as second class citizens, why we have too many graduates who don’t need a degree, and probably why industrial relations have been so shit for the past 50 years.

I hope you’re happy.

Fair enough a MechEng degree is a tough one and rightly so, but as a society/economy we have a skills shortage. Whether that needs to be filled by degree qualified engineers is a matter for debate, but we certainly need more of these so called ‘technicians’!

All you prissy graduates getting your knickers in a twist about the designation ‘engineer’ are the reason our economy has lagged Germany’s in terms of manufacturing.

Except in Germany, Italy, France etc, “Engineer” is a respected designation, a legally protected title , with remuneration befitting people who actually create wealth. In Britain we value accountants and lawyers more and an engineer is seen as a bloke with a spanner and an oily rag.
I was told many years ago by a German,
“Britain is the only country in the world who values the referees more than the players” .
I wonder if there’sany connection tous not making stuff anymore?

bainbrge, you are absolutely right – partly. Yes we churn out too many graduates these days (though probably not engineers), yes we need more non-graduates in industry. Getting rid of apprenticeships and City and Guilds was a bad move in my book.

But, even after that we won’t automatically overhaul Germany as a manufacturing power. That requires ideas and long term investment – not short term returns.

I wonder if there’sany connection tous not making stuff anymore?

Well if the stuff was the same quality as designed by french and italian “engineers” then frankly we’re better off without it.

with remuneration befitting people

We’re getting to the nub of it now aren’t we? does anyone seriously believe that their salary is held back just because some bloke with grubby hands (as engineers always have had historically) gets to call himself an engineer too?
If those so precious really need a special name, it should be “designer”. Leave the term engineer to engineers.

Getting rid of apprenticeships and City and Guilds was a bad move in my book.

That’s the real reason we don’t make much anymore. We don’t have the skill base.

That’s the real reason we don’t make much anymore. We don’t have the skill base.

No it isn’t. I agree we need that skill base but just because you have lots of skilled makers of things doesn’t mean you have the ideas and investment to “actually” make things.

finephilly – Member
‘…cost control department…’
Don’t you need an accountant?

Afraid not – look up Value Engineering – a concept invented in WWII by GE to help reduce manufacturing costs in the war effort

Bean Counters count beans – i work out how much value you can get for your ‘bean’

Fascinating work and still love it as much as i did when I started 12 years ago

No it isn’t. I agree we need that skill base but just because you have lots of skilled makers of things doesn’t mean you have the ideas and investment to “actually” make things.

Well considering we have a huge financial sector, funding shouldn’t be an issue and I don’t for a second think we lack in innovation. Truth is, they make stuff better and cheaper in the Far East now. Those skills we once had we may never get back.

As a previous automotive engineer, i wasn’t overly surprised to see our motor manufacturing sector disappear

British Leyland/Rover is a classic example

In 1959 they produce the Mini – a classic piece of innovation from every angle

In 1981, they launch the Mini-Metro – designed to take on the new Fiesta/Renault 5/fiat 127

In their haste to save money they used the same engine & g/box from the Mini. How on earth did they ever think that this car could be ground breaking??

The motor industry is picking up nicely with Bentley, Land Rover & Jaguar now being successful – but they are owned by foreign companies

There is still plenty of engineering talent and innovation in the UK – but sadly poor management & heavy Union action in the 70s/80s killed of our manufacturing base

We are where we are and we need to excel in what we do best – something i’m lucky enough to be involved in

I don’t for a second think we lack in innovation.

I had a chat with Sir Digby Jones in 2008 and that was exactly what he thought the biggest threat to development the UK was (in comparison to other countries)…that innovation wasn’t at the forefront any more.

Truth is, they make stuff better and cheaper in the Far East now. Those skills we once had we may never get back.

I think this is the wrong end of the assumption.
We have the skills and innovation, but it is cheaper to manufacture elsewhere, end of story. Until that worker/resource exploitation stops (or evens out) then our manufacturing will always be slow. Lots of work that used to be done in China and eastern europe is now coming back to the UK.

Most UK manufacturers biggest cost is their labour..

As a previous automotive engineer, i wasn’t overly surprised to see our motor manufacturing sector disappear

British Leyland/Rover is a classic example

In 1959 they produce the Mini – a classic piece of innovation from every angle

In 1981, they launch the Mini-Metro – designed to take on the new Fiesta/Renault 5/fiat 127

In their haste to save money they used the same engine & g/box from the Mini. How on earth did they ever think that this car could be ground breaking??

And the Mini was a loss leader. Everu car was purposefully sold at a loss… Poor management.

My grandfather spent 30 years at Longbridge as a metal worker. He could cut sheet steel, but as a result of rigid job segregation, he wasn’t allowed to bend it; that was the job of a steel presser, who as the job suggests, wasn’t allowed to cut metal…
Bonkers! a simple job required two men.
It’s the combination of the two that killed British Industry.

Still,in those days, every schoolboy knew the Engineer who designed the Mini. These days, I don’t think I can name a British “Engineer”. They’re usually styled as Inventor or Designer. Much more sexy!

I don’t think I can name a British “Engineer”. They’re usually styled as Inventor or Designer. Much more sexy!

I have to disagree. Alec Issigonis is nearly always called a designer and not an engineer.

I suppose it’s a bit like buildings, they are designed by architects but you need civil engineers to build them.

I don’t think I can name a British “Engineer”

These days you don’t really get a single engineer who can put his name on a production car (may be wrong here?) but in F1 and ‘supercars’ there is.

Gordon Murray ‘designed’ the McLaren F1 car (but could be South African!) but was an engineer, and Adrian Newry is an engineer but is always described as the Red Bull’s designer.

Alec Issigonis is nearly always called a designer and not an engineer.

So he wasn’t an Engineer then?

Gordon Murray ‘designed’ the McLaren F1 car (but could be South African!) but was an engineer

Exactly, he’s South African.
And he still is an Engineer, rum titty rum.

http://www.threaded.com/engineers_song.htm

Hi boltonjohn, I’m not actually after the job,was just highlighting the fact that a degree isn’t always necessary to be classed as an engineer. Cheers anyway, makes me feel good about when I do come to need to find another job

I’d call myself an engineer. I fix stuff and find solutions. I make stuff. I’ve got no degree. I’m the guy who people come to when they’ve run out of things to try.

That’s a fricking engineer.

+1

I work as an ‘engineer’ in a group of other ‘engineers’, in that the term is used as part of our job titles.

I bear no one any malice who’s said this, but it has been remarked by many that I’m the only one in the team who doesn’t have an actual degree in Engineering.

I feel some pity for my colleagues though, all of whom are a good bunch- as there’s not a single one of us who actually does engineering, not as such. Instead, we bend existing productised solutions into something to fit a customer’s requirements- but never invent or develop anything new- that’s forbidden, and done by others.

It rather makes me relieved that I didn’t choose a degree in engineering at Uni- I don’t know if I could have stood the disappointment.

Ironically, I’m the one out of us all who spent years building the products behind the scenes before coming into this role- and now that I do, I do notice a certain contempt for the hands-on guys and what they do.

So we have ‘technicians’ thinking about, developing, refining and documenting the products and solutions that the ‘engineers’ then suggest to customers.

Across industry, this seems to be more normal than I would have believed- do any engineers these days actually delve behind the scenes to see how things really work?

I’m still struggling with this one.

We employ graduate engineers, we then set about training them. I’m what you would call a technician.