beetroot chocolate cake is delicious

I would have to say the humble onion as all meals pretty much begin with it

My gf is vegan and she says: your daughter is maybe not getting enough nutrients and vitamins – you can get every vit/mineral you need from a vegan diet (except B12 which she’ll need to take a supplement for- check out Holland and Barratt) but you both need to learn more about what to eat. Sign up to http://www.veganuary.com you’ll get a starter pack full of info/advice. Also the facebook page is full of newbies and really supportive. It’s fantastic you’re supporting your daughter with her choice but its new for you all so get armed with the facts and get a few recipes up your sleeve and it’ll become second nature. There’s also a great site she might find helpful: http://www.teenvgn.com. Good luck to you both X

I wouldn’t take b12 supplements they suck the absorption rate is terrible. The b12 injections are good. On a cycling forum and no ones mentioned durianrider, freelee, cycling maven, abdula (glucose network). All massively famous cycling channels and all vegans who post their meals.

Ethically sourced meat, that’s a good one.
The cow walked into the kill room were it seen it’s mate die in agony. Then offered itself freely.

I chose the phrase carefully. Perhaps your understanding of the word ethics is different from mine, or perhaps your ethical standards are different to mine. I wasn’t aiming (and I assume the OP wasn’t either) to have “the vegan debate” but presumably most people electing to go vegan does so out of concern for animal welfare. Without doubt some source of meat are better from a welfare perspective than others (rather than just not liking the idea of eating dead animal). e.g. I might argue that wild venison, shot to protect habitats, overgrazing, and the welfare of the collective herd, having lived a free life in the Scottish hills is “ethical”, and that since you’ve killed it you might as well eat it. You can extend that logic to: wild boar and feral goats, some foul (causing water pollution, and inter breeding with native species), rabbits (to protect your valuable veg).

And I might even argue that Goat is “ethical” as a food, as it is avoiding the unnecessary culling of billy goats, where the only (normal) commercial use is for milk, and so billies are useless.

However start arguing the ethics of veganism and you may find you open a can of worms – does it ultimately lead to the extinction of all the species of domesticated food production animal? Does the absence of wool and leather result in increased “chemical” production? Does the absence of animal derived manure result in increased use of artificial fertiliser?

Interestingly eggs would be one of the things I’d find hardest to escape – its the one animal derived food that many people could reasonably produce at home with complete control on the welfare – perhaps hardcore vegans would still not approve – but if the OP’s daughter keeps hamsters in captivity it doesn’t seem a huge leap.

Have you tried rescuing her with bacon? See Al Murray bacon saves lives. Applicable for hangovers and veggies..

However start arguing the ethics of veganism and you may find you open a can of worms – does it ultimately lead to the extinction of all the species of domesticated food production animal?

I don’t really see how that is a bad thing. Many ‘bred’ animals aren’t exactly created with their own self-preservation in mind. They are bred to get as fat as possible, as soon as possible, and other such lovely traits to satisfy our gluttony. Hell, even many dog ‘pure breeds’ are freakshows (sloping backed German Shepherds, Pugs, Bulldogs etc).

Cheers for all the advice – some real food for thought.

She did slip last week with a burger when the rest of the family were getting one – but she’s back on the HMS Vegan now.

BTW – I purposely avoided the vegan debate – there are too many reasons for and against which can counter each argument. At the end of the day it’s her choice and like getting her piano lessons, a bike, a scooter, a hamster to look after or a trip to the beach – it’s about exposing her to as many different things to learn about what she likes and doesn’t. That’s as much an education as school in my eyes

Cheers

Okay non Halal cows want to die then?

They have a self preservation instinct but they don’t think like we do, You can’t compare humans to cows. A bolt gun to the head is painless, we can try it on a vegan and see if they go ouch 😉

Have you tried rescuing her with bacon?

Three pages before the totally original bacon hilarity, I think that may be a record.

I don’t think exploring the ethics of killing animals for food helps the OP in any way. It would make sense to stay on topic.
However in an attempt to contradict myself, I will wade in. Surely the meat eaters can accept that some of us don’t want to kill animals. It is a free choice, less animals will die as a result of it. Where is the harm such that carnivores feel the need to fight against us? We are not hurting you or influencing your life in any way.

Oh and as an ex-baconer I quite like the bacon hilarity. It really is amazingly tasty and brings joy.
Unfortunately it also brings pain and suffering which is why I can easily forgo it.

I think we should respect each others views on the ethics of food production. Meat eaters should understand there is an ethical dimension and be aware of what happens in journey of meat to their table and purchase to improve this. Vegans should not keep domestic “slave animals” espescially cats which kill so many small birds. They also need to understand that the first rule of Vegan Club doesn’t have to be you must talk about Vegan Club. 😉 And I think the Dairy industry poses more ethical issues than Meat production. I could see a place for non-dairy meat-eaters. What are they called?

My Veggie partner’s veggie daughter has just gone Vegan and is also having some health and gut issues but these seem to be settling. Lots of the recipes in “Thug Kitchen” are vegan. It is a journey but there is lots of good stuff out there.

I also just thought I’d say you can easily make some pretty tasty pies with little prep work using jusrol filo pastry (pretty sure that’s vegan friendly). Fry some veggies in some spices, layer up pastry and stick half veggies in, layer of plenty of hummus, stick in rest of veggies, fold pastry over the top. Dried fruit also works in this kinda thing I find.

but presumably most people electing to go vegan does so out of concern for animal welfare

By welfare* you mean they dont want to kill it – I like the way some meat eaters say welfare rather than death r murder or slaughter. Minimising ?

* welfare
?w?lf??/Submit
noun
1.
the health, happiness, and fortunes of a person or group

I think all living things welfare is adversely affected by being killed however “nicely ” you do it. You can of course doi t in worse ways or a better way but it will always affect it’s welfare because it’s dead afterwards.

perhaps hardcore vegans would still not approve

YOu cannot eat eggs and be a vegan anymore than i can only smoke cigars and be a non smoker.

By welfare* you mean they dont want to kill it – I like the way some meat eaters say welfare rather than death r murder or slaughter. Minimising

I agree that it’s weasel words.
People elect to not eat meat for a variety of reasons, mine are that I wish to minimise my personal culpability in the death of other sentient creatures when it is totally unnecessary.
TLDR I don’t want to kill fluffy bunnies.

AGreed
I do get it when meat eaters want farm sourced and hand reared and all that but its just a nicer way of treating them badly its not a method to treat them well.

Its the difference between kidnap and a nice prison and kidnap and a horrible prison – where you end up dead either way.

The later is worse but its not “ethical” or good.It is “less bad” but that is not the same thing as good.

Yes, any reduction in suffering is good, and I am not sure that animals feel imprisoned if they are in fields. My grandparents were farmers and it always amazed me how the cows would come home.
For me it is still killing though. I don’t want any part of it.

A preservation instinct! F#*k me a cow psychologist.
I’m out!

If we’re getting onto ethics – what about arable farming which destroy’s the natural habitat of wild animals and also can endanger them through working the land. I’ve heard a number of stories off farming friends who have seen god knows what enter combine harvesters and other farming machinery.

A preservation instinct!

Any animal without a survival extinct or with a “suicide gene” is going to be a spectacularly short lived evolutionary dead end.
They have a survival instinct for reasons so obvious they really dont need stating.

Three pages before the totally original bacon hilarity, I think that may be a record.

Genuine 😆

Any animal without a survival extinct or with a “suicide gene” is going to be a spectacularly short lived evolutionary dead end.

[Ford] sat down.

The waiter approached.

“Would you like to see the menu?” he said, “or would you like meet the Dish of the Day?”

“Huh?” said Ford.

“Huh?” said Arthur.

“Huh?” said Trillian.

“That’s cool,” said Zaphod, “we’ll meet the meat.”

…

A large dairy animal approached Zaphod Beeblebrox’s table, a large fat meaty quadruped of the bovine type with large watery eyes, small horns and what might almost have been an ingratiating smile on its lips.

“Good evening,” it lowed and sat back heavily on its haunches, “I am the main Dish of the Day. May I interest you in the parts of my body?”

It harrumphed and gurgled a bit, wriggled its hind quarters in to a more comfortable position and gazed peacefully at them.

Its gaze was met by looks of startled bewilderment from Arthur and Trillian, a resigned shrug from Ford Prefect and naked hunger from Zaphod Beeblebrox.

“Something off the shoulder perhaps?” suggested the animal, “braised in a white wine sauce?”

“Er, your shoulder?” said Arthur in a horrified whisper.

“But naturally my shoulder, sir,” mooed the animal contentedly, “nobody else’s is mine to offer.”

Zaphod leapt to his feet and started prodding and feeling the animal’s shoulder appreciatively.

“Or the rump is very good,” murmured the animal. “I’ve been exercising it and eating plenty of grain, so there’s a lot of good meat there.”

It gave a mellow grunt, gurgled again and started to chew the cud. It swallowed the cud again.

“Or a casserole of me perhaps?” it added.

“You mean this animal actually wants us to eat it?” whispered Trillian to Ford.

“Me?” said Ford, with a glazed look in his eyes, “I don’t mean anything.”

“That’s absolutely horrible,” exclaimed Arthur, “the most revolting thing I’ve ever heard.”

“What’s the problem Earthman?” said Zaphod, now transferring his attention to the animal’s enormous rump.

“I just don’t want to eat an animal that’s standing there inviting me to,” said Arthur, “It’s heartless.”

“Better than eating an animal that doesn’t want to be eaten,” said Zaphod.

“That’s not the point,” Arthur protested. Then he thought about it for a moment. “Alright,” he said, “maybe it is the point. I don’t care, I’m not going to think about it now. I’ll just… er […] I think I’ll just have a green salad,” he muttered.

“May I urge you to consider my liver?” asked the animal, “it must be very rich and tender by now, I’ve been force-feeding myself for months.”

“A green salad,” said Arthur emphatically.

“A green salad?” said the animal, rolling his eyes disapprovingly at Arthur.

“Are you going to tell me,” said Arthur, “that I shouldn’t have green salad?”

“Well,” said the animal, “I know many vegetables that are very clear on that point. Which is why it was eventually decided to cut through the whole tangled problem and breed an animal that actually wanted to be eaten and was capable of saying so clearly and distinctly. And here I am.”

It managed a very slight bow.

“Glass of water please,” said Arthur.

“Look,” said Zaphod, “we want to eat, we don’t want to make a meal of the issues. Four rare stakes please, and hurry. We haven’t eaten in five hundred and seventy-six thousand million years.”

The animal staggered to its feet. It gave a mellow gurgle. “A very wise choice, sir, if I may say so. Very good,” it said, “I’ll just nip off and shoot myself.”

He turned and gave a friendly wink to Arthur. “Don’t worry, sir,” he said, “I’ll be very humane.”

It waddled unhurriedly off to the kitchen.
[From The Restaurant at the End of the Universe, Chapter 17.]

If we’re getting onto ethics –

I was rather hoping we wouldnt. Recipes are good.

what about arable farming which destroy’s the natural habitat of wild animals and

You mean the type of arable farming that destroys habitats? Intensive farming? Arable farming simply describes the growing of crops as opposed to pastoral farming which involves raising animals for slaughter.

The thing with whataboutery is it often comes across as ‘ner, ner, ner, ner neeeer’. I suppose that wasn’t your intention but hey ho. I spend a lot of time with land-owners and volunteers who now (after 5 years of trial and error) grow all of their own veggie food (supplemented with roadkill and gifts of game) and the land is an absolute haven for wildlife. All sown and harvested by hand and without pesticides. The sharing of knowledge from visiting volunteers has been an incredible experience and now complementary planting and forest garden have increased both the yield and the habitat.

A better world would look more like a busy community allotment and weekly market than a supermarket aisle and a dust-bowl. IMO.

MalvernRider – Recipes are good!

It’s worth remembering that a fair bit of crop farming is also for animal consumption.

Anyway, we made this last night and it’s pretty quick to do and really tasty http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/1124/moroccan-tagine. Burgers are pretty easy to make and pretty versatile, can have them with beans and chips, in pita bread, on baps etc… One of my favourite falafel burger recipes is http://www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/5605/falafel-burgers and it’s basically bung stuff in food processor, shape, fry. Have with whatever else, sweet potato chips go well with them.

Mmm Falafels…

https://www.rivercottage.net/recipes/north-african-squash-and-chickpea-stew

Beanburgers: I made this a little while ago, only with kidney beans instead of black beans. It was tremendous.

Easy Grillable Veggie Burgers

good to see things back on topic instead of the tedious dirge of people trying to convert the unconvertable

My auntie bought me this when I was 18 or so. Probably the saddest gift ever but I probably still use some of the recipes, albeit honed over two and a half decades. The recipes were easy, well within the skills of a young teen, and there is a shopping list for each coming week. Might be worth keeping as a backup for the OP.

good to see things back on topic instead of the tedious dirge of people trying to convert the unconvertable

Soothing words like that will almost certainly help keep it on track

If Trump reads this he will hire you as a diplomat :Wink:

hah.. sorry. Probably spent too much time running hunt sab stalls in various town centres and other thankless tasks!

on a similar stall my misses once said to a woman we are all animals – the lady said well they are only animals in relation to cattle- and this lady went mental saying did you just call my mum an animal- her mum was at least with her.
I diplomatically intervened with would you prefer we called her a vegetable to calm the situation.

What did you call her?

Junkyard
“but presumably most people electing to go vegan does so out of concern for animal welfare”
By welfare* you mean they dont want to kill it – I like the way some meat eaters say welfare rather than death r murder or slaughter. Minimising ?…

I have no problem using the word death or slaughter. I think Murder is an unnecessarily emotional word, but if you want to try to use emotion rather than logic to have a discussion I can join in. But, people go vegetarian because they don’t want to kill animals (amongst other reasons), surely people go vegan because they are concerned for the welfare – after all dairy produce doesn’t fundamentally require the killing of animals? [although I am well aware that modern farming practice is such that it often does]

For the avoidance of doubt I am not trying to convert anyone – my comment was made originally about a 12 yr old who has made an overnight decision to go from eating anything that comes her way to being vegan. I was simply suggesting that there is a spectrum and perhaps a progressive transition might be more acceptable (and might take some of the rest of the family on the journey too).

YOu cannot eat eggs and be a vegan anymore than i can only smoke cigars and be a non smoker.

The vegan society says “Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable, all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.” Now is it more exploitative/cruel to keep “pet” chickens and use their “waste” eggs than to keep a collection of hamsters for your social pleasure? Now it may be if you want to be part of the club there is an official answer that you are expected to adhere to – but as far as I know “vegan” is not a protected term and a 12 yr old who is passionate enough about the topic to change her eating habits would probably enjoy thinking about that ethical question. Ideally she’d make her own mind up on each issue though rather than being told by others what she must do to use a particular label.

Probably spent too much time running hunt sab stalls in various town centres and other thankless tasks!

Having done some time on those myself, I was always quite encouraged by the general support we received from passers by. The nutters were always in a tiny minority.

” Now is it more exploitative/cruel to keep “pet” chickens and use their “waste” eggs than to keep a collection of hamsters for your social pleasure? Now it may be if you want to be part of the club there is an official answer that you are expected to adhere to

or it may just be that the word actually means something.
as your quote continues

Yet one thing we all have in common is a plant-based diet avoiding all animal foods such as meat (including fish, shellfish and insects), dairy, eggs and honey – as well as products like leather and any tested on animals.

so even your source agrees with me that vegans dont eat eggs- great example BTW 😉

Ideally she’d make her own mind up on each issue though rather than being told by others what she must do to use a particular label.

I’ve always said this. The answer to “what can a vegetarian eat?” is “whatever they choose to.” The label is a shorthand for the benefit of others, not a definitive guide to what you should and shouldn’t eat. If you want to just avoid red meat, or live the strictest vegan life imaginable, fill your faux-leather boots. Everyone should make their own dietary choices, not seek to aspire to a label.

I’m not strictly 100% vegetarian as I still eat sweets with gelatin, beer / wine with finings and so forth, as they’re both difficult to avoid without giving up completely (and who wants to give up beer?) but I’ll take the whatever-free option when available.

And yeah, I was never a big meat-eater to start with so going veggie wasn’t a huge deal, but even then I did it gradually over a period of time. Going from 0 to 100 in one bounce is a bad idea IMHO, it’s difficult to manage, difficult to adapt and difficult to stick to (as evidenced by the fact she’s already fallen off the wagon once).

(Seems to make you argumentative, too… 🙂 )

jedi – Member
i’m not vegan but have been veggie for 14yrs.
i like cheese too much

Makes a note to go for a course with Jedi, sounds like he has his head screwed on just right.

I’ve always said this. The answer to “what can a vegetarian eat?” is “whatever they choose to.” The label is a shorthand for the benefit of others, not a definitive guide to what you should and shouldn’t eat. If you want to just avoid red meat, or live the strictest vegan life imaginable, fill your faux-leather boots. Everyone should make their own dietary choices, not seek to aspire to a label.

I feel this about life in general, it can be applied to politics, sports, personal activities and sexual preferences. Wise words.