Got a lovely 60 mm carbon wheelset from Farsports with 54T ratchet DT350 hubs (24H disc st-pull, tubeless hole-free rim bed, CX sprints, branss nipples: 1850g and £588 delivered duty paid if you’re wondering), it makes a wonderful infernal BZZZ sound with not so great BZZZ-bzzz oscillations.

I’d prefer the sound not to oscillate, from what I’ve heard (on forums and on YT videos) this is very common and the two main hypothesis are:

1. Unbalanced wheel
2. Uneven spring tension

Any truth to either of these and if so can it be fixed? (I’m aware #1 can). All I want is a nice even BZZZZZZZZ like my Hope Pro 2 Evo had sniff. First world problems..

I’ve had that on every dt swiss hub I’ve ever had. Never been that bothered about it. I always get my wheels built and checked by a local expert and the spokes are all very much within tolerances when it comes to tension.

First world problem?

I’m pretty sure it is because the springs apply a little more force on one side due to the coil spring being what it is, so there is as every revolution there will be a point where the sides of the rings with higher force being applied will meet and produce more noise.
You could try a little more grease in there to damp down the sound.
Tweaking the springs so they collapse a little more level at the position they are at in the assembly, but that’s going to be tricky and more likely damage the springs.

I’ve heard a couple even sounding ones Fat-boy e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTvilMFyhOM, so maybe it’s avoidable could just be the hubs being very sensitive to wheel balance and spring..positioning? There are two springs, could rotating them counter to each other to balance how they apply force to the ratchets help? Guess it’s not that hard to try..:S

K – yeah that could do something..

Balancing didn’t make any difference (used blue tack applied opposite of valve and checked for vibrations holding the seat and spinning the wheel fast, 9 grams did the trick).

Taking a look at the springs..

Springs are rotating in relation to each other so it’s not position. It’s the angle of the bend towards the last coils that are flat that determines how much pressure is applied overall to the last coil. So it’s going to be super tricky to get right as the correct angle to apply an even force both sides of coil face will actually change with how much it is compressed.
If you were really botherd you could try to find something like wavey washer springs stack (can’t remember what they are called at the minute) if the correct size and force but you’ll have to be really bored/obsessed to do that.

I think it could be a build up of grease which then gets moved back around.

K Right they are rotating, i guess not in sync so position wouldn’t matter?

You mean Belleville Washers or simply wave springs? I might just be..

Don’t love the spring setup of the DT’s, not so robust – prone to getting the springs jammed just happened to me and a spring bent and made an indentation on the spacer ring..

Are they genuine DT Swiss hubs?

Mine do that, I’d always assumed it was down to the springs. I quite like it.

Got DT350 hubs on two bikes and they both sound different. One is noticeably louder so could be due to different rims, tires, spokes, even frame material?

The rims make a difference, carbon rims seem to act as amplifiers.

Next thing I’ll try is to to remove one or both springs and see if the sound becomes even (obviously can’t use the bike but should hear the sound).

No springs naturally didn’t work at all, only using the top or bottom spring didn’t make a difference in sound.

You could try a little more grease in there to damp down the sound.

Don’t do this with a 54t.

Clean and regrease and make sure your spacer sleeve is also free on the axle.

Crest to crest wave springs, if you find some the right spec I’d be interested.

It’s just a thing they do sometimes. A little more grease will make it quieter, but if you leave it a while it’ll probably change by itself as bits move around.

The spacer actually got damaged from the spring wedging into it somehow and the spring bent, bit of a rubbish system (springs were installed in the correct orientations so it shouldn’t happen), ordered a new spacer and set of springs – see if they make a difference. Currently missing the pawls of my Hope Pro 2 Evo – never had any problems 😉

K I think it will be hard to find a spring with the right dimensions and such low spring force, I’ll measure the force when I get the new springs. Noticed DT came out with a new system not too long ago that only uses one spring btw.

Considering a rebuild with Hope RS4 straight pulls which seem to be the bee’s knees, but see how it works w new springs first.

Why would you downgrade your hubs?

The new design is to drop a bit of weight and make a new version on the previously top spec 180s hubs (ceramic bearing jobbbies)
IMO there’s actually nothing wrong with the 2 spring design and it will continue in production and the vast number of 240/350 (440, 340, bontrager etc) hubs in existence will continue to be super.
The spacer can however get mushroomed if it’s over tightened in the dropouts and this is more likely where your issue started.
Conversely, not tightening your rear axle enough and having it back off when riding and you could strip your stars..as well as overloading with grease.

My 2p

“The spacer can however get mushroomed if it’s over tightened in the dropouts and this is more likely where your issue started.”

Possibly what happened, but shouldn’t the spacer prevent this? Disagree that there’s not something wrong with the design. The spring shouldn’t be able to get wedged like that when oriented correctly nor did I tighten the dropouts a ton.

“Why would you downgrade your hubs?”

Because it’s an upgrade.

+ No faff with the star ratchets and springs getting stuck, pawls are a more robust design.
+ Much less drag.
+ Much nicer noise IMO (more subtle, good for road)
+ Stainless steel bearings
+ Non oscillating noise
+ Subtler logo
+ Got the hub tools already
= Weighs the same
= Similar engagement
– Cost £40 more (+ rebuild cost obvs).

think less, ride more

Don’t discriminate against objectum sexuals. Thanks for the bump!

yohandsome
Member

+ No faff with the star ratchets and springs getting stuck, pawls are a more robust design.

No they aren’t… More wear, more moving parts, pawl tips wear and springs snap. And not as well sealed, in the hopes. The star ratchets are one of the most proven systems in hubs. Both systems work well but the star ratchets are more reliable.

Agree with what K said… It’s never bothered me in the slightest, but the nature of the design does mean that pressure isn’t applied equally all the way around the ratchet rings, and as the one turns in relation to the other when you are freewheeling, there is going to be a change in pitch of the sound emitted due to the slight variation in spring pressure on the ratchet teeth as it spins.

As for Hope hubs being an “upgrade”… 😂

The oscillating has never bothered me, though I only have them on the MTBs. I also grease them reasonably regularly to keep them quite.

Quick question, the spacer that slides over the axel can be a right bastard to get off on occasion. Any reason why that might be? TIA

No they aren’t… More wear, more moving parts, pawl tips wear and springs snap. And not as well sealed, in the hopes. The star ratchets are one of the most proven systems in hubs. Both systems work well but the star ratchets are more reliable.

From what I can tell, and my own experience with the Pro 2 evo, pawls are simpler (no real risk of jamming springs upon install), cheaper (54t ratchets $$$ pawls $) and more robust.
Heard about more people with chipped ratchets, also ratchets esp 54t are more sensitive to the amount/viscosity of grease used. After trying them I don’t get the ratchet or DT hub hype, Hope is better and had actual human customer support, try contacting DT LOL! Seals are good in both.

That said, happy to keep the DTs if the noise can quiet down and even out (carbon rims = amplifiers). You’re only supposed to use a thin layer of DT ratchet grease or else you risk damaging the teeth, which limits how much you should quiet them that way. See what happens with a new springs and a new spacer next week. Also asked for a Hope RS4 rebuild quote.

I had something similar on a very cheap hub that came with a wheelset from Zuus. I haven’t taken the hub apart to see how it’s made, but I imagine it’s nothing like a DT hub.

Until I noticed it I didn’t notice it at all, but once I *did* notice it, it was really quite annoying, so much so that I switched out the hub for a Superstar one.

Until I noticed it I didn’t notice it at all, but once I *did* notice it, it was really quite annoying, so much so that I switched out the hub for a Superstar one.

The combination of roadbike (higher speed) and 60 mm carbon wheels makes the oscillating noise a lot more pronounced, might not have noticed it on a MTB with alu rims. It sounds like the wheel is broken to me.

An unbalanced wheel might also cause such noise.

yohandsome
Member

From what I can tell, and my own experience with the Pro 2 evo, pawls are simpler (no real risk of jamming springs upon install),

Still have no idea how you managed that with the DTs tbh. They just drop in. It’s a simpler system than fitting in springs etc, just 2 springs and 2 stars stacked up. These have been around forever- my own hubs are at least a decade old- and I’ve never seen anyone have an issue with it.

Still have no idea how you managed that with the DTs tbh

Turns out it’s not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much (which shouldn’t be possible due to the spacer). Can you tell me how you’re supposed to “mishandle” the install given that the springs are correctly aligned? It’s a poor design + springs have uneven load creating annoying oscillations. Never had any such issue with the Hope evo, guess it’s less susceptible to mishandling :p

yohandsome
Member

Turns out it’s not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much (which shouldn’t be possible due to the spacer).

No, you’ve misunderstood Bearback’s post- he was describing how the spacer can get damaged due to overtightening. It’s the spacer itself that’s damaged so “shouldn’t be possible due to the spacer” makes no sense.

But you’d have to be seriously cackhanded to crush a metal spacer in a hub like this.

No, you’ve misunderstood Bearback’s post- he was describing how the spacer can get damaged due to overtightening.

Ok, yep I misunderstood what he meant by mushroomed.

Yes the spacer wasn’t damaged from over tightening – it has spring size “bite” marks on its side and no signs of mushrooming, it was damaged from the freewheel side spring somehow wedging in between the spacer and the ratchet, and when i tried to turn the crank the tip of the spring dug into the spacer and bent. If I had known this could even happen I would have been more careful trying to turn the crank, but if the design had been good it couldn’t have happened in the first place.

Turns out it’s not uncommon and another user here aware of the issue said it could be due to tightening the dropouts too much

I absolutely wasn’t suggesting that your issue was common.. its not..
I was looking for something that I’m aware has happened that might have contributed to your very uncommon problem that could be attributed to user error..

Reading back your posts suggest that you damaged the parts on reassembly…which again is uncommon

Back to the noise. I’ll service my star ratchets when they start getting overly noisy. More noise means they’re approaching too little grease.
cassette/driver off, springs/washers/spacer off, wipe off old grease, light coat of red (oddly minty smelling) grease and reassemble with hands…not a lump hammer;)

Go careful when you get your new parts. larger diameter of the spring against the bearing faces, smaller against the stars.
Slide the driver body on slowly and sometimes you need to put your pinky in the end of the driver to align the driver boy bearing spacer with the wheel axle and driver bearings.
Once both starst are keyed to the drive ring and driver body you can slide everything home. The axle end cap has an o-ring that snaps in place to keep everything together.

Co-incidentally I rode with my wife yesterday, her XM1501 is BZZZbzzzBZZZ’ing so I’ll take 5 minutes and regrease it today.

Surely you won’t have to freewheel if you’re maintaining a steady ~30mph?

@BearBack Thanks for the advice, however I said it was not uncommon based on reading about people having similar problems elsewhere, but maybe I was just very unlucky. I don’t think it’s as uncommon as you think and as I said the springs were aligned correctly and yes I used my hands. But good to know that mushrooming is a potential issue.

@submarined it’s wimdy here, freewheeling at 30 mph in tailwinds :p

I’ve had that on every dt swiss hub I’ve ever had

Mine too.

I think “They all do that, Sir”

Not all: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTvilMFyhOM

Mine: https://streamable.com/qqrve

Long time Hope fan here but the DT hubs that came OEM on my current bike (in 2015) have been great. I’d have either. I have broken several ratchets in my time (trials rider) but I’ve learnt to trust the DTs.

I have noticed the BZZZZbzzzzzBzzz but can’t say it bothers me when they work so well.

I have broken several ratchets in my time (trials rider) but I’ve learnt to trust the DTs.

Broken DT ratchets or other ratchets? Don’t think the BZZZbzzz would be so bad on a MTB, but on a roadbike with carbon wheels it gets a bit too infernal.