Specifically Les Gets. Yes I know there are cheaper places to look at, but we like it there, both in Summer & Winter 🙂

Whenever we go anywhere we have a little browse in the windows to see what’s for sale and dream. I guess we’d be looking at something that would be for the long term, probably a studio comfortable for 2 (4 at a squash), we’d be likely to want to use it between 3 – 5 weeks a year and rent it out as much as possible other than that – I presume there’s a period inbetween the seasons when Les Gets is dead and it’d be empty.

Does anyone own anything that can offer some insight into how to go about it and how it works for them? Does letting it out cover mortgage & running costs? Any actual profit on top etc?

It’s a few years off, (and post Brexit might be off the table anyway), but it’s something I wouldn’t mind exploring.

Cheers

@stoner may be able to advise. IIRC he has a place in Morzine.

Almost pulled trigger on a house in LG this year but once i considered the capital, the relative lack of capital gain, running costs and fact that it would need to be rented I decided that for the cost of the running costs I could have 3-4 weeks a year in a massive chalet instead. YMMV.

As NZCol for us. We keep looking in the estate agents and the ones we like are 7 figures, the ones we can afford are usually very small or way out of town. In summer a very good chalet is very cheap. In winter I’d prefer to go to different resorts. Don’t get me wrong, if my numbers come up I’d buy something in a shot but with real money I don’t think it quite works.

Some friends of mine have an apartment over the hill in Samoens.

LG is just slightly naff, it’s a ski resort which means it isn’t really lived in (community)

Samoens on the other hand is a community, you can ski, bike and crucially IMO other stuff to do ie shops, walking, play bowls etc.

They have had it over 15yrs now. Apparently they haven’t made much money on it so far (despite in that time Samoens massively increasing in popularity)

They also feel compelled to spend every holiday there. They did try letting it out but then obviously you have to let it out in school holidays, which means you end up never using it yourself.

I don’t think they will get rid of it in a hurry now, but with the benefit of hindsight they wouldn’t buy again

obviously you have to let it out in school holidays, which means you end up never using it yourself.

Unless you don’t have kids 🙂

We bought a place in an unknown (to Brits) ski village in Austria in 2012. It’s just down the road from Leogang.
Spent around 3 months renovating it.
There’s been a lot of money spent in the resort since we bought and property prices have pretty much doubled.
We go every school holiday but still get around 10 weeks of rental every year which covers the mortgage and all bills.
It can definitely work but you need to find an up and coming resort.

@stoner may be able to advise. IIRC he has a place in Morzine.

Hopefully he’ll drop by 🙂

I decided that for the cost of the running costs I could have 3-4 weeks a year in a massive chalet instead. YMMV.

Yep that’s the bottom line I guess.

As NZCol for us. We keep looking in the estate agents and the ones we like are 7 figures,

It seems very easy to get in to 7 figures, especially in the prettier resorts.

Some friends of mine have an apartment over the hill in Samoens.

Makes sense about buying in a town/village rather than a resort. I’m currently put off Samoens after a rubbish day snowboarding in Flaine – must go back and try again when it’s not miserable and raining. We’d definitely aim to rent anything we did buy out, it wouldn’t be worth it if it say empty 45+ weeks of the year.

@colp that sounds perfect and probably the only real feasible way of doing it for us, so that we get some financial gain out of it. What village?

We’re in Maria Alm

http://www.apartmentamade.com/

In France house prices don’t rise like in the UK. Don’t look at it as an investment.

Phil, I’ll ping stoner in the morning.

I’ve got a studio place in meribel. Great skiing, MTBing inmproveing.

as people have mentioned before, the money spent does not equate to money saved on holidays. I could have stated in 5* places for the number of weeks I;ve been there/money spent.

Hwoever it was money spent on a mortgage not on rent etc.

I hardly use it making it a waste, but I now want a bigger place to make it worthwhile.

I know rent it out over the winter season to seasonnaires, which covers about 75% of the years mortgage.

Basically, buy it so you can use it, make sure its big enough that you can fit in who you want to fit in. Don’t think of it as a money making investment as you;ll be conflicted about committing to renting it out vs using it yourself.
but maybe consider it a safe investment (in another currency) overall.

happy to give some more detailed pointers on the route I followed to actually purchase if you want to DM me

Basically, buy it so you can use it, make sure its big enough that you can fit in who you want to fit in. Don’t think of it as a money making investment as you;ll be conflicted about committing to renting it out vs using it yourself.
but maybe consider it a safe investment (in another currency) overall.

Slightly different in that it’s a flat by the beach, not in the Alps, but I’ve had the same debate with my holiday flat – and for the moment it’s my flat, not a rental flat. I wouldn’t try and combine the two: you’ll be renting out at the most desirable time (ie when it’s hot, or in your case when there’s snow), and if you’re renting you need to keep the place clean and empty – no leaving your bike / skis / crap there year round.

I consider mine an investment for the future (I bought cheap), a place to use for the next few years, and if my wife and I get bored of it we can turn it into a rental place but without the expectation of using it myself.

Hi Phil
just seen this.

Yes we have two v small apartments in Montriond, just outside Morzine (2x because our boys are getting bigger and they are v small apartments, 21sqm each)
Nothing special and not really v expensive. Middle of resort costs a whole lot more.

Numbers for us may be a little different for you if you choose to stay in Les Gets. Personally I think the Morzine valley is better because it is more alive in the interseason and has better bus links.

Our apartments will sleep 4 each very intimately but, with the one bedroom, its much more comfortable to sleep just 2x.
For each flat
Taxe d’Habitation costs €330 a year
Taxe Fonciéres costs €290 a year
Service Charge about €500 (which includes water)
Electricity – depends on occupation, but say €30pm on average

Interest rates are pretty low, we have a 1.28% capped rate on one of the flats
Mandatory Life insurance is a bit pricey. Close to another 0.5% interest equivalent.

We spend a lot of time at the flat, mainly as I can work from anywhere, so depending on school holidays I might be there for between 8 and 12 weeks a year which makes it more cost effective with our lifestyle.

We dont let out one flat, that’s got all our stuff in.
But the second one we let to local friends in France (currently the chef from the local bar is staying there during the interseason before he goes on to a Chalet for the winter season.) At €10 a night its very cheap for him, but easy cash for us which covers most of the costs of owning the flat for the year. Some other friends are having it for a NYE week and a week after Feb HT. I think I’ve asked for €25 a night from them.

So I might make about €1,000 a year from letting to friends, rather than putting it on Air B&B and sorting out a changeover service. Market rate is probably about €40-80 a night depending on season. But you’d need to allow at least €50 for a changeover.

I could make a few hundred more € letting both flats for the Feb HT if I wanted to.

Mainly for us, the costs of ownership make for relatively inexpensive holidays. The ability to have all your outdoor kit in the mountains ready to go (we have road bike, MTB, snowboards, skis, clothes, hiking, trail-running kit etc all in a cellar under the block) MY boys and I have just spent nearly 8 weeks in the mountains. It’s been great. Mrs S joined us for about 4 wks of that.

Buying is not too difficult. Esp if you buy in a block. The combination of the Notary process (legal triple checking everything) and a reliance on the other block co-owners to have kept the block management company in check means that the risks of getting screwed are substantially reduced. Acquisition taxes came to about 10%.

These ladies helped us out with finding the first one, they were very good.
http://www.francepropertyangels.com/index.htm

This excellent solicitor helped us with the contract translation and report on contract
https://www.buckles-law.co.uk/site/people/profile/sally.dilks

The second flat we didnt need to use a solicitor or agent as it was bought from an acquaintance and having done the same process earlier I was more comfortable going ahead with just the security of the Notary the second time.

if you have other qus, whether generally about buying or specifically the Morzine valley, drop them in here. I’ll pop back and check the thread, but then its all in one place for others to find. Do PM if you wish too.

EDIT: RE feeling “compelled” to go there for hols. Yes that is a thing, but in owning only very cheap flats, even if we weren’t to go to them for a whole year, we could recover most of the cost of ownership letting them out through an agency for the peak weeks. Also we find Morzine valley has so much to do we can be happy there all summer. And the PDS for skiing is such a huge area, there’s a different sector to ski every day of the week. We will want to go other places in the not to distant future, perhaps Id like to do a “week exchange” with someone who has a place somewhere else. Or we can sell them, probably for what we paid for them. But that wont be for at least another 10 years.

If you’re buying it with an eye on it being an investment as opposed to purely lifestyle, you need to consider Forex (assuming you’re paid / living in a non euro country atm).

I’ve always viewed buying a foreign property a massive FX bet – obviously this can go both ways.

And as above, ski resorts in France appear to command top whack, but with little growth prospects

It won’t be very cost effective even without the Forez risk highlighted above. Makes no economic sense but then again it is not my money.

Almost pulled trigger on a house in LG this year but once i considered the capital, the relative lack of capital gain, running costs and fact that it would need to be rented I decided that for the cost of the running costs I could have 3-4 weeks a year in a massive chalet instead. YMMV.

I came no where near pulling the trigger as I couldn’t come close to affording one, but I dared to dream once and came to the same conclusion as you.

If I have the cash to buy outright or so much extra income that I could have it as a second home just for us, I couldn’t bring myself to pay the sorts of prices to own a place in a resort town, I’d feel happier buying a place a short-ish drive away for a fraction of the cost.

Of course, if I won the lotto or something, I buy a great big lovely place in Morzine. I don’t like winter sports, but I’d be pretty happy to travel down as soon as school ends in July and head home 6 weeks later.

holiday homes are hardly ever a good investment. Even more so now in France with a shocker of an exchange rate.

If this is a lifestyle purchase – and you will benefit from using it lots, and keeping all your things there and being able to go at the drop of a hat. Do it.

IF you need to rent it out to help cover costs, forget about it. Just rent somewhere yourself for a few weeks a year.

I know it’s not the case now, but at some point properties in resorts must have been a good investment – they must have gotten so bloody expensive somehow!

Holiday homes are hardly ever a good investment.

That’s a strong statement. There are plenty of reasons why a holiday home makes an excellent investment- especially when compared to buy to let returns.

I don’t see how à holiday home is going to be a better investment than a BTL. Not difficult to yield 4% net out of BTL in the UK. Good luck getting that in France and with very little capital growth and with massive Forex exposure. And with impôts locaux.

colp – lovely looking spot and you’ve done a lovely job with the place.
Out of interest where do you fly from and to? Innsbruck or Munich?
And how much cost/how long do transfers take?

Although we drive to Morzine in the summer (its handy having wheels and if we’re out for 8 weeks time we’re in no rush, also its lower CO2 than flying 230Kg CO2 e/w for 4x = 60Kg CO2 e/w pp driving, vs 100Kg CO2 e/w pp flying) we fly and transfer in winter.

We can fly from Brizz to Geneva in the morning on a £25 flight, and following a 1.5hr transfer be at the flat for lunchtime. Transfers can be as little as €16 for scheduled services to €40 for transfer mini bus. To the front door for <£40 one way in 5hrs.

Whilst an “up and coming resort” might make more sense for the capital, you also want somewhere easy to get to to make use of it painless. Also with your own place, you’re not bound by weekend changeover dates and flight price spikes, we pick cheap flights at odd times of the day and week because we can roll up on a wednesday night at 9pm.

In winter, if we are going for a week, we can go Liverpool/Salzburg or Manchester/Salzburg, and it’s 1 hr drive to the apartment.
Plan B is Munich which takes 2hr 15mins usually.

If we go for 2 weeks or more I’ll usually drive as in summer I’ll generally have around 6 bikes and a couple of enduro (moto) to take.

So we usually do 2 weeks at Xmas, 1 week Feb half term, 2 weeks Easter, 1 week May/June, 6 weeks Summer and 1 week October. Even with all that we usually get 10 weeks of rental which equates so around 7% of our original investment.
We’ve got friends who live there and take care of the cleaning, handover etc so we just have to tidy up and put our clothes away when we leave.

It’s been a brilliant thing to do as a family, my lad has loads of mates there to ride Leogang with, we’ve got great friends there. Just waiting for him to finish his education then we’ll probably spend 6 months there per year.

Just to add on the btl v holiday home debate, a rental investment you never really get access to if it’s a good one. I bought thinking I would have a month void each tenant changeover, to enjoy a leisurely paint and a bit of a holiday. In 15 years of ownership it has been empty for 10 days and that was due to painting.

A holiday let though you are more in control of, I just do about 10 weeks max pa to cover costs and make a bit of money. That leaves the rest of the year to enjoy it.

Tbh the people I know who bought to make money with a shed load of debt have lost loads, it’s a miserable existence chasing every enquiry and taking anything that comes along. Best to be in a position to be v selective who comes.

Thanks a lot everyone, some good info to digest.

It wouldn’t be just for our use, would definitely want to rent it out as we like to go to other places too and for the same reason wouldn’t fill it up with skis/boards & Bikes as they’d be going to the other places too.

Our annual leave has to be booked 6+ months in advance so that would probably help with deciding when to rent it out before it becomes last minute. And we try to avoid school holidays, which would hopefully be the easy times to get someone in it. In my head we’d pop out for the odd short break ( we work 6 on 4 off), but they’re probably the times you wouldn’t get to use it.

We’re in Maria Alm

http://www.apartmentamade.com/

That’s lovely 🙂 We’d be looking for something a lot smaller and not so nice!

How are you going to rent it out in practice? Who will do the change overs, collect money, organise cleaning, inspect for damage etc.
You can use an agent for everything I suppose but are there any and how much will they take?

There is a chap at work that has a place in Austria. Not one of the big well known resorts but big resorts are close by and has half decent skiing on the doorstep…just not a well known resort with the holiday companies and brits. He loves it but as it earns good rental money they struggle to use it a lot like they thought they would. They’ll pay the mortgage off in a few years and he says he’ll use it more then as they won’t miss losing the income, especially in the peak holiday seasons just when the rental income is the highest, but basically uses it for a week in summer an a week in winter the rest of the time it’s earning money to pay off the mortgage.

Another work colleague pays into one of these time share schemes which seems a better thing to me if you want variety. So you pay an upfront amount and a monthly amount and for what you pay you get access to a global network of properties…so if you want to use if for winter holidays you can, or summer holidays, whatever tickles your fancy. It works off a points system so the amount you pay into the scheme purchase you credits so if you want to stay in a really posh gaff it costs more credits, if you’re happy to ‘slum’ it in a more modest property it doesn’t cost many credits., And of course you can always choose to purchase more credits or reduce at any time. Your investment into the scheme also can be sold, so is an asset and since there are a limited number of people that can be on the scheme at any given time the value of your ‘share’ appreciates in value as it’s always oversubscribed. It just seems to me a much better way of getting access to a whole variety of properties rather than investing in a single property that you’re then chained to. But ultimately depends on what your ultimate goal and intention is.