Hi all,

long time since I’ve posted on here!

I am currently looking to get work done in our victorian terrace. we want to open up the dining room into the hall, so it’s open plan, and move the kitchen into the dining room – so essentially an open plan kitchen, with no barrier between kitchen and stairs.

building regs do not like this! currently we have two options:
sprinkler system in kitchen, first quote 4.5k, but we’re trying to refine this down.
or accessible windows in all rooms upstairs (1st and attic second floor), full fire doors (no issue there) and fully connected fire / smoke alarm system in all bedrooms upstairs. i imagine this will be more than 4.5k.

other than leaving the dining room wall in, does anyone know of any other options? I’ve seen other houses with this done, and they don’t have this level of protection…

I’ve seen other houses with this done, and they don’t have this level of protection…

Seen the result or know that its been done recently? Rules change and retrospective compliance is not neccessary, so there are lots of houses out there that woulnt pass modern rules, mine included, for the same reason.

done in the last 10 years or so. appreciate things may have moved on since then.
it just seems so OTT. obviously i don’t want us all to die in a fire, and also appreciate the stairs are our only exit from the house, but surely a good smoke alarm system in the kitchen would give us a lot of prior warning of a fire.

and fully connected fire / smoke alarm system in all bedrooms upstairs. i imagine this will be more than 4.5k.

You can now do this relatively cheaply with units with bluetooth and long life batteries. IIRC I put 4 plus a base station in a flat for a few hundred. Heat detector in the kitchen, combined smoke and heat for the rest

fireangel maybe?

Edit – you do not want a smoke detector in the kitchen – you need a heat detector and smoke detectors elsewhere. the kitchen is not your only potential fire source

The common way people get what they want is to build it to regs get sign off then remove the bits they don’t want

That doesn’t make it right but it would go a way to explain why you see people with what you want with seemingly no issues

Also teej if your gonna part quote ….perhaps the accessable windows part is his issue. They ain’t cheap. I have just been quoted 6k for 6 accessable window units for my upstairs. About twice the cost of any of my much larger downstairs windows.

But not having interlinked smoke alarms as a minimum irrespective of the relevent regs is daft these days such a cheap thing that may save your life.

sometimes you can just change the hinges on teh windows and not have entirely new windows.. (depending on teh windows of course…) it is what we did.

the window people didnt tell us this, of course.

Better safe than sorry.

Any house should have mains connected fire alarms these days. Its the first thing I did each time I’ve moved in the last 12 years.

They are easy to fit to lighting circuits. Easy to link with 4 core wire on each storey and wireless between storeys if theres no way down.

I’d go escape windows, alarms and fire doors. You don’t want to be cleaning up the sprinkler after a false alarm. Doubt you’d be anywhere near £4.5k.

https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Fire_and_Smoke/Kidde_Wireless/index.html

trailrat – sorry I thought the 4.5 K referred to the cost of fire alarms – the old style mains wired interlinked ones could come to this by the time you make good every ceiling and wall that has been dug out for cabling

wzzz

Nowadays you get the long life battery interlinked ones – much cheaper / easier than mains wired and meets regs

Are you in England/Wales, or Scotland? Building Regs are different.

I suspect the reason you’re being expected to do more than you’ve seen elsewhere is because you have a second floor. That changes fire regulations for the whole building, I think.

thanks all, really useful comments. we already have a mains smoke alarm system, on two landings, from when the previous owners did the attic. i was thinking the cost will be the windows more than anything.

sometimes you can just change the hinges on teh windows and not have entirely new windows

not sure that will work on ours, the top half opens, the bottom half can’t open, maybe i can just turn them upside down 🙂

No idea on building regs but out house is open plan all of downstairs, having no barrier between kitchen and anything else is a bit crap IMO, the whole house stinks if cooking fish etc. Smoke alarms go off all the time and washing machine noise.

I’d personally have some way of closing off the kitchen maybe with fancy room dividing walls or something

I’ve never actually been in an open plan house and thought. “Mmm this is pleasant”

I’ve been in plenty that look ace but jesus being able to shut a door can be a life saver on occasion.

Building regs only apply in this area (no barrier between a fire source and the stairs) if the house is more than 2 stories high (ground floor plus first floor), I know this because I had a structural engineer out yesterday. I’m looking to do a similar thing and if I do remove the walls in the hall then I can’t later do a loft conversion without walling off the stairs again.

There are a couple of things you could also do like some kind of curtain that drops in an emergency or a sprinkler system but building regs don’t really like them and they cost plus need annual maintenance etc.

To me its not an issue as i’ve space to reroute the stairs in the offchance I do a loft conversion – the smells coming from cooking bother me more which is why we are going  for a Bora hob – someone has to pay for Sagans new bike!

Have you looked at the Puck Mist System instead of a full blown system?

Also as above Heat detector in Kitchen and Smoke in other areas.

Can you get away with a suitably rated glazed downstand between the kitchen & other area?

Re. The smells, we’ve got an open fireplace, the cooker is going in there, with a suitable extractor going up the chimney.

DirkPitt, we’re looking at Cristal doors, but I’m thinking we don’t take the wall out now. It all just seems like an insane extra cost.

I also suggested boarding out the stairs today, it didn’t go down well 😉

Have you considered enclosing the staircase with fire resisting martials all openings on to the staircase to be of the appropriate standard i.e selfclosing and fire resisting. linked smoke detection mains powered with battery back up in all rooms including the staircase. Emergency lighting if natural light is insufficient.

Sprinklers are very efficient and effective in fire situations, especially in a three storey house. Because you have a second floor with sleeping accommodation, this require further requirements of Building Regs Document B.

Thanks all, really useful.

I think we’re decided the cost / impact of passing building regs is too great. So back to the drawing board.

Possibly putting double doors into the dining room, so we could have openplanish but also option to close up as well.

Also remeasured Howdens plans tonight. Drawers that won’t open fully before they hit the island 🤬🤬🤬

Also remeasured Howdens plans tonight. Drawers that won’t open fully before they hit the island 🤬🤬🤬

Regardless of the drawer issue. That sounds bloody horrendous to cook in.

Islands only work in massive kitchens. I’ve seen them fitted to a few new builds where they ‘just’ fit and they just scream “grasping aspirational middle class”

Islands only work in massive kitchens. I’ve seen them fitted to a few new builds where they ‘just’ fit and they just scream “grasping aspirational middle class”

Agreed. Howdens were determined that I needed an island for mine- it’s not big…..surprise surprise that would have needed more units and more worktop……

you need at least 1.2 m between an island and the rest of the worktops to create a usable space IMO.

yeah agreed. I think the issue is when the wall was out it was a big space, now with the wall in, the island they suggested is just too big, as we want it inline with the original hearth (where the cooker is going) so that just makes it very tight. we’re back there on saturday, I’m going to call their bluff re. the gap, see if they’ve considered it / know what it is.

Islands only work in massive kitchens

to be fair we’re in a Victorian house, the dining room isn’t anything like new build small…

long life battery interlinked ones – much cheaper / easier than mains wired and meets regs

What are the batteries used? Requirement was definitely for mains powered (though radio interlink is fine) a few years ago. I looped them off the lighting circuit in my own house when we had this requirement without doing any damage to the ceilings that wasn’t hidden by the alarms themselves.

Me.and teej live in Scotland

The regs in Scotland state only that they must be interlinked. No mains power requirement. How ever battery only must be tamper proof long life lithium’s

What Trailrrat said. The development of these is recent – only generally available for a few years. they meet the highest standards for fire alarms. They have superseded the mains power requirement. I would bet these would be allowable in England now

the batteries have a 5 yr guarantee and a 10 year expected life IIRC. You can also get a base station to make turning it off and testing easier

the batteries have a 5 yr guarantee and a 10 year expected life IIRC. You can also get a base station to make turning it off and testing easier

*Personally* I’d think it a bad idea to allow them as would bet in many homes they’d end up not getting replaced. (however, I’m trying to remember what the recommended life of the mains powered ones is – it may well be that they’re meant to be replaced after a decade anyway)

Mains powered ones usually 10 years.

Less chance of those being replaced imo.

Least with battery powered ones when it gets low it chirps 24/7

b33k34

No they are really good. Much less obtrusive than mains wired. cheap to replace (ish). Much more ;likely to be fitted because they are cheap and simple to fit

I had no requirement to fit them ( or so many) in my rental flat But I did anyway as I want it to the highest standards.

Mains powered ones usually 10 years.
Less chance of those being replaced imo.

Of course – thinking about it, they have a battery back up on the mains ones which will fail over the same period or less.

For our house as I was building from scratch I fitted a small fire panel and ran 12v sensors which worked out cheaper overall and the sensors are much more discreet, and ahve a single 12v lead acid back up battery at the panel. I don’t think theres any need to replace them – I’m guessing you just test them (I’ve got a can of aerosol smoke) annually until they stop working.

just fitted a mixture of these in my house and son’s house. Hard wired and battery detectors https://www.aico.co.uk/series/3000-series/ the battery ones are linked with the smart link fitted into the detector.

No connectivity issues at all with the non hard wired ones

it may well be that they’re meant to be replaced after a decade anyway

Yes, most are only certified for 10 years. If they use Americium to ionise the air between the detector plates, which is disrupted by smoke, after 10 years the Americium has decayed by nearly 5%, so the possibility of false alarm increases.