BTR Pinner or Cotic Rocket?

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  • BTR Pinner or Cotic Rocket?
  • eulach
    Member

    Steel… Yes
    British…Yes
    Full Suspension…Yes
    Delivery tomorrow..sorry, there’s a queue.
    Chinese carbon, anyone? Codine?

    thepodge
    Member

    The Pinner is crazy expensive, unproven and not doing too well on kickstarter

    v666ern
    Member

    But, it may be available in the near future… 😆

    looks like cy may be bringing a 29er rocket out ‘soon’ as they’re running them in the enduro’s

    On the plus side they are very good customers services and regularly do demo’s so try one out

    thepodge
    Member

    The dmr bolt is also steel and British and full suspension but bb pivot so less popular

    tang
    Member

    Swarf curve ftw!

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    Having just ridden the Cotic Rocket, I would say it’s well sorted, available soonish and fun.

    They are really nice chaps too who I would be happy to support.

    Considering the made-in-britain aspect, I also think it’s good value.

    If it had been 27.5, I would have probably placed my order already. Not that I actually want 27.5, I’m just a little worried that bits might be hard to find in a couple of years. I’m already seeing new rims being launched in 275/29 only.
    I’m going to ride a couple more 29ers to see if that’s a direction I’d like to go in. I’m in no rush.
    I intend to keep my next bike 5 years or more.

    Premier Icon GHill
    Subscriber

    I had a bounce around on a Rocket last weekend. It was too small for me, but I’m definitely wanting a demo when something appropriate is available. The suspension felt very taut, I think I’ll either love it or hate it.

    The looks of the Pinner aren’t for me, and I’m wary of Kickstarter bikes as there’s no demo.

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    tang – Member

    Swarf curve ftw!
    They also look great – I’d love a ride on one. Shame they’re down south.

    Considering the made-in-britain aspect I also think it’s good value

    Wow , this is a USP? 2.5k for a frame puts you in Santa Cruz carbon territory

    thepodge
    Member

    I love the swarf, are they actually available or still prototypes at the moment?

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    catschroedinger – Member
    Wow , this is a USP? 2.5k for a frame puts you in Santa Cruz carbon territory

    Eh – it’s half that price for the Rocket!
    (well £1350)

    Eh – it’s half that price for the Rocket!

    The guy at Swarf mentioned 2500 quid a frame at the LBS ,

    The BTR kickstarter mentions 2500 quid a frame

    Honestly I thought the Rocket was closer to 1800 quid not 1350 which makes it the bargain (if you can call it that) of the bunch

    thepodge
    Member

    2500 is a heck of a lot for a frame when you can get a Canyon or YT full bike for similar

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    catschroedinger – Member
    Honestly I thought the Rocket was closer to 1800 quid not 1350 which makes it the bargain (if you can call it that) of the bunch

    Agreed – if Cy and Mike can make this production stick and maintain current prices (including that price from an lbs), they’ve done a fantastic job.
    Cheaper than Transition/Banshee/Cove/etc that all make their bikes in Taiwan.

    Transition/Banshee/Cove/

    Just google shopping and those frames all seem to be 1600-1800 rrp quid, I’m amazed people pay that for an aluminium Taiwan frame when you can buy an entire Taiwan Giant for similar

    Premier Icon the-muffin-man
    Subscriber

    Was the BTR designed in the 1990s!?

    amedias
    Member

    The dmr bolt is also steel and British and full suspension but bb pivot so less popular

    And also surprisingly good actually, deserves more credit than it gets I think, are they actually built in the UK though?

    The Pinner is crazy expensive, unproven and not doing too well on kickstarter

    It’s only been going a couple of days on Kickstarter, and the KS is to get funding to build a batch, and to get some key parts machined in batch to keep the cost down, they’ll still build anything you want on a one-off basis.

    Expensive yes, but then so is the Swarf, and any custom geometry, handbuilt frame is going to be, the Rocket isn’t cheap, and is more mass produced without the option of custom tweaks so it’s a bit like comparing Apples and Oranges there.

    Member
    Swarf curve ftw!

    They also look great – I’d love a ride on one. Shame they’re down south.

    Ditto, really like the Swarf and have been following closely, really really want to have a go on one too to see what it actually rides like.

    The Swarf and BTR have both had a number of protoypes built and ridden, in some cases by customers, not just the builders, and to be fair, all new frames are ‘unproven’ in that respect until out with the public in significant numbers.

    Depends what you’re after I guess, but if you’re looking for a bespoke frame from a UK builder who you can actually go and talk to, discuss options, make your own tweaks and end up with a totally bespoke bike then that’s a little different* from buying and off the peg frame, in any material!

    One of the nice things about all these options so far is that they’ve all got their own character and reflect the builder/designer, whether or not any of them are your cup of tea is another matter but they are all quite unique in look and feel even if the end goals are similar.

    *different, not better, not worse, just different.

    thepodge
    Member

    They all go through various middle men and have import duty etc added. Less people taking their cut the better it is for cotic

    Edit. They as in big us brands

    I don’t think you can tweak anything on a rocket can you?

    The dmr isn’t UK built as far as I know

    nodrog2
    Member

    Just join the queue and order a Rocket. Have been loving mine for the last 18 months 🙂

    mickmcd
    Member

    I don’t think you can tweak anything on a rocket can you?

    dont think theres a single part of the thing that hasn’t been tweaked

    Premier Icon nickc
    Subscriber

    2500 is a heck of a lot for a frame when you can get a Canyon or YT full bike for similar

    while clearly, obviously you can…You can’t 😆

    They’re not the same market are they, the likes of YT are such good value, but the BTR you’ll know the bloke that made the frame, and for a lot of folk that does count for something.

    ajantom
    Member

    The dmr isn’t UK built as far as I know

    No, but it’s a hell of a bike – and only £899 for the frame and shock (actually £719 currently on a certain bike website).

    Just join the queue and order a Rocket. Have been loving mine for the last 18 months

    I think a few people on here have been waiting 18 months for theirs :S

    can someone explain to me why steel is a good material for a full sus frame?
    Ok steels real for that nice 853 hard tail but why use such weighty material when ally is so much lighter and will be just as stiff if well designed.
    To charge / pay 2.5k for a steel frame seems daft, even if you did have a chat with the nice chap that welded it up!
    What do they weigh??

    Premier Icon colournoise
    Subscriber

    The answer to’why steel?’ is in here somewhere IIRC.

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_mmqajR0Ko[/video]

    Or in this series of lecture videos.

    [video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxuT8W9cmPs[/video]

    Im thinking if it was worth doing Brant would have knocked them out in container loads by now……….. 😀

    + the rest of the MTB industry.

    My UK built full sus frame was a fraction of the price of that BTR thing. It is made from recycled filing cabinets though.

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Subscriber

    I must admit I’ve always had rather the opposite view and can’t really understand why aluminium is such a popular material for a mountain bike. Any bike that gets regularly chucked down mountains is going to flex and since aluminium doesn’t have a fatigue limit, that means that sooner or later it will crack.

    thepodge
    Member

    Mike, I meant that customers cannot tweak the frame at ordering as someone had suggested above

    Sunn had steel dh frames and won everything for years.

    cfinnimore
    Member

    Just get a rocket. One of the funnest things I’ve ridden.

    brant
    Member

    I must admit I’ve always had rather the opposite view and can’t really understand why aluminium is such a popular material for a mountain bike. Any bike that gets regularly chucked down mountains is going to flex and since aluminium doesn’t have a fatigue limit, that means that sooner or later it will crack.

    This fatigue limit thing is often mentioned. I discussed it with Keith Bontrager many many years ago. Steel, if stressed only lightly, indeed can have no fatigue limit, but to make a bicycle see stresses that low you would have to use incredibly thick tubes, and even then, welds, or rather, the heat affected zone near the welds, would still be a weak point.

    Steel bicycle frames, of the sort we are discussing, don’t have a fatigue limit.

    Premier Icon AlexSimon
    Subscriber

    I’m confused Brant – was one of those ‘steels’ in your post meant to be ‘aluminium’?

    Premier Icon roverpig
    Subscriber

    I thought the fatigue limit for steel was quite high and I’m surprised that even a light steel bicycle tube experiences enough deflection to exceed that limit. But I could be wrong and anyway it is rather academic because, as you say, we’re really talking about frames rather than tubes and they tend to crack at the joints. It makes me wonder why we don’t see lugged frames any more.

    Macavity
    Member

    “can someone explain to me why steel is a good material for a full sus frame?
    Ok steels real for that nice 853 hard tail but why use such weighty material when ally is so much lighter and will be just as stiff if well designed.”

    With so many factors to consider,more than just the density of steel v’s aluminium, the simple answer is no.
    It is far from easy to explain why steel frames can be lighter than some equivalent aluminium frame designs.

    http://www.ktm.com/za/enduro/125-exc/highlights.html#.U6Al5dpOW1s
    “Contrary to the trend for aluminium frames from other manufacturers, we supply the KTM 125 EXC 2015 with a high-tech steel frame. Not only is it more stable, but also at least 0.5 kg lighter than the competition’s frames. In MY 2015 the frame colour shines in the same orange as the KTM factory team, making the styling even more attractive. Thanks to the frame design and in conjunction with the rear PDS damping system, shocks at the rear wheel are absorbed and dissipated optimally.”

    http://blog.ktm.com/klaus-hirsekorn-alex-baumgaertel-kalex-engineering/
    What are the differences between the Kalex aluminium frame and the KTM steel tube frame?
    “It´s a different philosophy, but both methods could lead to success as KTM has proven in Moto3 and Kalex in Moto2. So everybody acquires knowledge in one´s field of activity. Aluminium allows more design flexibility while milling. You can vary in wall thickness and processes. It is relatively easy to specifically remove or add material according to the requirements. Finally the overall weight is the same. At the same strength aluminium needs to be scaled stronger than steel. Therefore with steel you can save space, but aluminium offers greater freedom in design, therefore I prefer aluminium.”

    http://reynoldstechnology.biz/assets/pdf/rtl_2010_moto_tech.pdf

    sbibby1988
    Member

    Im starting to think a cotic rocket is a myth. We’ve been waiting sooooooo long!

    amedias
    Member

    I’ve seen one in the wild they do exist! they’re just not breeding very successfully at the moment

    hora
    Member

    If I was buying new it’d need a demo first full stop.

    The only exception is something like YT Capra where you kinda have a good gut-feel that its going to be at least.. rideable maybe even fantastic.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    Mike wrote:

    If I was buying new it’d need a demo first full stop.
    The only exception is something like YT Capra where you kinda have a good gut-feel that its going to be at least.. rideable maybe even fantastic.

    do you ever read what you write?

    hora
    Member

    Do you understand the concept of the line ‘the only exception’? Back to your bridge.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    If I was buying new it’d need a demo first full stop.

    which utterly contradicts this statement, made one line before.

    amedias
    Member

    The only exception is something like

    ‘only’ implies singular
    ‘something like’ implies there are many equivalent options

    So it not only contradicts the statement made one line before it, it also contradicts itself in the same sentence.

    So better written as:

    If I was buying new it’d need a demo first.

    Except if I really like the look of it and have a funny feeling in my tummy

    hora
    Member

    Jesus wept.

    amedias
    Member

    It’s before 10am on hump day, we’re allowed to be pedantic 😀

    hora
    Member

    Right, I’m going to have my second coffee.

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