Viewing 40 posts - 81 through 120 (of 656 total)
  • British IS female wants to come back to UK…
  • athgray
    Free Member

    Thousands of German, Italian and other POWs settled in the UK after WW2. They were allowed to stay, to bring their families, to contribute to our society and they weren’t even British to begin with.

    It’s a good point scotroutes but I am not sure what you are trying to say with it.

    Are you saying that Syria could and should have the morals to let her remain there, or that if we are prepared to let foreign born fighters stay in the UK after a devastating war that we should have no problems readmitting one of our own?

    It’s not a dig just looking for clarification.

    PJay
    Free Member

    Or she could well be suffering from a combination of brainwashing and trauma. That’s the sort of thing that could take years to unravel.

    Perfectly true (in which case she needs a chance); but by no means guaranteed. I’ve been getting fed up with BBC News recently and have been watching a fair bit of France 24 on Freesat; they’ve given a lot of coverage to refugee camps holding large numbers of jihadi brides from across the world (so we’re hardly unique). Most of the women they’ve interview have had an atrocious time, know that they’ve been had and are desperate to return home; however some report that IS have instructed them to return to their home countries to strengthen and re-group prior to a “re-launch” of IS.

    It’s all a huge mess and something that’s going to be really hard to unpick; I suspect that this case may be one of many.

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    If people really want to deal with the issues of radicalisation and the terrorism that logically emanates – why not tackle the elephant in the room that the British government not only insists is not there but also is adamant is not an elephant – Saudi Arabia.

    More danger is represented from the radical interpretation that emanates from that nation. Strangely we don’t mind this – perhaps as we make huge amounts from arms sales to them…?

    fasthaggis
    Full Member

    I am sure with a bit of crowd funding ,there could be a Valentines day weekender in Amsterdam sorted out for her and the Dutch partner. He could show her round,meet the inlaws ,etc.

    dirkpitt74
    Full Member

    Thousands of German, Italian and other POWs settled in the UK after WW2. They were allowed to stay, to bring their families, to contribute to our society and they weren’t even British to begin with.

    But how many of those were willing fighters and how many were conscripted?
    I think there is a huge difference between being told to fight for your country regardless of your beliefs or face the consequences and choosing to fight to impose your beliefs on the rest of the world.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Are you saying that Syria could and should have the morals to let her remain there, or that if we are prepared to let foreign born fighters stay in the UK after a devastating war that we should have no problems readmitting one of our own?

    Both – but primarily the latter.

    But how many of those were willing fighters and how many were conscripted?

    We didn’t ask.

    uselesshippy
    Free Member

    I would genuinely rather give a home to the people of Syria, that her and her mates, raped and tortured. She doesn’t seem repentant in the slightest, and we’d be better off giving new life’s to the people of Syria who actually want to live here.

    athgray
    Free Member

    I don’t think anyone with links to ISIS or whatever should be allowed back.
    If you bugger off to join a terrorist organisation it should be treated as treason.
    Turn her over to the Americans and let her rot in Gitmo, or send out some SAS hit squads and just get rid.
    No guarantee she could be de-radicallised.

    She was a child at the time. She made the decision to leave when as a society we feel she does not have the mental capacity to legally
    Choose to leave school
    Choose to drive a car
    Vote in elections
    Have a child
    Choose to smoke or buy a drink in a pub
    Join the armed forces and die for your country.

    There are loads more. People believe she made a reasoned decision to enter a war zone however she is 3 years too young to purchase a copy of Medal of Honor and do the same on an XBox 360.

    As a child she seems to have witnessed things we could not believe. Desperately surviving in a refugee camp, heads in a bin, no contact with family, three teenage pregnancies and the deaths of two infant children. One of her best friends blown up, and an admission of shame at what her other friend will think of her wish to come home. She doesn’t sound remorseful enough??? How best to find out the whole story of what she really thinks and got her into this position, I wonder??

    Better than a short transcript from a BBC interview, we could get a wealth of meaningful information if she returned home. Far more useful to fighting radicalisation than intelligence extracted from wooden splints under fingernails, an ear hacked off and a slug to the back of the skull.

    Scotroutes. I agree with both, and agree that the latter is more likely. I think it would require a huge mentality shift in a country to allow opposing fighters to remain in a country so destroyed by a war. Although destruction took place in the UK during WW2 it did not see the bulk of the fighting. Having Italian POW’s remain in rural Orkney after WW2 is hard to equate with the Syrian situation just now.

    rene59
    Free Member

    Exactly what ransos said. You enjoying being on the right wing side?

    The thing is if the left wing has gone that far that my attitude towards this person is considered right wing then there isn’t much of a choice to be made is there?

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    She was a child at the time. She made the decision to leave when as a society we feel she does have the mental capacity to legally
    Choose to leave school
    Choose to drive a car
    Vote in elections
    Have a child
    Choose to smoke or buy a drink in a pub
    Join the armed forces and die for your country.

    I assume you mean ‘didn’t’?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Going back to 2011 the BBC was full of anti-Bashar propaganda and the “rebel” cause was presented as just.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13175677

    In 2012 the members of Bashar’s regime were being presented as monsters by the BBC.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-13216195

    I would argue that the BBC was very much a part of the anti-Bashar propaganda that softened up (the word “groomed” was used above) young members of the Muslim community and made them soft targets for recruiters. The same was going on in other countries, junior’s Muslim classmates were getting a similar message from both French mainstream news and the Jihad recruiters.

    Anyhow, at some point the West realised that if Bashar fell then Israel was in all sorts of shit and swapped sides. The message was ambiguous for a while before coming down firmly in favour of propping up the regime at the point the RAF and other western states started launching attacks on IS. At that point those who had gone to join the rebels became enemies of the West.

    There are about 150 IS French nationals in Kurdish prison camps. I hope they can get back to France for trial if they have committted crimes and then go through rehabilitaion programmes.

    p.s the extent to which some posters on this thread have conformed to their misogynistic/extreme right/xenophobic profiles shows it’s not just IS propaganda that is poisoning minds.

    If you want to insult me victims of propaganda then I’ll give you an appropriate tag “humanist”

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    I fully accept this woman is our moral and legal responsibility and most likely the UK will have to take this family on. However some of the sympathy for them in this thread is misplaced:

    – She was over the age of criminal responsibility. If she chucked a gay person of a building in the UK she’d be facing a *long* prison sentence, and nobody would be excusing it with talk of her naivety and brainwashing.

    – She volunteered for ISIS and employed a fair big of cunning in getting there. I’m sure there are countless people in ISIS who were coerced into becoming fighters or being sex workers/brides for them. Possibly over 50pc. (I doubt you say no to ISIS recruiters when they turn up in your town.) She wasn’t one of them. In WW2 terms she’s a hardcore Nazi, a volunteer who wanted to be involved, she’s not some poor Russian POW given the choice between starving or being a concentration camp guard, or a conscript who ends up in an Einsatzgruppen. She’s SS not Wehrmacht.

    – Britain really isn’t for her. We’re so far out of kilter with her world view she took a massive risk to escape to the life she wanted. Coming back to the UK isn’t a treat for her, she wants to come here just that literally nowhere else will take her for the obvious reasons.

    – The kid’s gonna start in a UK primary school in 4 years from this September. I wouldn’t want my kids mixing with someone who has that kind of worldview, and I wouldn’t want to be rubbing shoulders with it’s parents at School events. Is there *anyone* who feel different to that? The kid might turn out to be a Niklas Frank or might turn out to be a Gudrun Burwitz. We don’t know.

    – She grew up in a western liberal democracy with the internet and a totally free media. If there was brainwashing it was the brainwashing she chose. It would be better to describe it as confirmation bias. Frankly I doubt she was brainwashed. She heard the BBC’s version and she heard ISIS version and she just preferred ISIS’s take on the world. Coming from a western liberal democracy she’s one of the least brainwashed people in ISIS – most of the local fighters will have been brought up with these views.

    athgray
    Free Member

    The thing is if the left wing has gone that far that my attitude towards this person is considered right wing

    Above I have at length said why your view is right wing, not by using a left wing opinion but one that is sensible and measured.

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    She was a child at the time

    She’s not a child now though, and she’s still unrepentant.

    Joe
    Full Member

    She’s not British. She has nothing to do with this country. She grew up here, but if you raised a panda bear in the arctic it still wouldn’t make it a polar bear.

    She once had a British passport of convenience, but she can go back to Pakistan or Bangladesh.

    athgray
    Free Member

    Tomhoward, got spot, yes I meant not.

    tp biker, that’s the first sentence of my post and clearly as far as you got.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    She grew up in a western liberal democracy with the internet and a totally free media. If there was brainwashing it was the brainwashing she chose

    Brexit has taught you nothing?

    andybrad
    Full Member

    without reading all the other replies my thoughts are she should not be allowed back. She shows no remorse.

    I fully understand that she was a young girl that was brainwashed and still is. If she was to come back she would have to be imprisoned and her baby taken into care.

    jamj1974
    Full Member

    She’s not British. She has nothing to do with this country. She grew up here, but if you raised a panda bear in the arctic it still wouldn’t make it a polar bear.

    She once had a British passport of convenience, but she can go back to Pakistan or Bangladesh.

    Wow! Just wow!

    ransos
    Free Member

    The thing is if the left wing has gone that far that my attitude towards this person is considered right wing then there isn’t much of a choice to be made is there?

    Views of what constitute the far left are relative to the position of the observer.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Anyway, what I don’t get is why people are expecting her to be remorseful.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    The thing is if the left wing has gone that far that my attitude towards this person is considered right wing then there isn’t much of a choice to be made is there?

    I don’t think left and right are very useful labels but it has to be said that people who regard themselves as “left” are a bit hard right at the moment. If you say “trans women are men” you’re villified but if you throw a gay person of a building then welcome to the UK. They won’t share a stage with people who have said things that if you squint a bit and interpret in an extreme way are a bit fascist but willing share a stage with people who are literally actual fascists.

    It reminds me that the hard left in the UK were effectively on Germany’s side in WW2 and opposed to fighting against Germany until years into the war because of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact. So far to the left they were hard extreme right! (The Morning Star had to be banned because of it until after Germany invaded Russia!)

    I’m no fan of Trump but there were demonstrations to stop him coming to the UK for a few days. In contrast someone who is violently opposed to democracy, in favour of slavery and kills gay people is a *good* person to be here permanently?

    Yes, this woman is probably our problem morally and legally but people who are pleased about it need to take a long hard look at themselves.

    Edukator
    Free Member

    Reading that, Joe, where did you get it from? What has made you reason that way, because it’s every bit as dangerous as the IS propaganda that was circulating in junior’s secondary school but a lot less based in fact.

    ransos
    Free Member

    Yes, this woman is probably our problem morally and legally but people who are pleased about it need to take a long hard look at themselves.

    Who’s pleased about it?

    mickmcd
    Free Member

    Was she indoctrinated, brainwashed into joining up?

    csb
    Free Member

    By saying she is “not the same silly schoolgirl who ran away 4 years ago” she really isn’t helping her case is she.

    In accepting that she is now a hardened radicalized adult who shows no remorse I’m not sure who she is trying to appeal to.

    She’s only coming back because the war has been lost, not because she’s seen the error of her ways.

    tpbiker
    Free Member

    She wasn’t one of them. In WW2 terms she’s a hardcore Nazi

    I think this is a pretty good analogy.

    And let’s be honest here, would the left be so keen to take the moral high ground if this was an 18 year old white bloke with a swastika on his arm who had left britain to join a Nazi state, a state who’s sole aim was to wipe out anyone who didn’t adhere to their racial ideology.

    Imagine the same bloke wanted to return, still spouting his Nazi views..

    Because this is pretty much exactly the situation here, albeit with an 18 year old Muslim girl.

    tomhoward
    Full Member

    She once had a British passport of convenience, but she can go back to Pakistan or Bangladesh.

    She had a passport because she was born here same as me and, I assume, you. Can you go back to somewhere you may never have been to?

    Can I be sent back to Pakistan or Bangladesh?

    ransos
    Free Member

    And let’s be honest here, would the left be so keen to take the moral high ground if this was an 18 year old white bloke with a swastika on his arm who had left britain to join a Nazi state, a state who’s sole aim was to wipe out anyone who didn’t adhere to their racial ideology.

    Why don’t you spell out what you’re trying to say, instead of insinuating it?

    Edukator
    Free Member

    That’s eactly what happened with a lot of real Nazis, tpbiker and many spent a long time in jail, some the rest of their lives.

    torsoinalake
    Free Member

    And let’s be honest here, would the left be so keen to take the moral high ground if this was an 18 year old white bloke with a swastika on his arm who had left britain to join a Nazi state, a state who’s sole aim was to wipe out anyone who didn’t adhere to their racial ideology.

    What if instead of convincing her to get on a plane her groomers kept her in a flat in the UK with a supply of drugs and a queue of punters out the door? Plastic Nazi Yaxley-Lennon would be outside the courtroom live streaming as a “public service” as we speak.

    Joe
    Full Member

    Actually the more I think about this, the more I can’t believe what others have written here. It actually makes me want to laugh or maybe cry.

    She is totally unrepentant. She wants to come to the UK as a last resort, because she knows she will get free healthcare and other benefits for her little isis rugrat. She hates people like me and their families, their beliefs and my culture.

    When there are so many problems in the UK, why on earth would the British government spend one pound of tax payers money on bringing her home. What good is it going to do us?

    I also wonder if I was born in Pakistan, to British parents whether everyone would consider me a Pakistani or whether I would still be considered an outsider and British (… and as would my children and my grand children)?

    athgray
    Free Member

    I think this is a pretty good analogy.

    And let’s be honest here, would the left be so keen to take the moral high ground if this was an 18 year old white bloke with a swastika on his arm who had left britain to join a Nazi state, a state who’s sole aim was to wipe out anyone who didn’t adhere to their racial ideology.

    Imagine the same bloke wanted to return, still spouting his Nazi views..

    Because this is pretty much exactly the situation here, albeit with an 18 year old Muslim girl.

    It’s actually quite a crap analogy but I will run with it. Yes, he should come back here. Remember he would also have been a child at the time. Do we know she is spouting IS ideology?

    Joe, what you have written deserves no credence given to it whatsoever. I read it once, will not soil my mind to do so again and will not comment on it any further. Others should do the same.

    Joe
    Full Member

    …and British citizenship isn’t based on a birth right. Being born on British soil doesn’t make you a citizen, unlike the United States.

    ransos
    Free Member

    She is totally unrepentant

    Why does that matter?

    eddiebaby
    Free Member

    18 year old white bloke with a swastika on his arm who had left britain to join a Nazi state

    Yay. GODWIN! Where’s my prize?

    downshep
    Full Member

    The child has done nothing wrong and is to be born to a British subject. Perhaps repatriation with a view to the child being placed with the extended family or in care and the mother standing trial would be a workable compromise. That’s of course if dad doesn’t want to keep the child there or move to the Netherlands.

    outofbreath
    Free Member

    Yay. GODWIN! Where’s my prize?

    Is it really Godwin to discus Nazis, in a thread about a facist?

    oikeith
    Full Member

    Do we know she is spouting IS ideology?

    If she wasn’t how would she have survived 4 years with them? Its not like its been 4 days or 4 weeks and shes realised their ideology is wrong, its been 4 years! She now only wants to come back because the fight is lost and she is heavily pregnant, but dont forget the two children she already lost didn’t die due to childbirth issues, the article says one was nearly 1 and the other nearly 2.

    mickmcd
    Free Member

    the child being placed with the extended family or in care

    Awaits protracted court case of human rights violation and any other thing the mother could come up with for a payout.

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