British IS female wants to come back to UK…

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  • British IS female wants to come back to UK…
  • So using logic – what we do know is that she is a British Citizen, therefore she should come home to face justice in our courts of law.

    Why not? As I and others have multiple times in this thread she’s a UK citizen as is her son and she’s only ever lived here so legally and morally we have to take her back. (As primary carer for her UK citizen son she still has a right to come to the UK, even if you argue she is no longer a citizen.)

    Should she be put on trial? For being a member of a proscribed organization? I’m less sure. Is it in the public interest? It’s of no use as a deterant – Isis volunteers don’t expect to live, they certainly don’t GAF about prison. Putting her in prison will give her a captive audience for her views. If there’s good evidence she has done something worse which will carry a *very* long sentence then by all means yes. She was allegedly in the Umm Hamza brigade who really were nasty, if so she should definitely be tried if evidence can be found of more significant crimes. ….but if that were true maybe Syria would want to try her.

    I’m willing to be convinced on the prison aspect.

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    So if not prison what is the answer?

    So if not prison what is the answer?

    I guess whatever has been done with 400 other UK ISIS members who have returned to the UK will be done with her. Council flat, I *guess*, except uniquely she’ll be able to sell a ghost written best seller about her time in Isis so she might be able to support herself.

    The UK will perhaps have to answer that in five years anyway: As far as we know the only offence she’s committed in the UK is Membership of a Proscribed Organization assuming she meets the criteria. IIRC max sentence for that is 10 years, so out in 5. We can’t keep her in prison forever for that.

    What’s your answer?

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    I don’t know – I do believe she should come home.
    I believe she should be tried for any crimes. I also believe that in cases like this rehabilitation is the answer.
    So I guess work to de-radicalise her, & work for her to become a productive member of society & raise a hopefully healthy baby.

    I do fear for her safety should she come home given the huge amount of publicity she has had.

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    So if not prison what is the answer?

    Let her return to her family (if they are willing) who can support her, and then give her whatever support she needs from social services to rebuild her life, whilst at the same time keeping a very close eye on who she associates with just in case she is the terrorist mastermind that some idiots think she is. Given the interviews she’s done, she’s either very good at playing a bit dumb and naive, or she really is just a confused, gullible girl who has made some silly mistakes under the influence of some very nasty people.

    I also believe that in cases like this rehabilitation is the answer.
    So I guess work to de-radicalise her, & work for her to become a productive member of society & raise a hopefully healthy baby.

    The Richard Walton, who was Head Of Scotland Yard Counter Terrorism at the time this Isis Volunteer joined up was on Moral Maze Last night. He said there are “very few cases” where deradicalization works with Isis Volunteers. (18 minutes in: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002mlm.)

    Makes sense, I wouldn’t change my most deeply held principles just because someone paid for by the government told me to.

    silly mistakes

    Interesting way to describe joining a genocidal death cult and (probably) the Umm Hamza brigade.

    Silly man, he accidentally joined an Einsatzgruppen, oh well, never mind, can’t be helped.

    PrinceJohn
    Member

    The Richard Walton, who was Head Of Scotland Yard Counter Terrorism at the time this Isis Volunteer joined up was on Moral Maze Last night. He said there are “very few cases” where deradicalization works with Isis Volunteers. (18 minutes in: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0002mlm.)

    Makes sense, I wouldn’t change my most deeply held principles just because someone paid for by the government told me to.

    That does indeed.

    However, it would be interesting to know how they go about it. Are the people they’re de-radicalising in prison?
    Are they trying to integrate them into society as a whole?
    Are they coming across as the enemy or as a friend?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Interesting way to describe joining a genocidal death cult

    I’m sure they made that clear when she filled in the application form. Given the average 15 year old in the UK barely knows who the prime minister is, I’m sure she was totally clued up on the inner workings and political leanings of a secretive terrorist organisation thousands of miles away.

    It must be a peculiarly grim existence for you seeing the absolute worst in everything and everyone.

    However, it would be interesting to know how they go about it.

    Agree. …and when I start to imagine how it might be done it really does feel like an impossible task. Like the religious threads on here. How many people change their minds?

    silly mistakes

    Interesting way to describe joining a genocidal death cult

    It must be a peculiarly grim existence for you seeing the absolute worst in everything and everyone.

    Well I try to keep a positive outlook but I tip my hat to your description of the horror of Isis as a “silly mistakes”. You really are a cup half full kind of guy!

    Someone like Majiid Nawaz might be able to get through to her though, as someone who got banged up in Egypt for joining an Islamist group.

    Nawaz has been a positive influence in the UK, if he had been booted out we would have lost a valuable weapon in the fight against extremists.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maajid_Nawaz

    tpbiker
    Member

    I’m sure they made that clear when she filled in the application form. Given the average 15 year old in the UK barely knows who the prime minister is, I’m sure she was totally clued up on the inner workings and political leanings of a secretive terrorist organisation thousands of miles away.

    Are you actually suggesting she didn’t know what IS were all about before she joined???!! Reports of their brutality were all over the press every single day, hardly a day went by without the beheading of some poor journalist.

    She even admitted seeing the beheading videos before she left. She may be exceptionally thick and gullible but not a chance did she not know what IS were all about. And what’s more, it seems like (other than them getting defeated and losing all their territory) the experience pretty much aligned to her expectations.

    Do you think it’s right that we pawned the problem off on Bangladesh, TPbiker?

    Premier Icon dazh
    Subscriber

    Well I try to keep a positive outlook but I tip my hat to your description of the horror of Isis as a “silly mistakes”.

    And where did I say that? Obviously trying to have a little bit of empathy with a teenager who was clearly abused makes me a pro-beheading IS sympathiser. I’ll add that to supposedly being a far right sympathiser on the Brexit thread. At least I’m covering all bases 🙂

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    However, it would be interesting to know how they go about it.

    Deradicalisation

    Obviously trying to have a little bit of empathy with a teenager who was clearly abused

    As has already been asked, where is the evidence for this?

    rmacattack
    Member

    Times have fairly changed, there was a time corbyn was called a terrorist sympathizer, for standing up for everyday residents in N.I. Now people are actually sympathizing for a terrorist.

    No they aren’t. There’s a difference between shirking responsibility and sympathising.

    Punish her in a court of law or come to a political asylum agreement with a more suitable country.

    tpbiker
    Member

    Do you think it’s right that we pawned the problem off on Bangladesh, TPbiker?

    Nope, I am not sorry she’s not coming back but I don’t agree with just pawning her off on someone else. Imagine the uproar if Bangladesh had got in there first and revoked her supposed citizenship first..

    As I mentioned already on this thread, if legally we need to take her back we should, and we should put her on trial if she’s broken the law.

    My issue isn’t with folk saying she should come back, if that’s the law then all good. I do take issue with folks trying to make out she didn’t know what she was getting herself into when she went however.

    To many folks trying to make excuses for her. It’s typical stw that on a ‘my bikes been stolen’ thread the acceptable reaction is ‘string up the junky scumbags’, yet when it comes to joining Isis it’s put down to ‘a silly mistake, she’s the victim, She was only 15 etc etc’.

    cheekyboy
    Member

    A total non story, total waste of hot air, an exercise in mutual silliness, its not even funny, its sad.

    Radicalisation……………….my horse !

    aweeshoe
    Member

    I don’t get all the fuss over one young bride and a baby when over 400 ISIS fighters are estimated to have returned to the UK already and nobody bats an eye. If we didn’t break international law for fighters why are we for a bride and a new born?

    I don’t get all the fuss over one young bride and a baby when over 400 ISIS fighters are estimated to have returned to the UK already and nobody bats an eye.

    It was a big story when she volunteered for Isis. The media regard her as photogenic, liable to generate clicks. She did an interview. That got it in the media. Without publicity there’s no fuss.

    The UK *is* trying to avoid taking Alexanda Kotey & El Shafee Elsheikh back.

    We can read about their ‘silly mistakes’ here:
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/aug/12/isis-beatles-face-to-face-syria-elsheikh-kotey

    aweeshoe
    Member

    That’s 4 men out of over 400 who have already returned and there was no mention of revoking their citizenship, just having them tried in America (presumably so they can receive the death penalty).
    I remember when the girls left, young and stupid just like many more young men before and after them. It still doesn’t explain or justify our treatment of this young woman and baby, especially when we’ve already allowed so many fighters to return home and most of whom will have committed absolute atrocities. So her crime is being pretty, young, naive and subservient?

    dirk_pumpa
    Member

    She needs a good sleep and then an intensive 3 week de-radicalisation course.

    She’ll be right as rain.. reverting to normality after seeing heads rolling about the gaff will be no problemo 👌

    All she was doin over there was washing underpants and cooking dinner!!

    aweeshoe
    Member

    So that’s worse than actually cutting the heads off?
    Here was me thinking that she sounds like STW’s perfect woman, knows her way round the kitchen and bedroom and isn’t afraid to lick your wounds

    That’s 4 men out of over 400 who have already returned and there was no mention of revoking their citizenship, just having them tried in America (presumably so they can receive the death penalty).
    I remember when the girls left, young and stupid just like many more young men before and after them. It still doesn’t explain or justify our treatment of this young woman and baby, especially when we’ve already allowed so many fighters to return home and most of whom will have committed absolute atrocities. So her crime is being pretty, young, naive and subservient?

    Errr, two, I think, and they have had their citizenship revoked. Although, as we know, that may not have any real meaning.

    As for the rest, you asked the question, I just answered, don’t shoot the messenger.

    mickmcd
    Member

    a mother of a now sick child won’t let him return to the UK without her, I’m pretty sure if she had that child’s best interest at heart she would be following on later

    aweeshoe
    Member

    Or, it could be that she’s so terrified of losing her third child that she doesn’t want to spend a moment apart from him. If he’s allowed into the UK without her she might never see him again, whether he survives or not. No parent should be forced to make that choice and no child should have to suffer for it. She couldn’t win either way, if she allows him to go she’d be slagged off too. I can imagine what the commentators will say “What kind of mum gives up her kid?”
    I’m not suggesting that she gets a million pound mansion and £26k in benefits, I think she should face trial if she’s committed any crime just like you or I would expect. If we let our British values and our legal system slip for people we don’t agree with, how are we going to get on our moral high horse?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    Well said aweeshoe

    kerley
    Member

    Now people are actually sympathizing for a terrorist.

    Objective and applying fair law rather than sympathizing. As with the other 400 that nobody seem to protest about.

    As for the terrorist part, what terrorist acts has she done?

    mickmcd
    Member

    Or, it could be that she’s so terrified

    That’s how terrorism works she’s just found out obviously… Or maybe self preservation is her top priority , what’s that called again….oh human shield

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    a mother of a now sick child won’t let him return to the UK without her, I’m pretty sure if she had that child’s best interest at heart she would be following on later

    Playing devil’s advocate for a moment,

    Given that our response to this has been to (potentially illegally) revoke her citizenship, and she’s presumably not overly sympathetic to the UK by dint of her leaving in the first place, if you were her would you trust that if you were to surrender your baby to the UK you’d ever see him again? Not sure as I would.

    Premier Icon bikebouy
    Subscriber

    Is she back yet, and has she taken someones job?

    Thats all that matters to some innit.

    Premier Icon bails
    Subscriber

    Bails –
    This isn’t about defending the woman in question, it’s about whether the UK government should follow international laws. And it’s hard to debate because it often turns into “Oh, you love terrorists do you? Well why don’t you go to Syria to join them eh?!”.

    Now people are actually sympathizing for a terrorist.

    johnx2
    Member

    so what? Law’s the law.

    she’s presumably not overly sympathetic to the UK by dint of her leaving in the first place, if you were her would you trust that if you were to surrender your baby to the UK you’d ever see him again? Not sure as I would.

    Agree. Even fascists love their children and I’m sure she will do her best for the lad. It’s just her world view might dictate a very different idea of what ‘best’ for him is. If he dies in the camp maybe she thinks that will make him a martyr and get him a ticket to paradise which she might regard as far better than being brought up by infidels. We don’t know how she perceives this and if she had the same idea of what is ‘best’ as western liberals like us she wouldn’t be there at all.

    …and this all assumes “won’t let him return to the UK without her” is true. I haven’t seen it reported anywhere.

    rmacattack
    Member

    As for the terrorist part, what terrorist acts has she done?

    Is this really a question? She became a terrorist as soon as she left to join isis in syria. Come on guys, take the libtard free the world glasses off and stop defending this cretin.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    Come on guys, take the libtard free the world glasses off and stop defending this cretin

    With this level of debate is hard not to be won over !

    rmacattack
    Member

    This is just not one of them issues you virtue signal on for internet points.

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