You do realise that whilst worsley was doing Flutey’s tackling for him against Roberts that Martyn Williams had a field day at the breakdown and was the major reason why England kept getting players sent to the sin bin and lost dont you?

Yeh but I dont think Worsley is particuarly effective at the breakdown anyway. He is a good tackler but other than that pretty slow and ponderous with ball in hand. But I suspect that they will try and out muscle the Bok’s

Worsley totally outplayed the Welsh back row in Cardiff IMO.

No doubt Worsley is there in an attempt to match the brute force but we need a turn over / breakdown player.

If Williams can recapture some form then the backrow balance will be right. Just a pity we may need to wait a week for Phillips to take several steps and pass the ball

From my fairly limited knowledge it seems that the squad is aimed around limiting their losses against S.A, is that a fair comment? All the talk of the management about ‘combinations’ seems orientated more around protecting physical weaknesses of certain players than allowing attacking combinations. Granted you have to do that to a certain extent, but it seems the plan is to hold in there rather than take the game to S.A too much.

I guess it comes down to the players they have to choose from. I would love to see outstanding players comfortable in more traditional roles. Most of the comments here seem to sum it up, being along the lines of “yes so and so isn’t good but who is better”?

Phillips for example seems to be chosen for his more physical nature than a smaller but more technically gifted 9, but how much tackling would you realistically expect a scrum half to put in with a competent back row and centres etc? A Dawsonalike would be great 😉 I just have the nagging felling that the Lions will be defending weaknesses (or perceived weaknesses) more than playing to their strengths. Just the way it has come across so far…

-Armitage has done well to be fair but I don’t think he’d last 5 minutes against S.A.
-Halfpenny and Bowe seem like the most realistic wings to prosper but lack a bit of magic perhaps
-I am surprised about O’Gara. With all the talk of “form” he should be embarassed to be in as should Williams 🙂 He seems to need his hand holding quite a lot to get the best out of him (O’Gara that is).
-Jones has to look most likely to do well at 10 but a third option would have perhaps been wise with the number of games of the tour.
-Shanklin and Jenkins are the ideal players for this tour so it’s good to see them in
-Powell will struggle I think as most have already suggested
-Pleased to see Keith Earls in.
-I wish Doug Howlett was British or Irish 🙂 He just seems right for what S.A need, i.e. someone to be worried about keeping an eye on all the time.

…. Just my random musings to avoid afternoon work 🙂

I think that rather depends on the test team from the squad – the players are there to go for either taking them on for brute power or for outpacing them

I think the aim maybe to match them for muscle in the forwards but have fast backs to make space and move the ball round the park.

10 is the real issue for me but the 2 best eligible tens are there

Interesting to see that Ryan Jones and Gatland seem to be having a bit of a tiff at the mo too… I wonder what’s going on there

Worsley totally outplayed the Welsh back row in Cardiff IMO.

erm…. no, worsley is not and has never been good enough. He tackled Roberts out of the game but then left Williams to dominate the breakdown leading to so many pens against England and yellow cards

Think they should have taken Hook. Not sure switching between Jones & O’Gara offers us enough of a game plan changing option. I know he is not in the top form but I reckon he would have stepped up.

I think our backs could be awesome if the forwards can take the Bok’s on up front. I reckon we can in the front five, Euan Murray is the best tight head in the world IMO and POC is right up there in the 2nd row world rankings. Back row – I’ll reserve judgement

From my fairly limited knowledge it seems that the squad is aimed around limiting their losses against S.A, is that a fair comment?

It looks like an a team which is going to be based around attacking, not limiting losses and winning with kicks. As Taz says, if the forwards can match SA the backs could be awesome, plenty of attacking options.

Phillips is there for more than tackling – he offers a very real attacking option, keeping the opposition back row tied in, in theory.

I wish Doug Howlett was British or Irish He just seems right for what S.A need, i.e. someone to be worried about keeping an eye on all the time.

Shane, Bowe, Halfpenny, Byrne, Kearney, BOD, etc. I don’t think we need Howlett, as good a player as he is.

So who would you have in your starting 15 from that squad then?

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Jerry Flannery
3. Euan Murray
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O’Connel
6. David Wallace
7. Martyn Williams
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Harry Ellis
10. Stephen Jones
11. Tommy Bowe
12. Tom Shanklin
13. Brian O’Driscoll
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Lee Byrne

Prob a bit safe in the backs there I think – cant make up my mind on 12 or the wings!!

Backs look sound Robbo. Centres are probably the hardest to predict barring injury of course. I guess it is almost certain BOD will play in the test side judging by the comments of the management so far regarding leadership and so on but I’d love to see Flutey or Earls in there to spice up the running. I wouldn’t want to be without Shanklin though due to his sheer hard work. Tough for sure! Injury and form in the lead up will hopefully make it clearer 🙂

No idea about forwards 😉

Pretty close there Robbo I think

I would currently have Worsley in and Williams out (with Wallace on open side). I hope Williams steps up and proves me wrong as the tour develops

I would also have Shane Williams in.

Flutey would also be a close call vs Shanklin

I cant make up my mind on Flutey and I think Shanklin would be better in defense and more sound all round but not as exciting as Flutey

erm…. no, worsley is not and has never been good enough. He tackled Roberts out of the game but then left Williams to dominate the breakdown leading to so many pens against England and yellow cards

Do you really think that? I am a major fan of Martyn Williams but frankly he did not have a great 6 nations by his standards. Preventing turnovers is not a 1 man job. The English pack were not rucking cleanly enough. Worsley got man of the match that day and deservedly so. He did his job fantastically. If you had asked me a year ago if Worsley was a lions contender I would have said no way. He was picked on form though

Worsley was nowhere at the breakdown against Wales, he did the job he was asked to do, but it was an entirely negative tactic and left england with little chance of winning. Martyn Williams was fantastic agianst Toulouse at the weekend. As for the test team

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Jerry Flannery
3. Euan Murray
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. Paul O’Connel
6. David Wallace
7. Martyn Williams
8. Jamie Heaslip
9. Harry Ellis
10. Stephen Jones
11. Tommy Bowe
12. Tom Shanklin
13. Brian O’Driscoll
14. Leigh Halfpenny
15. Lee Byrne

Seems OK apart from Ellis who is crap (Phillips is getting better as the season goes on) and I’m not sure I’d play both Williams and Wallace in the back row, I’d swap Shanklin and O’Driscol round as Shanklin has hands like Abu Hamzar and I’d have Shane rather than 1/2p.

The two starting fifteens posted above lean heavily on a selection from a team that came fourth in the 6N

The two starting fifteens posted above lean heavily on a selection from a team that came fourth in the 6N

Will be the same as last time then wont it!!

In all seriousness though, I’d say injuries or loss of form aside Jenkins, Steven Jones and Lee Bryne are nailed on test starters from Wales rest open to debate.

The two starting fifteens posted above lean heavily on a selection from a team that came fourth in the 6N

That’s the nature of the 6N though isn’t it? You rely on other teams to win/lose in other games to maintain your own position. It doesn’t always give a realistic idea of the strengths of the teams involved. (In this cae for Wales it probably does.)

Of course, you could always point out that the squad leans heavily on an Irish team that have choked continually up until this year. There’s always another way of looking at it.

Idle Jon said is right. To suggest that England are better than Wales because Italy turned up without a scrum half, France put in their worst 1st half performance of the tournament and 1 good, game changing tackle against the Scots would be pretty naive :-).

Just read through the entire thread and biggest observation I’ve made is in particular anagallis_arvensis REALLY hates England!

Personally, don’t think McGeechan has done too bad a job with the selection, a few glaring errors (not taking Danny Care, choosing to take Phil Vickery, only 2 Fly Halfs neither of which are particularly inventive) but on the whole I’d say he’s done a pretty good job of choosing the “in form” players (no use being world’s best on your day, but it not being your day!), combined with some guaranteed experience and a few up and coming talented players.

The biggest problem as I see it though, is the lack of quality in Northern Hemisphere rugby right now, certainly when compared to say 2003 when England won the World Cup. Back in 2003 there were several “Best in the World” players in many positions across the home nations, now who could we say was the best in the world in their position? Out of the squad of 37, for me the only 2 players that come close to being “best in the world” are Brian O’Driscoll and Shane Williams, and as we all know Shane Williams has had a crap season, and Brian O’Driscoll is no stranger to an injury!

Regarding the comments about including a more inventive Fly Half, fair enough, but if you’re not even first choice for your country, then IMO there’s no way you should even be considered for going on the Lions tour. Henson has moment of brilliance, but the rest of the time he’s barely even average. Cipriani again, moments of brilliance (when he’s fit), but also distinctly average on his day too. Hook would be the 3rd choice to go for me as I think he adds another dimension, but by my own criteria (not first choice for his country) that rules him out really!

The Lions are going to have to work VERY hard to play together as a team to beat the Boks IMO. I’m not even sure that a team picked from the best players on the tour would even play better than sending the 6 Nations winning Irish team out instead quite frankly! If we had a handful of world class players then I’d be more optimistic, but we don’t, so I’m just going to have to hope they gel well and don’t try to play as a team of 15 individuals…

I’m surprised to see so many rugby experts coming out of the woodwork and quite a few informed opinions, there haven’t been many rugby threads on here.

Geech has made a few big omissions but I think that shows they have a good idea of how they are going to approach the whole tour. They seem to have learnt the lesson from the stupidly sized squad in NZ, and kept it smaller. I think they will start off with a Test and dirt tracker team, this gives the two teams valuable time to gel, and encourages the players to challenge for places. I think that is why Quinlan is in, perfect pack leader for the dirt trackers, big, aggressive, dirty.

Cips/Hook/Flood etc are all out because they have no form, and can’t be trusted to land their kicks. If there isn’t an in-form flair player why try and shoehorn one in? They have two experienced fly halfs who have both won Grand Slams and could land a penalty or drop goal under pressure. Neither of them have any gas but they both play in attacking back divisions and bring outside backs in nicely.

Everybody is building the Springboks up far too much. They might be world champs but they are arguably the most beatable Tri Nations side and have lost to plenty of NH teams over the last couple of years. They have plenty of talent but their coach is a flake. They will be fired up but so will the Lions. They have picked two senior Munster forwards because they want to go out there with that mindset, that you play for your team-mates and believe in yourself and anything can happen.

Whatever happens I am very hopeful that this is a return to the old Lions ethos, look at POC’s interview on the BBC website, you can see how much it means to the players. I can’t wait!!

Oh yeah, and you can’t play Williams and Wallace on both flanks, there is no balance. Ferris is likely to be the Test blindside because of the physical edge.

Oh yeah, and you can’t play Williams and Wallace on both flanks, there is no balance. Ferris is likely to be the Test blindside because of the physical edge.

So all Irish back row for you then?

Irish team that have choked continually

Very true until…

this year

Thanks for making my point for me, but of course, angellis and robbo probably realise I’m only ribbing them really.

look at POC’s interview on the BBC website, you can see how much it means to the players. I can’t wait!!

Me neither…I really think he’s grown in maturity as well as improving his all round game. His pre match talks for Munster are supposedly legendary.

Agree that Wallace & Williams don’t balance the back row. I personally woud opt for Worsley over Williams based on 6 nations form.

I disagree on Mboy’s thoughts about lack of world class players.

Byrne, BOD, Shane Williams, POC, Euan Murray, Jenkins, would all be up for serious discussion in a world 15 debate. Many others are top players if not necessarily the out and out best.
Back row & scrum half really bother me though. Pivotal and potentially weak areas

I would definitely go with Ferris and Wallace, I’m not so sure about Heaslip but he has pace which means he is much better on hard ground, and he has great hands.

Back row could go either way, we need somebody to stand out at 8 for it to be a success. Scrum half, I’m not so worried about. In contrast to what was said earlier they are all very different. Phillips is huge, he just takes too long to pass. Ellis has quick hands, pace, and plenty of niggle. TOL has a bit of everything, he is very underrated. Decent pass, can break, brilliant cover tackler, needs to boss the game more.

World class players, there are plenty. Everything is based on form these days. Anyway, talent is useless without the right attitude. Look at the horsing that Munster gave the star studded Ospreys recently.

mboy – danny care? Not that grewat a scrum half and a liability in terms of giving away penalties. Plenty of good scrum halves not going – Blair, Cussitor, stringer.

I really hope worsley does not make the test team – too slow by far. Yes he can tackle but you need to be able to do more than that

As for martin Williams – he was immense this season – stealing opposition ball and creating turnovers.

I personally woud opt for Worsley over Williams based on 6 nations form.

Crazy, Worsley has never been a 7 he’s a 6. To suggest that worsley is fit to lace Martyn Williams or Wallace’s boots as a 7 is bizare plus Ferris and Quinlan are better 6 and Wallace a better 6, 7 or even 8.

For the record I did not say Hook or Cirpriani should go but a player of that type (attack minded 10) would be a great help especially as there’s no real distributing 12 (Henson if fit and with form can do this, despite what naysayers think, he is a top class performer who lets not forget has played in all the games of Wales’ recent grand slams, who else has done that?). All of which makes me wonder why Flood wasnt picked or even Nicky Robinson from Cardiff. It leaves the squad with only two recognised first choice goal kickers (+ 1/2p who can kick well from distance). Its the real lack of options that worries me. Sir Clive made his choices about test team and dirt trackers before he went on tour, choosing his style of play before he arrived and look how that went. I dont expect McGeechan to make that mistake, espcially with a much smaller squad.

Harry Ellis also cannot do anything that Phillips cant do better, and that includes start a fight on their own in a phone box.

oh and shane willism is a legend!!
click

as a final aside look at the try on about 2.39 to see how class Henson is but no the english naysayers are correct he’s just a perma tanned show pony who’s greedy!!

Powell is a tough bastard but got hammered by worseley, there’s no finer defensive back row out there.
I don’t know what Vick’s is doing there and would not put wynn-jones in before O Callaghan, Shaw or Hines.
Back row of Williams, Worseley and Heaslip sounds like it could be a handful though.
You’d be a brave man to exclude Sheridan considering what he can do to scrums.
Backs wise, anagallis_arvensis is not far off at all, perhaps Mike Phillips for Ellis and try Flutey for Shanklin (BOD and Flutey is a very exciting combo, you gotta admit). Mind you, Jones instead of O gara? On what planet?

I think Tom Croft could be reckoned to be the unluckiest player. He can cover 2 positions has good hands is prepared to do more than his share in defence and has blistering pace for such a big lump. His only faults I can see, he drifts when he should straighten in attack and he doesnt get back to his feet and work for the ball when he has made a tackle. I would drop Shaw and take Croft.

My controversial pick would have been fatty Easter I know he is too slow for a great 8 (you could time him with an egg timer over 50 yards) but for sheer short range grunt and hard dirty yards I think he is the man. I think he had a great 6N and wasnt outplayed by any 8 in the tournament. He doesnt go missing like he did before this season he kept up the workrate. I suppose his lack of pace lost him the place.

Powell is a tough bastard but got hammered by worseley

No he isnt he’s shit which is why he doesnt get in the cardiff team

Mind you, Jones instead of O gara? On what planet?

So you think O’Gara is better than Jones? Righto, neither are great but at least one of them can tackle and doesnt have the habit of going completely AWOL on occasion.

Jones can tackle? when did he learn that? But still better than hook.
Granted, O Gara is not great in defence but he’s often the difference on the scoreboard and has infinitely better vision.
Shame Johnnys not good anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_leading_Rugby_union_Test_point_scorers

Crazy, Worsley has never been a 7 he’s a 6. To suggest that worsley is fit to lace Martyn Williams or Wallace’s boots as a 7 is bizare plus Ferris and Quinlan are better 6 and Wallace a better 6, 7 or even 8.

I was not suggesting Worsley for open side. I would have Wallace there and Worsely at blindside.

McGeechan will not make the same mistakes as Sir Clive. Let’s face it. Sir Clive was in the right place right time for 2003. He had an awesome team at his disposal with some of the all time greats.

Sir Clive made his choices about test team and dirt trackers before he went on tour, choosing his style of play before he arrived

Whatever his choices were he didn’t give anybody else much of an idea. Brought 3 teams worth of players, tried to “save” people for the tests leading to stupid squad rotation, played people out of position, had an outdated gameplan that didn’t suit the players involved, lets face it, Woodward was totally out of his depth.

You’re worrying too much about the style of play. Passing twelves are all the rage and Henson is a big loss, but its not the only way to play the game. ROG and Jones are both very good distributors, a lot of the time the backs line out differently anyway, for set moves, scrums in the middle of the park, broken play etc. You have to consider the defensive aspects as well, the Saffas have big strong centres and the hits in the backs will be massive. Maybe we have a defensive weakness at 10, but you can cover a single player much easier than 2 side by side.

Ellis is much snappier at the base of the ruck than Phillips, he serves up quick ball.

Whatever his choices were he didn’t give anybody else much of an idea. Brought 3 teams worth of players, tried to “save” people for the tests leading to stupid squad rotation, played people out of position, had an outdated gameplan that didn’t suit the players involved, lets face it, Woodward was totally out of his depth.

Absolutely

Ellis is much snappier at the base of the ruck than Phillips, he serves up quick ball.

Absolutely 🙂

Ellis is much snappier at the base of the ruck than Phillips, he serves up quick ball.

Absolutely

Not sure I agree, what I would say though is that I was mystified at how Phillips was picked ahead of Peel for Wales all season when Peel provided much more zip when coming off the bench. Stringer for all his faults seemed to get the Irish moving much better than O’Leary too.

If Worsley starts in the tests ahead of Ferris/Wallace/Williams when they are uninjured then I’m supporting SA 😳

If Worsley starts in the tests ahead of Ferris/Wallace/Williams when they are uninjured then I’m supporting SA

Lunatic.

Don’t forget that we are looking at 22 players – the bench has to be considered, and that’s where players like Powell etc will shine if used correctly.

The debate about the defensive weakness at 10 is interesting since SA don’t have world class players at 10 themselves at present. As someone above said, they look very beatable at the moment and have spent all season playing the full ELVs so may struggle going back to full penalties, etc. But they always have THE BEAST!!

Jones can tackle? when did he learn that?

He learnt that a few years back – his defence is normally not a problem. Its the invisible fridge on his back that’s the problem.

Shame Johnnys not good anymore.

Jeeeeez, move on…. if the English are puzzled about why the Welsh like Henson, we are equally puzzled about the Wilkinson love-in. This was one of the things that undermined the last Lions tour wasn’t it? Apart from SCW, that politician he took with him, the decision to risk the players in pointless money spinning games against the Pumas, the selection policy, etc, etc, etc.

Look at the horsing that Munster gave the star studded Ospreys recently.

Thanks, Shandy. I really wanted a reminder of that. Just glad I didn’t go out there to watch it.

anagallis, where are you based?