Not all members of the E.U. Use the Euro.

Interesting reading Dougies “journey” I wonder where the ardent Leavers Jambalaya and the other one are now.

Short version? The sooner we get to a global Star Trek type scenario the better.

If you step away from current notions of ‘nation’, ‘bloc’, continent or whatever you start to come to the conclusion that with the world population what it is and projected to be vs finite resources, closer cooperation is the only logical answer.

That is if you have the greater good in mind.

What we have seen prior to about 2008 is a gradual, kicking and screaming, pulling of ‘nations’ towards that kind of thinking. Unfortunately we started to fall at the first hurdle. 2008 kicked off a movement towards insularity that has taken root in many places, that has led to more national-level chest thumping and more wasted years. And still the infinite growth vs finite resources time bomb ticks down.

I just wish, oh so very much, that our little national tantrum had been expressed in a way that wasn’t irreversible. As I have said many times, even Cletus and Billy Bob down there in Alabama expressed their tantrum in a way that can be, comparatively, easily reversed. And yet, we still laugh at the US with Trump in charge….

Sign me up for Star Trek style federation too. Some of the ‘anti-globalist’ messaging has a pretty sinister undertone to it IMO. No coincidence that George Soros is a favoured target.

Does this mean we are Klingons here in Blighty?

Or as Barnier et al now probably think of us ‘cling-ons’ or ‘tagnuts’ or ‘clinkers’.

I just wish, oh so very much, that our little national tantrum had been expressed in a way that wasn’t irreversible.

Very much this. Which is why it is depressing that, when it mattered most (too late now), so much energy went into persuading the voters of the UK that we had to Leave because of that referendum… that to reconsider doing so… or even to have a say in how we do so… was “undemocratic”. The big push wasn’t about how Brexit would improve our lives… but all about how it had to happen, to preserve democracy. I fear that we will never recover from the additional damage that reframing of what “democracy” is has done, in addition to the damage of Brexit itself.

Democracy means never saying sorry.

Never allow the public to cool off.

I fear that we will never recover from the additional damage that reframing of what “democracy” is has done, in addition to the damage of Brexit itself.

That is another excellent angle I hadn’t considered much, the US tantrum was expressed through their normal democratic process and in a way that was reversible. Sure, their democracy is also taking hits as Trump goes rogue and uses all means possible as do those that block him. But I get the feeling that the sensible Americans actually just view Trump as a blip.

We held an opinion poll that somehow became binding and then bent ‘our’ notion of democracy to make it fit. And the results are not reversible. Either in direct terms or collateral damage. Yay us.

I can’t help but feel that the US will go back to some sort of sense at the end of this year and we are going to be left looking even more ridiculous.

Fair play Dougie. A bit late, sadly, but better late than never.

reluctantlondoner wrote:

I’m baffled by nationalism and patriotism, truly. And I think a post nationality world enabled by technology would a) be a good thing and b) is almost within our grasp

dd replied:

Reluctant- I understand your view on Nationalism, I thank that was part of my thinking, why be part of a small club when in reality we want to be part of the bigger all world club and as you say technology allows for that.

My jaw on the floor. He voted effectively for English Nationalists/English Nationalism – supporting a campaign that was begun by English Nationalists who are fiercely isolationist and have the political rhetoric of the 1930s to not only promote Nationalism in the UK but to begin tearing apart the fabric of the EU

(which was put in place to protect Europe from the well-known horrors of Nationalism that brought us World Wars, eugenics/‘scientific‘ racism, miserable poverty, murderous hatred and distrust of neighbours (in all senses) and industrial-scale genocide.)

70 years after WW2 and somehow nearly half of the UK (but mostly England) seems to have forgotten everything except for the jingoism and ‘Dunkirk Spirit’ – the meaning of which somehow has mutatedd into ‘Remaining drunk while shooting self and neighbour in foot’

Never forget:

In April, the Leave.EU director of communications and chief strategist, Andy Wigmore, told an academic researching for a book on Trump’s electoral victory, that the Nazi propaganda machine “was very clever, the way they managed to do what they did.”

Wigmore then added:

“In its pure marketing sense, you can see the logic of what [the Nazis] were saying, why they were saying it, and how they presented things, and the imagery.

“And looking at that now, in hindsight, having been on the sharp end of this campaign, you think: crikey, this is not new, and it’s just … using the tools that you have at the time.”

Turkeys not only voting for Christmas, but voting for the only brand of politics to have recently used ovens while pointing over the Channel at the ‘enemy’.

Dressing English Nationalism and Brexit up as some kind of wider, ever-inclusive globalism is surely beyond the palest pale of piss-taking/face-kicking?

By painting the Jews EU as the nebulous enemy, all ills can be attributed to them and people can vote for the Nazis under the delusion that they are just voting against whatever nebulous ill they happen to be fixated on at that time.

Brexiters weren’t voting for anything, they were voting against something, for all sorts of incoherent and mutually inconsistent reasons.

Brexiters weren’t voting for anything, they were voting against something, for all sorts of incoherent and mutually inconsistent reasons.

Which is why none of the ****ers can come up with anything remotely sensible moving forwards. What an utter, epic fail the whole thing is.

I think the one thing all Brexiteers were voting against is what we used to call ‘progress’.

I fear that we will never recover from the additional damage that reframing of what “democracy” is has done

I’ve said several times now, this could all have been avoided if we’d invested in 17 million dictionaries.

Right… back on the “conspiracy or cock up” point… it isn’t one or the other… there clearly are people who believed all the “quick and easy” “less bureaucracy” “Brexit dividend” fallacies as they spread them… here’s “Dover?” Raab back in 2016 when he seemed to honestly be expecting that leaving the EU would decrease the bureaucratic load for businesses and the civil service…

This is staggering. In 2016, Dominic Raab was "jarred" and "bemused" by the idea that leaving the customs union could increase the burden of bureaucracy, despite @SimonFraser00's clear explanations. (h/t @RocketRacer69) (1/2) pic.twitter.com/bDmg81h79y

— Property Spotter (@PropertySpot) July 26, 2018

…this doesn’t preclude others who pushed for Brexit understanding this stuff, and, either not caring, or considering it a price worth (others) paying for the chance to use their “emerging economy” skills to make money out of the, er, “changes” to our country, currency and regulations resulting from all this.

Raab is another bluff, crass tit. It is only that he has dunderheads like Johnson, Grayling, Hancock et al all around him that gives him the ability to look ‘businesslike’ because he can glare at people ‘scarily’ while a vein pulses in his forehead.

That’s Brexit for you, though. If you select your top team based on their loyalty to a project that is inherently stupid, you end up with stupid people and opportunists in the top jobs.

Russian hackers stole US-UK trade talk papers from email account of Liam Fox – report https://t.co/RSLsA1jfbx

— SkyNews (@SkyNews) August 3, 2020

More Brexiteer logic:

If this year has taught us anything it’s that what we should be doing at the moment is jeopardising our supply of essential medical supplies

The government has published a letter to medicine suppliers, asking them to build up six weeks’ worth of stock on UK soil, in case of disruption when the country leaves the EU's Single Market and Customs Union at the end of the year, reports @theothebald

— Chris Mason (@ChrisMasonBBC) August 3, 2020

Wow, did a STW political thread actually cause someone to rethink? Amazing.

Why would a superstate be bad?

Good question. We are used to 5hinking of the US as a very patriotic and in fact single place but it is a super state, a union of smaller states. The original idea was closer to that of the current EU, however due to the civil war AIUI it became more of a state. And they don’t seem to mind, do they? Likewise Germans?

I’ve not considered the American people to be patriotic any more than we might consider ourselves so. They feel it necessary their kids swear allegiance to the flag every morning at school, they have at least one State with a pretty healthy independence movement ( California ).
Germany I don’t know – not a question I’ve thought to ask Germans I’ve known, but I might do now. Guess you might get a different answer from different age groups, and those who’ve grown up either side of the wall.
Why some people are hell bent on separating themselves from people they’ve an awful lot in common with living on their doorstep is a bit beyond me tbh. In the case of some Americans I can only imagine it’s a matter of range… 😉
I’m in favour of increased unification fwiw.

I’ve not considered the American people to be patriotic any more than we might consider ourselves so.

You’re having a laugh, aren’t you?

This is entirely normal and you see it everywhere:

They are insanely patriotic, to the point of obsession half the time.

California might have a quarter of people in favour of secession, however a large number of the rest are singing the national anthem at baseball games with their hand on their heart and tears in their eyes. It goes way deeper (not necessarily more extreme) than you can probably imagine.

I just look at that picture and wonder how many flags are up because they believe in it and how many are there because they’ll get talked about if they don’t. I’d struggle to name a more diverse country so also struggle with the idea that they all think the same thing. Anyway I’m reluctant to be too drawn in to this in case I end up trying to go through customs again 😀

Theres going to be a lot of this over the coming years, fortunately Twitter keeps the receipts

Iain has always been on top of the detail: https://t.co/MCy4Rbl9pA pic.twitter.com/oWS84QyDNX

— Baghwallah (@baghwallah) August 3, 2020

This is what happens when you don’t read the small print and sign a document written by a man like Boris Johnson.

But because the Brexiteers are all so bright, none of that is Boris’s fault, obviously. Its all the EU’s dastardly work, for some reason.

Nice of them to take the time to see how Britain could become even less trusted in all those future trade deals it now needs to negotiate…

By reneging on the one it just signed?

That should do it! Genius!

Thank God you had the presence of mind and benefit of thorough research and understanding that led you not to vote for the Withdrawal Agreement…

Oh. pic.twitter.com/RUZwEHa0kd

— Cromwell (@Cromwell606) August 3, 2020

Iain Duncan Smith relies on one thing and one thing alone.

That enough of the electorate are disengaged and/or thick enough not to realise he doesn’t have the first clue about anything at all. Sadly, it seems to be a safe assumption.

He really is special.

Wow I’m blocked by IDS!

Chris Grey focused on this in his blog the other week.

Its amazing really, our economy is going to die the death of a thousand cuts thanks to all the red tape coming down the pipe, and all the mediocrities that crapped on and on about how amazing this will be are still pissing their pants over how unfair it all is.

Good luck all the SMEs out there:
https://ec.europa.eu/info/european-union-and-united-kingdom-forging-new-partnership/future-partnership/getting-ready-end-transition-period_en

^^^

We’re ****ed.

And every little cut will be blamed on someone else.

Idiots.

I just wish there was some way to ‘reward’ the people who voted for this specifically with their ‘Brexit Dividend’.

Then I would be happy to let them sink their own little ships whilst waving mini union jacks around.

Johnson still high on the polls

The real brexit dividend is his alone, no matter how badly he mishandles the Covid crisis, no matter how the job losses, red tape & loss of freedoms thanks to brexit dump on us ….

To half the country he’s the hero that ‘got brexit done’ 🙄

When you realise you didn’t turn the oven on

— Dave Mee (@davemee) August 4, 2020

James O’Brien highlights the hypocrisy and utter ineptitude of Iain Duncan Smith

Iain Duncan Smith in Nov 19: Sniggers at the idea of spending more time scrutinising the Withdrawal Agreement.

Iain Duncan Smith in Aug 20: Complains about a clause "buried in the fine print, unnoticed by many"@mrjamesob | #IDS pic.twitter.com/w2j9uC37IB

— LBC (@LBC) August 5, 2020

A reminder that doors are shutting for financial services…

https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-finance-analysis-idUKKCN25223M

The Telegraph have just realised that leaving the EU will mean no more EHIC. Who could ever have predicted such a thing?! Other than all the fear-mongering Remoaners who said this 4 years ago of course.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/comment/ehic-card-loss-brexit-older-travellers/

Hmm… emphasis on the old bastards that voted for this… what about all the young families having their holiday costs pushed up against their will? And, personally speaking, who’s going to pay for my diabetic teenage son’s inflated insurance costs so we can briefly escape to the continent for a few weeks next year… (realistically, he’s never studying or living there as a young man now).

Don’t read the comments…

Susan Kennedy 9 Aug 2020 4:16PM
The EHIC card is a con*. A work colleague had her irish mother stay with her for 3 months 10 years ago and she got registered for a GP and then got a EHIC card. She’s been getting free medical back home in Ireland for the last 10 years and she has complex medical needs; diabetes and hypertension and doesnt pay for her prescriptions. Makes my blood boil

Someone’s blood is boiling because someone else is being well treated? In Ireland?

* this phrase is repeated in many of the comments. That’s “free thinkers” for you.

I have been pointing out the EHIC/Health insurance implications to my frequent travelling Brexit voting parents for years.

Worth the cost, presumably?

A work colleague had her irish mother stay with her for 3 months 10 years ago and she got registered for a GP and then got a EHIC card

I’m going to say this is just bs, plain and simple. You have to have a NI number to get an EHIC. Either she was entitled to one as an NI paying UK citizen in which case why is anyone complaining, or she wasn’t, and it’s just total bollocks.
Still, brexie gonna brexie

Yeah, it’s just a lie, and yet even though they’ve made up their entire post, it’s still not even that good an argument.

I really just don’t understand the mentality. It’s like you and your next door neighbour both being given fifty quid gratis and your response is to complain about the freeloading bastard at number 7.

You’d have to be either thick or evil to deliberately give up a benefit for no other reason than to see someone else lose it as well.

I’m going to say this is just bs, plain and simple. You have to have a NI number to get an EHIC. Either she was entitled to one as an NI paying UK citizen in which case why is anyone complaining, or she wasn’t, and it’s just total bollocks.

Assuming she even exists, which I severely doubt, her “Irish mother” was probably from Northern Ireland.