Brexit 2020+

Do you really think he believes in brexit and believes he can make it work and that there is no case for rejoin?  all things he claims

SKS has never said he believes in Brexit – you’re putting words in his mouth.  What he said was “we need to rebuild trust with the EU and get a better deal for Britain”   Making Brexit work doesn’t mean in the same way as the Torys think or want.  As both you Edukator and everyone else has said at length, there’s no current case for rejoin.  You have to make it work, rebuild trust and THEN rejoin.

Exactly what SKS has said since July last year.

revisionism of the highest order.  I am not putting words in his mouth.  this is what he said

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754

Labour’s plan, he said, would focus on “unblocking” the government’s Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.

None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not do

anyway – its all going round adn round with entrenched positions.  agree to disagree

As with the climate thread TJ – I’ll leave you to your VERY entrenched mentality.  Have fun in there.

Daffy – just sometimes you could consider others viewpoints?  I know thats a bit rich coming from me but pot kettle black 🙂

revisionism of the highest order.  I am not putting words in his mouth.  this is what he said

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-62034754

Labour’s plan, he said, would focus on “unblocking” the government’s Brexit deal by removing barriers to trade with the EU and taking steps to resolve border issues in Northern Ireland.
None of which is possible without raproachment with the EU which he is stating he will not do

anyway – its all going round adn round with entrenched positions.  agree to disagree

That’s exactly what you want to hear from a politician trying to win votes, moving forwards instead of gazing at the problem for another few years, how the hell could anyone at Labour or any other party promise to rejoin the EU when they get in power and a) keep that promise and b) get a good deal if they do.

We left the EU, it’s in the past now, we are someway down the road to managing the effects, and have suffered the worst parts of it so far, to reverse course now would be more money, time and effort down the drain, especially if we’re telling the French, Spanish, Italians, etc that we’re desperate, we need time to make it more appealing to the EU for us to join so we don’t end up getting done over twice!

You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false?  OK.  He cannot acheive his stated aims without the raproachment he has ruled out

Brexit is not in the past.  the most damaging bit is yet to come

Brexit is in the past, we left 3.5 years ago, the most damaging bits were through the break up and negotiations, as well as renegotiating, what is on the horizon is unknown, unless you know more than most, of how world matters will effect us worse than the EU, just now we’re seeing the Ukraine conflict, Russian aggression elsewhere, wildfires decimating southern Europe and other issues, inflation being rampant due to these issues is going to cause issues for all.

Again, still trying to work out why such berating of Starmer for just stating if they get in power he’d fight for a better deal/relationship and fix the issues they’ve seen with Brexit and the management of this by the current government.

1) we have not implemented the import controls that we have to do legally – when we do it will cause utter chaos.  thats the bit that has not happened yet and will be more damaging than anything to date

https://www.theguardian.com/food/2023/jul/13/next-phase-brexit-bad-for-diet-health-wealth

2) Because he is stating he wants a better deal while ruling out anything to get it.  Its pure stupidity and an attempt to con us

he knows very well that what he wants cannot be achieved without the rapprochement he has ruled out

You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false?

No.. no.. FFS TJ I never said I wanted any of this. I’m trying to explain to you that your black and white interpretation of events isn’t how people or politics work.

he knows very well that what he wants cannot be achieved without the rapprochement he has ruled out

He also knows very well that:

– Nothing he says will survive to the next leader, possibly even the next term or even the start of this one
– He needs votes, from people who won’t notice or care if he moves closer to the EU in subtle ways
– After being elected he’s not bound by anything he says now, he can always cite changing circumstances – this isn’t a manifesto and even those almost never get stuck to.

Politics has always worked this way, so I’ve no idea why you’re zeroing in on this point over and over again. I think that you just don’t like him and are looking for reasons to bash him. Everyone does this, by the way, including me, you really do just need to be aware of it.

I initially supported Starmer.  I thought he would be a good leader if dull.  His lies over brexit turned me against him as did his attitude towards Scotland

I cannot support a brexiteer which is what he has become

He needs votes, from people who won’t notice or care if he moves closer to the EU in subtle ways

and he clearly does not need pro european, anti privitisation pro democracy voters or he thinks that they will hold their nose and vote for him where he is sadly deluded and the daily mail readers will never vote for him.

Moving closer to the EU in subtle ways will not acheive what he says he wants to do.  He cannot solve the NI issue or improve trade without rapprochement and he has ruled this out.  thats a dishonesty on a very basic level.  what he is saying is that he will continue to make the UK poorer and marginalised .

You want to hear a politician lying and gaslighting and stating things both us and him know is false?

that was in answer to Argee

Politics has always worked this way

I have never seen such from anyone but the tories inthe past.  Its that he knows he is lying and promising the impossible, we know he is lying and promising the impossible.  No one trusts a word he says as a result and he has lost all credibility

Brexit is still the number one political discussion I hear and I hear it most days

He willbe found out in the election campaign because brexit will still be a live issue and he is not very vulnerable to pro EU parties.  SNP will make hay from his hard brexit stance

Its very simple – I and many others cannot vote for a brexiteer party and one led by someone telling lies about brexit.  the byelections and polls show clearly that this approach is losing him votes adn will stop him gaining seats that would otherwise be winnable

I’m trying to explain to you that your black and white interpretation of events isn’t how people or politics work.

I have been following politics since before you were born.  I know how politics works.  I have never seen such a betrayal of the population from a labour leader and a leader going so strongly against the public mood when the public want a rapprochement with the EU by 2:1 and he will not even follow them let alone lead

I totally understand and get your point.  I do not agree.  His stance makes labour impossible to vote for for many of us.

Its not a black and white interpretation.  He has made definitive statements.  No CU,no FOM, no SM thus no raproachment with the EU thus no solution to the trade issues or NI.  thats the simple truth of his position. NO weasel words, no room for interpretation.  total black and white position he has taken – the hardrest of hard brexits is his position.

We are never going to agree on this

You think he is merely playing to the crowd and actually will do something very differnt to what he says he will do.  I do not.

No CU,no FOM, no SM thus no raproachment with the EU thus no solution to the trade issues or NI.

Those aren’t the only ways to move closer to the EU, we’ve discussed this. You’re choosing to ignore it all because you don’t like him.

You think he is merely playing to the crowd and actually will do something very differnt to what he says he will do.

No I think he will do something subtly different, or more likely just not do anything whilst having conversations with the EU behind the scenes that we’ll never hear about.

Those aren’t the only ways to move closer to the EU,

They are however the only ways that will achieve what he says he wants to achieve

anything else will not alter the trade or NI issues.

I do not like him because of his brexiteer position.  Its not that I attack him because of my dislike of him.  I had high hopes for him and supported him until he turned full on hard brexiteer

They are however the only ways that will achieve what he says he wants to achieve

He says “make Brexit work” but that could mean absolutely anything. Your definition of ‘work’ is only one thing, everyone can have their own definition of what ‘work’ means. That’s the point of political slogans. It’s so wooly that nearly anything could be said to have satisfied it from some angle or other.

the point is there is no “making brexit work” in any value or interpretation of work

We both know its an utter disaster and we are yet to see the worst of it

yes it is because he is trying to convince us brexit can be made to work when it cannot

That’s not gaslighting. You might think it’s bullshitting or lying, but it’s not gaslighting. Stop gaslighting me about what gaslighting means…

Gaslighting is the subjective experience in which an individual’s perception of reality is repeatedly undermined or questioned by another person.

IMO this fits that definition

“make brexit work”  My perception of reality is that this is impossible.  He is trying to convince us it is

Ok enough!  round and round we go

You don’t really need to believe in brexit. It’s happened, it’s an immutable fact that it’s happened. It’s not like debating whether or not climate change is happening or Covid existed.

Trying to make the best of the shitshow we have rather than shouting about what a bad idea it was seems sensible to me..

Brexit is not complete.  We still have to put in import controls which will be very damaging

I agree with yo we should be trying to reduce the damage.  its a shame Starmer has ruled that out and thats why I object to his position.  He has ruled out doing anything significant to make the best of the shitshow

Daffy – just sometimes you could consider others viewpoints?  I know thats a bit rich coming from me but pot kettle black 🙂

Good Lord, TJ – I try, but for the life of me, I can’t understand the logic of your reasoning on this or on climate.

In this, you and I agree that Brexit is a dumpster fire, you and I agree that it needs overturned, but (and as with the climate thread) you propose absolutely no solutions, just an entrenched idealism to a particular vision without any regard for the practicalities.  I’m an optimist, but also a pragmatist.  You’re an idealist.

Your view is that Labour should go full force against Brexit, but the polls don’t support that.  It’s at best 48/35 with a whole lot of undecideds and when that came to a vote, many simply wouldn’t want to re-run it again, so that advantage would shrink.  Even if it didn’t, that rejoin vote would be heavily split between L/LD/SNP, so would Labour get a majority when the Tories would claim most of the leave vote?   I’m not so sure.

You think it’s all or nothing, but we don’t need to be part of the EEA or EU to allow easy movement of people – we can simply relax or remove visa requirements.  It’s not FoM, so it’s not a toxic issue, but it makes it simple to allow Europeans to work here in the UK and hopefully visa versa with EU agreement.

You see?  You’ve got control of your borders, you can choose your policies (they’re not dictated by the EU), but you choose NOT to be a dick with them, you understand that it’s beneficial, that it helps Britain to have a more open door policy to the EU – You’ve made Brexit work for Britain (you’ve delivered control but chose not to apply it).  No one on the leave side can claim you don’t have control of the borders, no one on the remain side can claim that we’re separated from Europe.  It removes a massive argument from the leave camp and shows how alignment HELPS rather than hurts.

No CU and no SM means no meaningful advantages to the UK. Not on a wide scale. We can buy our way back into some bits (at probably 50x the ‘price’ we had previously) and those sectors will feel some benefit. But getting anywhere near what we have lost back? Forget it without CU & SM.

So who are YOU voting for TJ, which unicorn party exists in your world?

No CU and no SM means no meaningful advantages to the UK. Not on a wide scale. We can buy our way back into some bits (at probably 50x the ‘price’ we had previously) and those sectors will feel some benefit. But getting anywhere near what we have lost back? Forget it without CU & SM.

That’s just utter rubbish.  Norway isn’t part of the CU/SM but all it’s policies and practices are aligned to the EU so there are little to no tariffs and checks at the borders.  They benefit in trade as would we.

Again, it’s not the rejoin solution, it’s a practical, pragmatic step towards it.

I really do not know in tbe borders.  Probably green.  My vote will make zero difference to the liklihood of a tory government as the tories have no chance.   My seat is a safeish snp seat with labour second and green 3rd.  So my seat will be anti tory no matter what.

So my choice is a pro European anti privitisation pro democracy party where i have a choice of 2

Infortuatly my snp mp is a right diddy.  Labour candidate last time hopelessly compromised by the stat notice   green candidate last time a good egg.  Greens have a chance of taking the seat

Ill decide for sure closer to the time once i have seen the polls but its highly unlikly to be labour because of their brexit stance

TJ – then vote SNP to ensure they get in

It doesn’t matter whether a seat goes to Labour, SNP, LibDem or Green because if you’re not voting Tory then you need to vote for whoever will ensure they don’t get the seat and/or into Govt.

My seat will not be tory no matter what.  Unfortunately my SNP mp is a utter diddy who lied to my face.  Makes it hard to vote for her. she was one who was surprisingly elected in that landslide for the SNP where a bunch of diddies who should never have been near the HOC got elected

So my choice is…

…very different to that faced by most people voting in most seats in the UK at the next general election.

Look, I think we all know your opinion on this TJ. You’re mostly pushing at an open door as to the advantages of being an EU state, but seem to be ignoring what everyone else is facing come an election, and what could follow it in the years immediately after it. Maybe back off just a smidge for a little while.

Makes it hard to vote for her.

And this children; goes some way to explain why we’ve had Tory governments for 24 of the 37 years I’ve been allowed to vote. Nobody’s personal interaction with just one member of a political party that one time they said something you don’t like is not (underlined repeat) NOT a good enough reason to discard your solemn duty and  responsibility to make sure the Tories don’t win. Unless you are actually a Tory ****; You vote for the person with greatest chance of making sure the Tory either 1. Loses, or 2. has a reduced majority, that’s the social contract with are supposed to have with each other.

we don’t need to be part of the EEA or EU to allow easy movement of people – we can simply relax or remove visa requirements.

I mean that certainly makes it easy for foreign people to move easily to the UK. It doesn’t make it easy for UK people to move easily abroad!

I totally agree.  However tories have no chance in my seat.  It SNP 13000 majority, labour in second place, tories well behind in 3rd place with a constantly dropping share of the vote thus pretty much zero chance of them winning

If I were in a labour / tory marginal the decision would be much harder of course

Its not that she said something I did not like.  Its that she promised to meet with us over the Stat notice scandal pre election, kept on changing the date of the meeting until after the election then refused to meet with us

this is a significant issue locally that has cost Edinburgh residents hundreds of millions and the council tax payers tens of millions.  Me personally it could have made me bankrupt and homeless if I had not fought so hard.  Still has the potential to cost me £50 000.  Its been a 20+ year struggle.

Wouldn’t the MSP be the better point of contact, guessing your MP is Deirdre Brock, probably more her team being blockers, she must hold monthly surgeries though for those trying to get her or her team to remember?

Anyway, as others have said, i think everyone is in agreement on this thread that Brexit was a joke that caused nothing but problems, the thing that grates me most just now is seeing Farage in the last few weeks running around like a wounded soul because his bank account was transferred from Coutts, and even now, getting public apologies from Coutts and the BBC, this man stood up and lied to an entire nation every day to push Brexit, where’s our apology from him?!

It was the fact she said she would meet with us ( a pressure group) and then refused to once elected with a series of lies along the way.  Yes its Brock.  It was her directly – I was a party to the correspondence and she will not discuss it at surgeries either.

for a prospective MP ( as she was then) to agree to meet with us pre election ( we wanted to know her stance so as to decide if to vote for her) then she kept on changing the date of the meeting until she was elected then once elected flatly refused to meet.  ie she was pretending she would do something about this to get our votes then refused to even hear us. It was clearly a deliberate attempt to get our vote by lying

If I were in a labour / tory marginal the decision would be much harder of course

No, it really isn’t.

There’s very little to separate Tories and Labour on Brexit. For me, Brexit is the seminal UK political event of my lifetime – a rejection of progress and collaboration for the common good based on a pack of lies and driven by racism and xenophobia. It is not a fad or a trend, but a pivotal point where stupidity triumphed – and then revelled in its own stupidity.

I have to vote for a party that is openly against self-harming stupidity. I cannot vote Labour until they tell the truth – Brexit is a horrendous mistake. Even if they then say “that we have to live with for the foreseeable future unless we want to unwind bits of it”. This is not what Starmer has said. He has stated that there is no economic case for rejoin. That is bollocks. He knows it is bollocks, but here he is – an intelligent former QC – having to debase himself saying he believes Brexit can be made to work. Like the straight A student in a comprehensive who has to pretend to be ‘fick’ just to fit in. It is undignified, unedifying and laughable.

I cannot vote Labour.

Libdem or Green it has to be.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/dec/05/reversing-brexit-now-would-not-help-uk-economy-says-keir-starmer

^^^

Here is Keir Starmer, former QC, pretending that stupidity can be made to ‘work’.

Here are the only two appropriate responses:

😂/🤦‍♂️

Honestly, how can anyone with more than two brain cells believe in (and thus vote for) that?

Say it straight. It’s a colossal **** up that needs to be reversed as far as possible as soon as possible.

I understand that, I admire your conviction.

I hope you’re not in a marginal area where that vote counts though. If the tories get back in as a result, that would be an act of self harm on similar scale now to Brexit.

I know technically we can reverse it in another 5 years, but the damage they could do and the impact longer term can’t IMHO be underestimated, if we allow them another 5 years to complete their ‘project’. And I know the ‘labour = same thing / different rosette’ challenge that’ll be thrown back, but it’s a two horse race where least worst option will have to do.

That’s the idea of democracy – if you have red lines as a voter you have red lines.

I will not vote for anyone who perpetuates the lie that Brexit is anything other than a total **** up with no upsides. That is pandering to stupidity and prejudice and I will not condone it with my vote.

#usefulidiots

It’s a handy term and IMO adequately describes a number of the posters’ above…

I’d sooner be lied to by a politician trying to get in to start working on undoing the damage of Brexit than be lied to again by the bastards who are going to make things even worse.