Brexit 2020+

So Binners – only the right can influence public opinion?

Who owns most of the press?

Is starmer going to run trips to the Titanic but there won’t be fatalities because he will ask the sea to be nice to the submarine.

but don’t try to pretend it’s going to make one bit of difference in the long run.

Where have I said that I think it will? Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That’s my political philosophy in a sentence.  I long ago gave up up any hope that our politicians could manage better than that. Revolution (see Brexit) mostly doesn’t make things better.

I strongly believe and the polling and local elections show that this is going to cost Starmer a majority

In that case, can I propose our usual pastry-based wager? 😃

I understand why he is doing it but I am certain its wrong

Oh OK, so if it’s not your perfect Socialist European model, then reject it out of hand? If Labour isn’t the perfect solution to your particular issues, then it’s beyond the Pale?

I will buy you a slap up Greggs supper if by the end of Labour’s next term that we don’t have closer economic ties to the EU.

 Labour Govts are historically generally better at the sorts of social policies that, for the folks that need it to be; broadly speaking make life more tolerable. That’s my political philosophy in a sentence.

Your philosophy is make things marginally less shit?

Would voting reform be considered too revolutionary for your philosophy?

Many of the problems we’ve experienced this century can be attributed to the UK’s voting system which encourages parties to pander to a tiny percentage of the population.

Sorry, but my philosophy is to make things better in a way that is going to result in lasting change.

You haven’t posted the victory spoils from the last one yet 🙂

for sure.  I think 10 -20 seats short of a majority ‘cos the anti tory vote in remain areas will be split and that his brexiteer stance will be used as a weapon.  Polls are indicating this right now and closing

I will buy you a slap up Greggs supper if by the end of Labour’s next term that we don’t have closer economic ties to the EU.

Hmm – needs a bit of definition – a few minor things won’t do but yes in principle.  I’m gonna be so fat 🙂

and yes – brexit is an absolute red line for me.  I cannot ever vote for a brexiteer party.  fortunately the tories have no chance in my seat.  In a tory / labour marginal that might be tested as I normal vote tactically anti tory

In that case, can I propose our usual pastry-based wager? 😃

Labour are relying on keeping the red wall racists onside and appealing to disillusioned SNP voters to get a majority (not me speculating, that’s what they’ve said).

This is two groups of voters who have diametrically opposed  views when it comes to Europe.

Starmer has decided to ignore Scotland (despite focusing on it, apparently) and simply pander to the red-wall racists.

It takes a particular kind of arrogance to assume this is going to result in significant gains in Scotland.

Would voting reform be considered too revolutionary for your philosophy?

I don’t think either of the two parties that are fighting for this next election are interested in voting reform. Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline, and we need to sort out more pressing issues. And while I do believe that govts can do more than one thing at a time, without a massive majority and several terms in office, most have **** it up when presented with the opportunity.

I don’t think there’s an appetite for voting reform in the country, beyond nerdy political threads like this one, and given the smug half assed condensation the last opportunity for referendum was handed down, I doubt they’d be another coming anytime soon.

Strong appetite for voting reform in Scotland – because we have seen it works  Voting reform would mean never having a tory government again more than likely and certainlay not a far right one like we have now.  It would mean centrerist coalitions and the majority in the UK are leftish

along with reversing brexit its a key thing to make the UK a functioning 21st century social democracy

It takes a particular kind of arrogance to assume this is going to result in significant gains in Scotland.

To make gains in Scotland all you have to do is rely on the cops arresting your opponents every now and again to keep reminding the public that there’s “something something shifty” going on The SNP will suffer becasue of it, I’m not sure that arrogance has anything to do with politic realities.

Looking forward to the future Question Time where they go to a more broadminded city location and speak to an audience or remainers/ rejoiners who in contrast may be made up of predominately under 50’s about their opinions on Brexit, that is going to happen isn’t it? Isn’t it? Baring the odd one or two the leaver audience fulfilled the brief from the opening shot to the last. Not many youthful faces there…

To make gains in Scotland all you have to do is rely on the cops arresting your opponents every now and again to keep reminding the public that there’s “something something shifty” going on The SNP will suffer becasue of it, I’m not sure that arrogance has anything to do with politic realities.

I love the fact that you have appointed yourself the arbitrator of ‘political realities’.

Did you make yourself a hat?

Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline, and we need to sort out more pressing issues.

You do realise that until the two major parties stop pandering to a tiny minority of the population we are always going to have far too many people below the breadline?

 It would mean centrerist coalitions

This study will tell you that overall collation govts do worse than single executive govts at keeping their election promises, collation govts who’s policies are closely aligned do better, but still worse than single executives at keeping election pledges.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/26379508

This study will tell you that overall collation govts do worse than single executive govts at keeping their election promises, collation govts who’s policies are closely aligned do better, but still worse than single executives at keeping election pledges.

Of course they do. That’s the point.

If you have a minority of the population imposing it’s views on the majority that’s not really a price worth paying in the name of ‘getting things done’ or ‘keeping election manifesto pledges’.

matt_outandaboutFull Member
This new party?

https://www.trueandfairparty.uk/

Yes, that one, @matt_outandabout.

My friend is running as a candidate, and I quite like a lot of what they’re saying, although I worry that they’ll take some of the labour vote here and that’s the only party that could possibly challenge the tories in this constituency…

Voting reform is not at the top of my political wish list when there are folks on or below the breadline

Voting reform is the thing that could get people off the breadline.

My position – a bit repetitive, but hey, seven years today and the same basic questions are being asked i.e. Name one tangible benefit of Brexit to the general population…

Tories have to own Brexit now. They turned themselves into a populist-nationalist Brexit Party – courting the votes of the hard of thinking with the connivance of their mates.

Labour have to be seen to want to make Brexit work. Or at least that is what Starmer’s advisers are telling him. He has to pretend to believe a totally idiotic policy can be made to work. He’s a clever bloke – it follows that he cannot personally believe this to be true. The problem is that if he reopens the debate fully he will lose the racist moron vote overnight. His strategists are telling him the racist moron vote is more important than the floating vote between LibDem/Green and Labour.

That is fine. Labour don’t think they need my vote. They won’t be getting it for one main reason. I truly hate the way Brexit has corrupted political discourse in this country. To lead an intelligent, educated former QC to have to pretend that an idiotic act is somehow OK…? So, I refuse to vote for anyone who won’t call Brexit out for what it is – namely a nation-level screw up.

But here’s the kicker. If Starmer’s strategists are correct, my vote is not required for a Labour majority, right? So, I will vote Libdem safe in the knowledge that it still means a Labour majority and I have not surrendered my principles. That is a kind of win-win.

Hope those Starmer Strategists are right…

EDIT: Or I could vote for Gina Miller’s party.

My friend is running as a candidate, and I quite like a lot of what they’re saying, although I worry that they’ll take some of the labour vote here and that’s the only party that could possibly challenge the tories in this constituency…

It depends what you want your vote to do.

A lot of people will tell you a vote for anyone other than Labour is a wasted vote.  That takes a very narrow and quite frankly childish view where the most important thing is that the right team wins.

If you and enough voters voted for a party that represents what you want to see happen, Labour will take notice.

Even if the party you vote for never wins a seat it can still massively affect the country if it forces the mainstream parties to chase your vote by adopting the policies you want to see enacted.

Given just how Tory-lite this incarnation of Labour is, I would say a vote for Labour is the real wasted vote in this scenario.

Someone had to try the reverse UKIP thing, hadn’t predicted it would be Miller. Doomed to failure though, UKIP may have presented itself successfully as a grass roots organisation, but ultimately without right wing newspaper support and the resulting TV media amplification (such as QT) it would have withered on the vine. There is no corresponding media support or route for Miller’s party. She’ll get the occasional radio and TV panel slot, but nothing comparable to what Farage achieved when it mattered most for his party.

If you and enough voters voted for a party that represents what you want to see happen, Labour will take notice.

What you might be hoping is that enough other people will hold their noses and vote to get the Tories out, while you get the warm glow of voting for an option that better matches your aims. Feels nice. Not a risk I’ll be taking (again) in my seat… I did that when Brown and Miliband led Labour… and so part of “all this” mess, including Brexit, is my fault. The warm glow of voting for third placed parties to make my policy point is now stone cold dead.

If we had PR for UK wide elections it would all be different. Of course. But we don’t.

Bruce, how do you plan to get voter reform implemented without having voter reform in place already to ensure that the vote for voter reform comes out in favour of voter reform?

“‘scuse me government, would you mind passing this legeslation that means you wont be in government much in future….”

” Sure, yeah. After all we’ve always had the needs of the populace at the forefront of our policies….”

Bruce, how do you plan to get voter reform implemented without having voter reform in place already to ensure that the vote for voter reform comes out in favour of voter reform?

UKIP got us out of the EU without ever winning a seat.

UKIP got us out of the EU without ever winning a seat.

UKIP mobilised idiocy and prejudice. A pro-rejoin party can’t do that.

UKIP mobilised idiocy and prejudice. A pro-rejoin party can’t do that.

UKIP stole Tory votes and forced them to chase them by moving further and further right (which caused Labour to move further and further right).

If a pro-rejoin pro-voting reform party starts stealing Labour votes Labour will chase after them.

he is running scared of racists in those northern constituencies

You’ve got to move from this childish belief that the pro-Brexit vote was the result of the prejudices of provincial thickos and racists.

I do, however, agree with you that Starmer is not going to pursue joining the EU – at least in a first parliament. He has said exactly that. It might be that in 5 years’ time he comes back with a new manifesto to seek a mandate to begin negotiations. I agree with you that rejoiners who think Starmer is saying all this with a nod and a wink are self-deluding. I disagree with you that it is a bad idea at this juncture.

You’ve got to move from this childish belief that the pro-Brexit vote was the result of the prejudices of provincial thickos and racists.

Nothing childish about it.  Its well proven especially in those red wall seats.  Yes it was more than that but that group – the red wall racists is who Starmer is pandering to.  ukip played nicely on their prejudices

But here’s the kicker. If Starmer’s strategists are correct, my vote is not required for a Labour majority, right?

I do wonder who the Labour supporters on here are going to be angry at if Labour manage to lose the next election.  Will it be Starmer and his strategists or those of us who choose not to vote Labour because they offer nothing other than being a marginally less shit version of the Tories.

My guess is it’s going to be our fault.

I think we are conflating the people who are still convinced it was the right thing and being very vocal about it, and those who voted for it in 2016 for a myriad of other reasons. It’s amazing how corrosive years of austerity, financial hopelessness, erosion of public services and loss of sense of community can be to your mindset.

My feeling is that a lot of people would find it hard to put into words what drove them to vote Leave, perhaps an emotional response, a general malaise and feeling of being forgotten and ignored – which made them vote for a change, rather than the status quo. Hoping for something a bit better, which of course was never coming.

TV crews and other journalists don’t tend to interview those people, perhaps because they regret it, don’t want to appear foolish, or perhaps because they just don’t want to talk to reporters, so you tend to hear from people who have fixed (and often quite unpleasant) views.

Finally someone has delivered a worthy reason for brexit.
Where can I sign up for ukip?
https://fb.watch/lliA8VNJXV/

You’ve got to move from this childish belief that the pro-Brexit vote was the result of the prejudices of provincial thickos and racists.

Nah I’m alright, ive watched a few YouTube clips of QT last night with the **** thick pig-ignorant uninformed dickheads and my opinion of the average Brexit voter is entirely valid.

Roofs ,it’s all because of roofs.

or those of us who choose not to vote Labour because they offer nothing other than being a marginally less shit version of the Tories

In Labour/Tory marginals, those who didn’t vote Labour at the last election (afraid of nationalised broadband or whatever pitiful excuse they have) are partly to blame for the mess of the last four years. Come the next election, if people don’t vote to unseat Tory MPs, and they squeak in, yes, they will be partly to blame. I’ve been that person many times. Never again. Better than the Tories but not exactly what I want, because of compromises made for people I don’t agree with, be it on EU relations or buying school or university places or whatever… just got to suck it up and help take power off the Tories, accepting a small shift rather than a big jump to where I want the UK be.

thick pig-ignorant uninformed dickheads

…and it’s exactly this kind of rubbish that means people skip over thinking what the vote was really about, to glom on to “rejoin EU now” as the fix to everything, to be amazed when it doesn’t get you elected, and to fail to fix anything at all.

It wasn’t about roofs it was the unfairness that we adhered to the rules and no-one else did.

Unfortunately in struggling to come up with an example of this her brain managed to grasp on something else that was bouncing around inside her cerebrum that old favourite for oldies “Health and Safety gorn mad”

It wasn’t about roofs it was the unfairness that we adhered to the rules and no-one else did.

Obviously, all countries applied different rules in slightly different ways… anyone living in or visiting multiple countries knew that (prime example in our case is how long and hard “we” fought against minimum holiday and maximum unpaid overtime rules)… but, for some reason, people in the UK so often felt it was just others resisting rules, and our government overzealously applying them. Nonsense, of course. Anyone now dealing with German customs will tell you that being overly flexible with the rules isn’t really their thing… where as VAT collection in Greece… all countries quite different… harmonisation is always slow and has limits… but no one had more opt outs and exceptions in place than the UK.

Obviously she was planted by the BBC to make brexit voters look as thick as pig shit.

In Labour/Tory marginals, those who didn’t vote Labour at the last election (afraid of nationalised broadband or whatever pitiful excuse they have) are partly to blame for the mess of the last four years.

True, but in this case the ‘pitiful excuse’ will be that they won’t vote for a party that has no policies they agree with and seem to be a continuation of the status quo with the promise they will do it a bit more competently.

Given the choice between voting for a party all of whose major policies I broadly agree with and a party with no major policies I agree with I’ll choose the one I agree with.  Even if that means I don’t get to be on the winning team.

John Curtis analysis

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jun/23/britain-2016-brexit-vote-eu-referendum-labour