PR, you say?

I don’t see labour talking about it as they know no matter how useless they are, they’ll probably ‘get a go at driving the car’ sooner or later, and they seem to be content with that.

The lib dems on the other hand:

“The first step is getting the Conservatives out of Government. Then, we must reform our electoral system to make everyone’s vote count equally.”

“It’s clear that First-Past-the-Post distorts democracy. It has allowed the Conservative Party to cling to power – despite a majority of the British people voting against them at every election. Leaving them free to change Prime Minister as many times as they like, without a shred of accountability. I don’t need to tell you how damaging that has been for our country and our democracy.”

“But we have a real opportunity right now. For the first time ever, a majority of the British public now supports electoral reform. People know it’s the only way to bring about the change we so desperately need.”

“Electoral reform can put an end to safe seats, once and for all. It can force MPs to listen to their constituents, make them accountable, and make everyone’s vote powerful.”

“If you give people more power, you get better outcomes. As academic studies have shown time and again, stronger democracy is good for the economy, social justice and the environment. With PR, you’re more likely to get better schools, more funding for the health service, more affordable housing, safer communities, and a cleaner, healthier natural environment. So what are we waiting for?”

“Every vote for the Liberal Democrats at the next election will be a vote for proportional representation. And ONLY a vote for the Liberal Democrats will be a vote for PR.”

mattyfez – you are Ed Davey and ICMFP.

Heheh… Not quite, but I’m more Davey than Starmer & Sunak inc.

And yet the maligned new labour had an extensive length of time in office.

When you look at the actual votes though by 2005 they had cratered. Its only the flaws of fptp which let it be anything other than a struggling government.
Which is a major factor in Blair walking away to protect his legacy and leave others to deal with the downsides.

When you look at brexit and ignore the simple minded claims about the brexiteers all being racist there is a direct feed in with a bunch of people being utterly disillusioned with what they got and voting for a change, any change.
So yes the tories will be destructive but problem is if we dont actually have a party offering clear alternatives we start getting their bad habits normalise and so they feel like they can go further and further.
As indeed happening with several policies which Thatcher thought were a tad extreme but after new labour got portrayed as a natural extension.

just today it’s announced that 29% are happy with the nhs vs. 70% in 2010. bloody new labour. bastards.

29% are happy with the nhs

Would that be the 29% of people who didn’t need to use NHS services recently?

When you look at brexit and ignore the simple minded claims about the brexiteers all being racist there is a direct feed in with a bunch of people being utterly disillusioned with what they got and voting for a change, any change.

**** it, i’m gonna vote tory just for a laugh.

I think you’ll find that for winning 3 elections and massively increasing spending on health and education Blair and Brown are rightfully condemned as the utter ****s that they are!

If you want to be revered as a true hero, bordering on god-like deity, inducing nauseating sycophancy beyond belief, then what you really need to do is lose 2 elections, 1 absolutely catastrophically, rail against the EU for years then enable Brexit (oh the irony) and… erm… I don’t know… maybe make some placards about Palestine and appear on Russia Today or something?

Ladies and gentlemen… ‘The Left’

Screams of IRAQ in 3…2…1…

I didn’t think the blair/brown govennment were too diabolical, aside from the Iraq war and the selling of the UK assets at pound shop prices.

But apart from that they were ok when they didn’t actually do anything.

Which is exactly why I will not put my X in a box for labour until they figure out what they stand for.

I didn’t think the blair/brown govennment were too diabolical

Very magnanimous of you.

I’m sure that the country under those 13 years of the Tory’s would have looked exactly the same as those 13 years of New Labour, maybe even better, because they’re all the same, aren’t they?

Do me a favour… give your head a wobble and maybe engage with reality 🙄

Serious quesion… who are labour? and what do they want?
Not EU/SM/CU

how do they intend to run the UK? raise the tax?

They could compound brexit with high tax, but that will scare off investors, Labour are just part of the tory machine, whether they realise it or not.

Labour are playing the same old game and expecting new results.

Labour are just part of the tory machine

You seriously believe that? Really?

I’ve got a meeting tomorrow lunchtime with the Labour candidate for our local elections in May.

He’s a thoroughly decent bloke who passionately believes in trying to make peoples lives around here better. We’re going to discuss the design of the leaflets and posters and things that we’re going to be distributing and door knocking for the next month (no doubt in the pissing rain) to try and get Labour people elected rather than Tory’s in a key marginal constituency that regularly changes hands. We believe that things will be considerably better for the people who matter if that were the outcome.

But apparently we’re all Tory’s, aren’t we? All the same? So we certainly wouldn’t be able to rely on your vote? Because Labour, Tory, no difference, right?

That’s just another vote for the Tory’s as far as I’m concerned. ur Tory MPs has a majority of 100. So all he really needed was a few people like you.

But you’ve obviously got your idealogical purity and that must be nice for you. That shits really important, after all.

That shits really important

It’s very important to me, and it’s exactly why I won’t vote labour unless they have a pro-EU manifesto.

I admire your conviction if I don’t admire your stance.

GLHF

If we’re asking who the Tory is here – and you’re the one throwing that accusation around – you’re of considerably more value to them than me. You’re enabling their continued power

But yeah… idealogical purity is very important

Outcomes of elections? … not so much

Living life as an abstract construct must be lovely. Me, I prefer reality and dealing with the world as it is, rather than how I’d personally like it to be.

I’d love to live in a socialist utopia, but right now I just want the Tory’s out, because until that happens we’re all ****ed!

I’m not accusing anyone of anything. We’re all friends here hopefully…

Can we re-wind this a little bit?

I’m simply saying that I’m not going to vote labour. I’m sure as death not going to vote tory either.

This is ‘the brexit’ thread after all.

Yeah, we seem to have gone off on a tangent, but it’s all relative

I’m not after an argument.

I’m just pointing out that there is a price to be paid for your stance. Like I said, my new Tory MP, James Daly – a full on Boris (then Truss) supporting, libertarian uber-free market Brexiteer got in last time with a majority of 100 votes. He displaced James Frith who was a brilliant MP and a really genuine bloke who passionately believes in social justice

100 votes

So as far as I’m concerned, he was gifted his seat because of people with the same attitude as you

I’m an active Labour Party member, but more than anything I just want the Tory’s out!

Idealogical purity is an indulgence of the left which just enables the Tory’s, as 2 elections under Corbyn tested to destruction

Whatever your stance on Brexit (and I think it’s the greatest act of suicide any nation has ever made), we are where we are, everything’s relative and you vote for whoever it is who stands the most chance of getting rid of this shower of corrupt, morally bankrupt, self-serving ****s

It’s that simple.

price to be paid for your stance.

I didn’t vote for this shit show.

I just want the Tory’s out.

me too, but labour in thier current manifestation will do nothing other than perpetuate the current **** up system. That’s exactly why I won’t vote labour. There’s no PR in thier snake-oil blurb, and Starmer is ‘clear’ that he want’s to integrate with the EU without integrating, so there’s some sound logigical nonsence and word salad right there.

Theres no PR in thier snake-oil blurb.

Indeed. And I dearly wish there was. I think the failure of the Labour leadership to call for it is madness

But will that stop me voting Labour? No. I voted for (lifelong Brexiteer) Jeremy Corbyn twice and I view him with nothing but contempt and think his ‘leadership’ of the party as the greatest gift the Tory’s ever received. Truly all their Christmases and birthdays come at once. But what else was I supposed to do? Vote Lib Dem? Make up the 1% who vote Green? Might as well vote Tory for the outcome that would deliver.

100 votes

So everything is relative and the least worst option is what I vote for. Anything other than getting shut of these ****s is pure self-indulgence

Do labour even have any policies other than ‘we’re not quite as evil as the tories’?

Well I’ll be able to tell you in more after my meeting tomorrow

I’ll keep you posted 😃

the least worst option is what I vote for

off topic, but is this not a logical fallacy?

It’s the entire reason the UK voting system is knackered?

I’m gonna vote for who I want, who I belive might do a good job, so it’s the lib dems or greens for me.
Wasted vote maybe, but I can sleep easy with a clear conscience.

Well I’ll be able to tell you in more after my meeting tomorrow

I’ll keep you posted 😃

I’d be really interested in that actually, sounds interesting! please do!

I’m gonna vote for who I want, who I belive might do a good job, so it’s the lib dems or greens for me.

Wasted vote maybe, but I can sleep easy with a clear conscience

Maybe a wasted vote? Sleep easy? Even if they don’t stand a cat in hells chance of actually being elected? Eve if it just holds the door open for another Tory? You might as well have put your cross in the box then set fire to it.

Enjoy your permanent Tory government then. I’m sure your own personal voting record and idealogical purity will help you absolve yourself of any responsibility for it

I despair. I really do

I’m guessing that like me and a lot of people you can afford this indulgence. Many, many people literally won’t survive another 5 years of Tory rule, but yeah… sit back an feel that warm glow of being part of the 2% who voted Green or the 6% who voted lib dem and try not to think about how many votes a lot of Tory MPs got in by

I’m not going to tactically vote, simple as that. I’ll vote for who I think is best.

At the momemnt, that will be lib dem.

The only people pleased to hear that are you and Tory Central Office

Only one of those two stand to benefit from that decision though

Clue: it’s not you

It’s like taking your shoes off and throwing them at the sky to protest against the rain

Like setting fire to your house because you don’t like the curtains

oh please don’t do it Binners, dont destroy democracy just to keep the tories in, if not in the next GE, then the one after.. we are better than this.

Vote labour- get tories in the next round.

I don’t accept it is “ideological purity” choosing to vote for a party with a pro-eu stance. That’s simply one of the biggest issues facing the country, and Labour’s policy on this is self-defeating and demonstrably out of touch with popular opinion.

If they keep their current stance, they will win the next election, spend 4 years ripping themselves to shreds while they try to square the impossible circle of improving our dire situation while appeasing a rump of bitter pensioners and thick racists, and then we’ll have another decade of Tory.

Don’t go this to us. I don’t want a brief failing labour govt followed by another decade of Tory.

Britons have more confidence in EU than Westminster, poll finds

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/mar/30/britons-more-confidence-in-eu-than-westminster-poll-brexi

Obviously at the next GE the important thing to do is to vote tactically anti tory even if it means holding your nose.  But when your choice is Tory, tory lite or tory enablers its not easy.

@binners, are you sure you’re the best person to go knocking on doors?’

‘Why the **** aren’t you voting Labour, you stupid ****? Stop dreaming and get back down here in the shite with the rest of us! ****!!!’

Seriously, I started off just thinking I wouldn’t vote for Labour. After listening to your rants I’m half thinking of voting Tory just to see if I can make your head explode.

Anyway, how’s your ‘real world’ voting been going the last few years? Country on the right track, overall? How are things going to be after 10 years of Labour, when the country will be ready for a Tory government again?

How many years/decades/centuries are you willing to let the current system continue for? When is the right time to start doing something to fix it?

*COUGH*SCOTLAND*COUGH

*COUGH*WHY DOES EVERYONE CONTINUALLY IGNORE THAT WHENEVER I BRING IT UP?*COUGH*

SNP held 48 of 59 seats (2 subsequent defections to Alba and 2 suspensions sitting as independents).

Yeah, voting for the third, fourth or even fifth party never gets you anywhere.

Keep sitting in shit as long as you like, you’ll figure it out eventually.

Yeah, voting for the third, fourth or even fifth party never gets you anywhere.

Keep sitting in shit as long as you like, you’ll figure it out eventually.

Yeah, but look at all the people who wasted their votes on UKIP.

They never won a single seat and now you don’t even hear anything about them for some reason.

Yeah, but look at all the people who wasted their votes on UKIP.

Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.

____________

So, being outside the new deals that USA, EU & Japan are forming to speed up and have control over moving away from fossil fuels… what’s our government doing…? Hunt bemoaning their “green protectionism”… well wake the **** up, get in the game, Britain can’t change what any of the big players do now we’re outside the EU… so accept and adapt… we gave up all control, but we do still have political and economic choices we can make.

Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.

If you look for seats where UKIP took more votes from Labour than Tory (and sufficient numbers to switch the seat), I think it will be a very short list indeed.

But feel free to prove me wrong, with facts and stuff.

Good point. People voting UKIP/BP instead of Labour did help give us Tory governments though.

And people voting UKIP instead of Tory is the reason we are out of Europe.

Indeed. But if you’re happy to have more Tory government to make your point… carry on.

thecaptain, I’m talking about people who chose not to vote Labour, and voted UKIP/BP instead… they gave Tories seats in the last few governments. Not talking about the effect of UKIP as a whole, just what happens when people choose not to vote Labour at a general election because of their strong opinions on our relationship with the EU.

Indeed. But if you’re happy to have more Tory government to make your point… carry on.

Well, voting Labour is going to give you a Tory government with an absolute majority. It might not be this election, but there will be another Tory government within the next 10 years with carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want.

Historically, Tories spend more time in government than Labour. By voting for Labour you are voting to have more Tory Governments with absolute majorities (normally based on 35% of the popular vote).

Voting for Labour is voting for the status quo. If you vote for Labour, YOU are the problem, not the people trying to change things.

Where as permanent Tory rule will deliver us PR and prevent them getting another majority?

I've always wanted to use this as a meme!!! pic.twitter.com/SFnfUjeLio

— Femi (@Femi_Sorry) March 29, 2023

So let me get this right…?

You’re going to use your vote in manner which will help deliver another Tory government at a likely general election next year in order to prevent a possible Tory government within the next 10 years?

Have I got that right?