Please don’t lump Wales in with England in this context!

I sympathise with what you are saying but to be devil’s advocate, Wales voted to leave the EU too.🙁

Its absolutely tragic. Well… it certainly will be for our kids

i hope the shit-thick racists who voted for this self-destructive bollocks are proud of themselves as they wage their little flags

The ****ing morons!

“Pig-” you forgot the prefix “pig”  apart from yhat, spot on

Wales voted to leave the EU too

Monmouthshire didn’t.

I did watch TLDR news on YouTube yesterday. They were discussing Brexit regret. The only constituency still in favour is Boston in Lincolnshire. Two others were split. All the others regret Brexit. Whether all the others want to stay is a different question, but doesn’t seem to be a massive leap.

While we’re in this period of populist politics could this possibly mean a creep back towards closer working toes with the EU? As much as I love the idea of a full on “rejoin” I don’t see it happening in my lifetime.

Not while tories and labour both are brexiteers

Yeah I think we have at least one full term (of what at this stage will, I assume, be Starmer) before any sensible talk about how to mend the relationship.

are proud of themselves as they wage their little flags

Of course they are. “Not clever enough to realise they’re not clever” is a thing.

Still, even in the Torygraph…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/britain-going-rejoin-eu-farsooner-anyone-now-imagines/

I sympathise with what you are saying but to be devil’s advocate, Wales voted to leave the EU too.

That’s a very broad brush. The reality was that the vote was moderately close everywhere, just closer in some places than others, with a few extreme pockets all over the country. If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You’ll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.

The reality was that the vote was moderately close everywhere

Not in Scotland.

Although it depends on how you define moderately close, I guess.

Not in Scotland.

Although it depends on how you define moderately close, I guess.

Of course close is subjective. Although if you want to play that game, if the leave voters in Scotland had voted remain then remain would’ve won. Its more to highlight to pointlessness (and divisiveness) of trying to say “the English” did this, “the Welsh” did that, etc. There were divisions all across the country and the national borders were one of the least significant. As I said, age and education were far more significant

As I said, age and education were far more significant

That’s true everywhere except Scotland and NI.  I think saying that Scotland doesn’t have significantly different attitudes towards Europe compared to rUK is simply not true.  As usual NI has it’s own political dynamics and can’t easily be compared to rUK.

England and Wales have broadly similar attitudes and a broadly similar political make up.  Lumping them together is perfectly legitimate, imo.

Brexit just keeps on giving. Get power of attorney before you need it. And keep your passport up to date

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/feb/13/post-brexit-rules-leave-british-woman-with-alzheimers-facing-removal-from-sweden?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Brexit just keeps on giving. Get power of attorney before you need it. And keep your passport up to date

Of course, the root cause of this issue is Brexit.  However, the aggravating factor is the Swedish authorities being complete and utter ****.

Not really surprising though.  They’ve got their own racists and bigots to appease.

England and Wales have broadly similar attitudes and a broadly similar political make up.  Lumping them together is perfectly legitimate, imo.

That’s not really true at all.  What leads you to that conclusion?

Even lumping England as a single entity is daft from all sorts of angles.

EDIT probably Scotland as well, from what I understand although I’m no expert there.  In fact treating countries as single entities is absurd in many ways.

That’s not really true at all. What leads you to that conclusion?

Every election in the last 15 to 20 years.

If you look at the political make up of NI and Scotland (which are completely distinct from each other) and then look at England and Wales then England and Wales can be seen as being so similar as makes little difference.  Wales might be a bit more Labour inclined but Labour are far closer to the Tories than the SNP are to Labour.

Up until around 2005 you could probably lump Scotland in with England and Wales.  Over the last 15 to 20 years the divergence has been rapid and severe.

In fact treating countries as single entities is absurd in many ways.

Yes, yes, we are all beautiful and unique snowflakes.  However, you simply cannot discuss politics or pretty much anything without grouping people together somehow.

In some cases that can be done by education attainment or some other metric that is independent of geography.

However, when there is a clear and distinct geographic difference that is independent of education level or other metrics then pretending that the geographic difference doesn’t exist or shouldn’t be brought up because people might be offended (because they don’t feel that way) then it makes  discussion pointless.

Of course, the root cause of this issue is Brexit.  However, the aggravating factor is the Swedish authorities being complete and utter ****.

Not really surprising though.  They’ve got their own racists and bigots to appease.

Tes, Sverige Demokratarna have forced a move to the right in Riksdagen here in Sweden, but the problem here is one of paperwork and, arguably, impartiality. If there is no power of attorney, then no one else _can_ fill out your paperwork for you. Migrationsverket are likely trying to be as fair to everyone as possible, but if she has her residency permit, then it will have an expiry date and _she_, or her legal representative, will have to apply for either citizenship or permanent right of residency.

This feels like bureaucracy rather than cruelty.

I should add (sneaky edit) that Brexit made the UK a third nation. There is _no_ legal difference between the UK and anywhere else in the world that Sweden accepts residents and migrants from. Up until 2019, that was not the case and is the direct result of Brexit.

However, you simply cannot discuss politics or pretty much anything without grouping people together somehow.

Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you’ve got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK, so saying ‘Wales is X’ or ‘England is Y’ based on that small variation is pretty terrible.

then look at England and Wales then England and Wales can be seen as being so similar as makes little difference

In 2019, Labour got 28 seats in Wales versus 8 seats for the Tories.  In England it was 296 vs 227.  I don’t see that as being similar?

Also, comparing the electoral landscape in Scotland to that in England and Wales is pretty foolish, because the SNP aren’t fielding candidates in England and Wales.  The reason the SNP get so many votes in Scotland is related to more things than the political compass of the electorate, I feel.

I think you are using the electoral results to justify your nationalistic feelings, which is.. fairly weak, intellectually, if I’m honest.

But back to Brexit – again, the results may not be as simple as you imagine.  Wales is somewhat stratified.  https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research

If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You’ll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.

And this.  Other factors were much more significant than which UK nation voters were in.  The nationalistic argument regarding Brexit is not doing anyone any favours.  The whole UK has this issue.  38% of Scots voted to leave, despite being almost entirely represented at Westminster by a remainer party.  Why did so many Scots vote to leave?

Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you’ve got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK,

Not so.  Scotland 2 to 1 remain.  Enland 55+% leave.  Thats sugnificant

Indeed, but in the case of Brexit you’ve got fairly small variations in the remain/leave split across the UK, so saying ‘Wales is X’ or ‘England is Y’ based on that small variation is pretty terrible.

Saying that Scotland has a different attitude to Europe compared to England and Wales is not ‘terrible’.  You do love your hyperbole when it comes to this subject.

I don’t think it would be particularly ‘terrible’ to say that NI has a different attitude towards Europe compared to both Scotland as well and England and Wales.  NI politics is different to rUK for obvious reasons.  Scotland also has different politics to rUK.  It’s not a controversial statement.

In 2019, Labour got 28 seats in Wales versus 8 seats for the Tories. In England it was 296 vs 227. I don’t see that as being similar?

That’s because you are in Wales.  The difference between Labour and the Conservatives is that Labour are less evil.  Otherwise the political narrative is quite similar.  Maybe when Plaid Cymru (or another non-UK party) vote starts getting above the 40% mark we can start talking about Wales being significantly different from England.

Also, comparing the electoral landscape in Scotland to that in England and Wales is pretty foolish, because the SNP aren’t fielding candidates in England and Wales. The reason the SNP get so many votes in Scotland is related to more things than the political compass of the electorate, I feel.

I feel like you can see the issue but just can’t seem to understand anything beyond your England/Wales mindset.  NI doesn’t have any parties that sit anywhere else in the UK.  If the Unionist parties in Scotland had any sense they would divorce themselves from the rUK parties and focus on representing Scotland’s interests within the Union without simply being a branch office of the UK party.

And this. Other factors were much more significant than which UK nation voters were in.

You keep saying that and yet the vote percentage wasn’t significantly higher for any non-geographic differentiator compared to Scotland vs Not-Scotland.

You have all the non-geographic differentiators and then you have the geographic differentiator (ie, Scotland).  Both are equally significant (although obviously not if you live in England or Wales).

mrmonkfinger
Free Member
Still, even in the Torygraph…

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/01/16/britain-going-rejoin-eu-farsooner-anyone-now-imagines/

Same old, same old isn’t it? Basically saying that Brexit and those that voted for it were “betrayed” by the political elite.

Nothing about Brexit itself being a malignancy that could never be one of the many things the Leave voters thought it could be.

Not so.  Scotland 2 to 1 remain.  Enland 55+% leave.  Thats sugnificant

England was 53.4% leave, Scotland was 38% leave.  So yeah, there’s a significant swing but I don’t think it’s as emphatic as you seem to think. You seem happy to ignore 38% of your compatriots who wanted to leave.

As I said before, the vote was split across the UK on all sorts of lines that were never seen before.  There are loads of aspects to it. You’re just picking the one that backs up your nationalist feelings.

But let’s not go there again – there’s a thread for it.  I just wanted to call out the idea that England and Wales are politically similar as bobbins.

nickjb
Free Member
“”I sympathise with what you are saying but to be devil’s advocate, Wales voted to leave the EU too.””

That’s a very broad brush.

Yeah, I agree mate but what I said was factually correct.

However, I live in a staunch Tory/ leave voting area even though I and many others voted for neither. Hence my sympathies for those that live in an area/ UK country that voted Leave even though they didn’t.

No i am.not just backing my nationalistic feeling because i am no ideological nationalist

You keep on making false statements about Scotland based on a lack of understanding

Scotland is very different politically.   You just dont understand this

You’re just picking the one that backs up your nationalist feelings.

While you pick the ones that back up your nationalist feelings.

Then you say, ‘But I’m not a Nationalist!’

To which I say, ‘Yes you are. You’re a British Nationalist!’

To which you say, ‘No I’m not. I don’t believe in borders!’

To which I say, ‘But you want to keep Scotland within the borders of the UK.’

To which you say, ‘Borders are just a construct that have no basis in reality.’

To which I say, ‘Then what does it matter if we’re within your borders or not.’

To which you say, ‘But that’s different…’

We’ve had this same discussion far too many times. I and others have tried to point out that you are just as much of a nationalist as any woaded up, kilted, saltire waving Scottish Nationalist.

You believe in the superiority of the UK over an independent Scotland. That makes you a UK nationalist. Stop trying to pretend you’re not and put others down because they don’t want anything to do with the UK anymore.

You believe in the superiority of the UK over an independent Scotland.

Nope.

Nope.

Yep.

Now come on ya’ bloody devil’s, let’s not get into one word replies!😁

If you want a geographical split the rural v urban is more distinct. You’ll find a far more significant division if you look a votes by education or age.

The most accurate split I believe…. isn’t so much ‘eduction’, as in how clever someone is, but more people who undertook ‘residential eduction’. Its not the case that ‘educated’ people are cleverer as lots people got to college and get pretty rubbish results – just as plenty of smart people pursue careers that dont require a college education as a launch pad. The most accurate Brexit divide is between people who left home to go to college and people who didnt leave home.

That tracks with the age divide because the quantity of residential education available in the 50s/60s/70/s was much lower than in recent decades and the access to careers was often through apprentiship rather than academia. It also holds to the city / rural split. The Brexit heartlands tend to be the places that people who want to pursue academic study leave From, and often don’t come back. Cities tend to be where they go to receive that residential eduction and also where the careers that attract people with those educations are focused.

Its not at its heart more than a divide in how people feel about incomers. When we refer to ‘educated’ and refer to rural and urban it largely just people who themselves have spent a lot of their life feeling like an incomer and don’t feel suspicious or other incomers.

People will give much more ‘reasoned’ arguments for whichever side of the Brexit fence they sit on but for the most part they’re just rationalising what is basically a gut feeling.

The most accurate Brexit divide is between people who left home to go to college and people who didnt leave home.

Just a guess. I don’t have the data.

it largely just people who themselves have spent a lot of their life feeling like an incomer and don’t feel suspicious or other incomers

I suspect you are right. And people settle on these feelings/views quite young… so people moving when they are young tend to be more welcome of other people moving… where as those moving later in life are less open to them. And those that never move… they gain so much from staying put (long standing local networking and traditions etc) that they fear they will lose when there are (obvious) incomers.

Yeah there’s a thread for this. I’m considering going over there and explaining my position yet again but BruceWee didn’t listen the last 5 times so I’m not sure it’s worth it.

If however he wants to have a proper non confrontational discussion of nationalism and the Scottish version of it, that won’t end up in a row (e.g. claiming you know more about what people think than the people themselves) then that could be quite engaging and rewarding.

Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let’s bear than in mind.

Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let’s bear than in mind.

Yep, couldnt agree more.

Good point maccruisekeen. I do wonder if the migration of university students from Scotland is different to other parts of the UK.

Molgrips

The problem with discussing Scotland with you is you don’t understand the basics and will not accept that or listen leading to you being offensive

As in the above post where you accused me of cherry picking to suit my nationistic sentiment.

If you understand you wouldn’t make the basic errors you do

Also you constantly tell folk what they are thinking and get this wrong in my case

Watching you accusing people of not listening and claiming to know what others are thinking is hilarious, molgrips.

Over the years many different people have tried to point out your ignorance and your complete lack of understanding of the parts of the UK that aren’t England or Wales and you keep coming back, making the same insulting claims and refusing to listen.

You do not know what you are talking about.

I wouldn’t try to lecture anyone from Northern Ireland because it’s incredibly complicated and it’s very far from my own frames of reference when it comes to politics. I would hope you would have the sense not to either.

However, you feel entirely comfortable lecturing Scots about our politics despite it being completely alien to you.

Now, I could be completely wrong about Wales being pretty much the same as England, just a bit more Labour-y. However, you haven’t even bothered trying to explain how it is different. All you’ve said is it’s more Labour-y which, when compared to Scotland, is not all that different at all really.

Instead of trying to explain how Wales is so different from England you’ve gone to your default with is to lecture the Scots.

Suffice to say, Brexit has happened to all of us, we are literally all in this together wether or not we voted for it, so let’s bear than in mind.

Yep, couldnt agree more.

TBH I think the worst part is that it’s affected people who aren’t in the U.K. anymore and that for all the withdrawal agreement B.S. they lost a lot of rights to work in other countries overnight.

We’ve just got rights in our host country when I think that we should have been granted an eu based citizenship but it’s not like the U.K. gov were actually going put any work in any part of Brexit.

@maccruiskeen there’s a book about that – The Road to Somewhere by David Goodhart. The main point is that there are people who are not defined by place, but by experience (the Anywheres) and people who feel defined by place (the Somewheres). On the whole, Anywheres are better educated and wealthier, Somewheres are poorer, and more likely to hold bigoted views. Probably maps pretty well onto Remain/Leave.

I’ve always maintained that instead of campaigning, the leave side should have just signed everyone up to an Erasmus+ visit to another European family for a few days.

Leaving home and family, even temporarily, gives wider experiences, a life that doesn’t centre around you, and a perspective on what we all have in common.

Now, I could be completely wrong about Wales being pretty much the same as England, just a bit more Labour-y. However, you haven’t even bothered trying to explain how it is different. All you’ve said is it’s more Labour-y which, when compared to Scotland, is not all that different at all really.

I get the impression that the reasons Welsh folk voted Brexit are/were similar to those for English folk in similar situations (agricultural areas, post-industrial places, cities and so on) – leaving aside perhaps areas with specific local issues. In other respects though, Welsh politics is more different.