TBH it’s like a Dallas shower moment, I feel I’ve come out the shower and back in the May ‘Brexit means Brexit’ phase when all the types of Brexit were being talked about like we even had a choice.

I really hope no one is advocating for a Norwegian or Swiss style deal because there are very clear borders for goods crossing between those countries and the rest of the EU. Much like the one that would be necessary between the rest of the UK and an independent Scotland that became an EU member

But less expensive than what we’ve now got.

And yes, when Scotland joins the EU it will create another land border for the EU, but it seems that the EU manages their border a bit better than the UK does, so feels comfortable for us (in Scotland) that we’ll be better protected against dodgy imports than we are at present.

Wishful thinking not confined to those who see mileage in Starmer’s position.

Wishful thinking not confined to those who see mileage in Starmer’s position.

Yes, but wishing Starmer is going to do something he has categorically ruled out is taking things a step beyond.

Edit: having gone through your examples and the grocer article it’s clear that Britain adopted the relevant bans when forced to do so by EU wide legislation with the exception of the veal crates – it was a follower not a leader.

Look, I’m not holding up the UK as some idealised paragon of virtue here, and I’m sure that in some respects it was a laggard brought kicking and screaming to the table. But this sort of broad generalisation simply doesn’t hold up. The article directly points to several more examples of the UK going beyond the legislative minimum, and while you say it was a “follower”, all you can actually deduce is that it brought in the legislation in a timely manner as indicated by the EU-wide agreement. That doesn’t make it a follower any more than any other EU member state, and in some cases the UK was definitely on the side of pushing for the EU-wide agreement. They are even now talking about a ban on live animal exports for slaughter, for example, which the EU is not considering. The UK has long been a leader in farm animal welfare specifically, and some environmental stuff like wild birds. Sure there are plenty of black spots too.

Ok, crop stubble burning too. Outlawed in the UK in 1993, long before the EU. A significant pollution hazard and also environmentally harmful in other ways.

They are even now talking about a ban on live animal exports for slaughter, for example, which the EU is not considering.

Isn’t this more to do with an export from France could be a couple of hours through a couple of countries by lorry, whereas for the UK it’s always included a ferry/ship?

Maybe, but there are already time limits in place.

If two STW pro-Europeans can find material for a spat on a bike forum I don’t think there’s much hope of governments doing better, thecaptain. 😉

environmental stuff like wild birds

Yup the British protection charity association dates from 1889 but the French one only from 1912. But those are toothless associations.

People fail to understand what has decimated the bird populations all over Europe and prefer to point the finger at a few French hunters having a marginal impact. Pollution and habitat are the problems birds face and on the former Britain is already “enjoying” the free for all void that leaving the EU has left. Whilst in the EU it was naughty now it’s just the way it is:

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/aug/04/sewage-sleuths-river-pollution-slow-dirty-death-of-welsh-and-english-rivers

I used to be an assistant area water quality officer for Welsh Water based in Aberaeron when I wasn’t working on the acid waters project, I did a fair bit of gathering up dead wildlife as evidence.

Neither bird protection association stopped the widespread use of agro-chemicals which decimated populations in both countries. It was the EU that enforced bans on some pesticides with Britain’s vote in favour.

But once out of the EU it was a matter of months before the UK reauthorised one type:

https://www.independent.co.uk/climate-change/news/uk-bee-killing-pesticide-eu-ban-b2026622.html

If two STW pro-Europeans can find material for a spat on a bike forum

When one of them is you, Ed, that’s more or less inevitable 🙂 And this isn’t a playground insult, it’s a gentle prod!

But once out of the EU it was a matter of months before the UK reauthorised one type:

Not sure if you are being deliberately disingenuous or just lazy but you make it sound like the UK completely rolled back restrictions on use, but that’s not exactly what happened. You always come across as very anti-UK. Now there’s a lot to criticise, but you always need to be honest and fair.

molgrips
Full Member

“If two STW pro-Europeans can find material for a spat on a bike forum”

When one of them is you, Ed, that’s more or less inevitable 🙂 And this isn’t a playground insult, it’s a gentle prod!
Posted 1 minute ago
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Not a gentle prod, it’s a playground insult as usual, a continuation of your continued display of hate for me, Molgrips. No smiley, because you might find it funny but I’m just weary of you being impolite and insulting towards me. It goes back to iDave when I pointed out it was yet another fad diet and you bigged him up, then everyone realised he was less than honest. You haven’t let up since, it’s a personal vendetta. By the way I’m still 65-67 kilos, where has the iDave diet left you?

A personal attack whilst the actual protagonists are exchanging views in a civil manner.

You aren’t a forum moderator as far as I’m aware but have a habit of telling people what to do in an antagonistic manner. If you think there’s a problem with behaviour on the forum, report it, but first consider how much you are contributing to it yourself.

Join in with our debate here if you wish but please leave out the personal attacks unrelated to the subject. Note the “please”, that’s a request which is not the same as one of your orders.

it’s a gentle prod!

Like Ian Paisley was a gentle prod?

@edukator I agree shit has gone south since Brexit but it’s not exactly a secret that we did do our bit and then some in certain aspects already discussed. You’re totally right about water quality though, blue flags seemed to be the wake up call that swimming amongst sewage wasn’t actually acceptable.

EDIT: seriously, get over your victim complex. I came on trying to be nice but it seems you’re pulling the same shit on Molgrips as you do on me. Nobody is falling for it.

I see you’ve stealth edited to address the criticism of having nothing to say about the actual subject, Molgrips.

These aren’t nice tactics.

As for the contents of your edit, if I’ve made incorrect statements then feel free to quote them with links to evidence refuting them. That’s what thecaptain has done quite effectively on some points..

I’m just weary of you being impolite and insulting towards me.

Well, I’m very very weary of the way you turn everything into an absolute dick waving contest. This isn’t a playground insult, it’s a critique on the way you engage on here. This is less friendly, because you made it so. The way you engage is problematic and you need to think about that – that’s why I made that prod, and it was relevant to the point you made about bickering.

These aren’t nice tactics.

I don’t do ‘tactics’. I edit my posts to make them clearer or add stuff.

I’ll say no more about it so don’t bother replying.

You’ve also selectivley quoted, Molgrips, distorting what I said. Here’s the longer quote:

It was the EU that enforced bans on some pesticides with Britain’s vote in favour.

But once out of the EU it was a matter of months before the UK reauthorised one type:

As both Squirrelking and thecaptain have correctly pointed out the UK was among the countries voting in favour of some progressive legislation while other EU countires dragged their heels. I was kinda hoping someone would brings up France’s reluctance to ban glyphosate to counter my claims but in the end it’s me.

Back when the talk is about Brexit, goodnight all.

I was kinda hoping someone would brings up France’s reluctance to ban glyphosate to counter my claims but in the end it’s me

Why?

So you basically went out your way to provoke an argument, basically told thecaptain that the perfectly valid retorts to your original assertion were shite and now admit you hoped that someone would use some specific legislation that a vanishingly small number of us may have a pssing knowledge of?

Living up to your old moniker there.

At least that’s cleared that up once and for all, just a troll with a “victim complex”, certainly explains why you hang about if everyone is so mean. Not that we don’t notice the blatant hypocrisy designed to antagonise. Do us all a favour eh? **** off.

squirrelking
Free Member

I was kinda hoping someone would brings up France’s reluctance to ban glyphosate to counter my claims but in the end it’s me

Why?

So you basically went out your way to provoke an argument, basically told thecaptain that the perfectly valid retorts to your original assertion were shite and now admit you hoped that someone would use some specific legislation that a vanishingly small number of us may have a pssing knowledge of?

Living up to your old moniker there.

At least that’s cleared that up once and for all, just a troll with a victim complex, certainly explains why you habg about if everyone is so mean. Not that we don’t notice the blatant hypocrisy designed to antagonise. Do us all a favour eh? **** off.
Posted 22 seconds ago
Reply | Report

———————————–

If two STW pro-Europeans can find material for a spat on a bike forum I don’t think there’s much hope of governments doing better, thecaptain.

TBH I think it was more a matter of emphasis than a major disagreement. UK has certainly been a laggard and hindrance in some respects, but a leader in others. OTOH I think it’s likely that all countries could be described in similar way. They certainly can’t all be leading on everything, if everyone’s in front there’s no-one to be in front of!

Right, got to go up to the loo to catch up on the thread!

Username checks out 😬

^^ Yep!😁

Well, I’m sort of caught up on the thread but still not entirely sure of what’s going on.

Much like most of my life in fairness though.

I think it was UK bad, EU good.

It started as Starmer bad for making claims about high standards that failed a fact check. thecaptain and I explored one aspect – animal, farm, environment. Fancy an exploration of any others? How about “high standards” in financial services and among politicians for example:

https://www.shearman.com/en/key-issues/future-of-financial-services-regulation-in-the-uk

I’m sure you can all work out what:

It can remove unnecessary red tape and enhance legal and regulatory predictability so as to allow innovation to flourish.

really means without me providing a translation.

The Brexit promise of Singapore-on-Thames looks like one of the very few Brexit promises to be fulfilled favouring money laundering, capital flight, corruption… . Ask Michelle Mone for help if you realy don’t understand. She’s still free whilst the equally dishonest EU parliamentarians were arrested and face charges.

Yup EU financial services regulation and laws good, UK bad, Molgrips, feel free to counter that assertion with real examples to prove your point.

Have we done this yet? Who would have thought that the tories could, however imperfectly, replace the horror that is the EU CAP policy with something that looks a little modern and forward thinking?

The UK's new farm subsidy systems are the one genuine benefit of Brexit – and, bizarrely, the one that no major Leave politician would discuss before the vote. If the UK gets this right, they could be used as a template for reform across the EU, whose system is a totaI disaster.

— George Monbiot (@GeorgeMonbiot) January 26, 2023

Sure, but perhaps a little early to bring out the bunting. We don’t know what it will cost, nor what it will achieve, yet.

Good old bad old George. 🙂

I like the approach, rewarding good practice. I’m watching with interest.

I’ve not looked at what is being proposed yet but the moonbat being in favour is a black mark.

It favours large scale landowners and does little for upland/hill farmers.
Would be interesting to get a view from welsfarmer of this parish.
It’s likely there will be an article about this in Private Eye soon in their ‘agri business’ feature as they’ve been following the farm subsidy saga for many years.
Much better analysis than anything offered up by Monbiot.

That farming scheme, based on what I’ve read I bet it’ll be a PITA for farmers to both claim and then actually get their cash – and rather than look at the scheme, wait until the result of the scheme occurs – only then will we know whether it’s good/bad/indifferent for both outcome AND cash-paid.

Yup EU financial services regulation and laws good, UK bad, Molgrips, feel free to counter that assertion with real examples to prove your point.

You’re assuming I don’t agree. I’m a remainer remember, for more or less that exact reason.

It favours large scale landowners and does little for upland/hill farmers.

Probably a result of the hunting and shooting lobby. The last thing they want is the govt paying landowners to rewild moors and mountains.

Not ready to welcome something that still hasn’t happened. Yes, CAP is slow to reform, but people forget how much the implementation was down to member states. Plenty of other countries managed far more successfully to weight it towards actual farmers, especially smaller ones, rather than land owners and international agribusiness. I don’t expect that to happen here just because our government can change things “quicker” on its own (this one has already been six years in the making, and is no where near being tested).

Talking about things that haven’t happened yet… a good short list in this article…

There is now a growing consensus in Britain that Brexit has been a costly mistake. But while businesses demand measures to improve on Boris Johnson's bad deal, the real challenge is to stop the situation getting worse. My latest. https://t.co/czUyA4245w

— Simon Nixon (@Simon_Nixon) January 26, 2023

Blimey an honest appraisal of the consequences of Brexit from a tory MP

Tha Conservative is dishonest because he peddles the myth a better deal is possible without outlining the concessions his is prepared to make to get it.

As Barnier noted recently, the EU has forgotten Brexit. It’s finished, we’ve got over it, profited from it even. No need to change anything unless those pesky Brits vote their dumping laws, that’ll need retaliation.

I’m sure many EU leaders are loving the comparison with the UK at present, can’t change that.

How about a nice piece of camembert gromitt ?

Just because the Brexit benefits keep coming…

My brother’s company (based in Czechia) wants to buy a particularly unique and extremely expensive specialist part from the UK. The company he’s buying from aren’t particularly used to exporting into Europe at the moment and so asked him to find out what they need. This is what happens when you try to research the topic from Europe:

At least Rees-Mogg will be proud of his accomplishments in actively shutting off the UK from the rest of the world.

F*** me. They really don’t think there is a need for foreign companies to access UK export information? Are they really this stupid?

You couldn’t make this crap u<span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>p.</span>

When meeting people for the first time and they ask where I’m from, I tell them Essex, England, but with the caveat that I’ve had nothing to do with the island for the past 15 years and am essentially German/European because the UK is a **** joke.

Are they really this stupid?

You need to ask? Just look at what they’ve done over the last 6 years. It goes way way beyond stupid! Stupid doesn’t even begin to describe it

its going to get so much worse too in the hands of these Brexiteer morons. they’ve tipped this country into an economic death spiral.

This country is going to be left so far behind, wallowing in its neo-colonial, delusional fantasy world as the 21st century sails past them. An irrelevance. A backwater

Its absolutely tragic. Well… it certainly will be for our kids

i hope the shit-thick racists who voted for this self-destructive bollocks are proud of themselves as they wage their little flags

The ****ing morons!

End-of-day plug for the column – on Brexit Britain in an economic cul-de-sac, revving in neutral and honking the horn for sovereignty. https://t.co/LTYuMtrUZu

— Rafael Behr (@rafaelbehr) February 8, 2023

‘its going to get so much worse too in the hands of these Brexiteer morons. they’ve tipped this country into an economic death spiral.’

TBH they are like some parasitic vampires, they’ll still be feeding off it regardless of how bad it gets for the bottom they are happily sitting at the top quite happy to actually achieve nothing.

It’s worth looking out for Heseltines latest speech it’s interesting as he said they’d been thru the whole rules holding us back years ago and found nowt and he was a bit scathing about Rees Mogg.

Anyway in other musings I wonder if they will rename BritishVolt to AussieVolt although i do wonder what they bought other than some nicely rendered gigafactory pictures.