A significant number of the Army HGV drivers they are mobilising are Reservists, so guess what jobs they normally do? Mind you, 2,000 drivers is barely going to fill the gap created by 100,000 vacancies – expect they’ll be put on higher priority stuff like NHS and the supermarket shelves remain empty.

I’m finding it interesting how various businesses are balancing on the fence about Brexit-induced problems so as to stay on the right side of suspect (ex-?) Brexit-supporting customers. Any interesting examples?

Product not distributed (or even importable) in UK anymore – they’ve stopped making it
Lack of staff available to hire – lazy buggers still on furlough
Product was £40 now £80 – covid, transport costs, material shortage (only part of the story)
“Postage” costs more than actual product – blame couriers, “postage” actually includes duty and processing fee
Supplier won’t ship to UK or has new/increased minimum order size – blame supplier with no reason given
Product is several thousand £ more expensive – it has to comply with new EU laws so manufacturer had to upgrade it and they only make the new compliant version now

^^^

Basically blame everything, anything other than the genius of Brexit.

Criticising Brexit is pretty much the only thing that will lose you your job if you are a minister. The reason for this is that their only reason for being in power is Brexit. The monumental con job they sold to bigots. It is the one thing that is sacred. The rest if it? It can all go hang as far as these crooks are concerned.

A significant number of the Army HGV drivers they are mobilising are Reservists, so guess what jobs they normally do?

So how does that work? You’re one of the precious few supermarket delivery HGV drivers and you get mobilised, are you obliged to drop your tried and tested, theoretically far more efficient just-in-time logistics system to ‘help out’ in whatever the Army version is?

I wonder if this will accelerate or decelerate the push for that technology?

Near me there’s a farm that grows various kinds of veg – spring onions, some herbs, greens etc. The planting and harvesting used to be done by gangs of workers who arrived in minibuses. Recently they’ve been replaced by lots of shiny new machines. So we now have fewer jobs overall, we’ve lost tax revenue, and since there are no British manufacturers of those machines we’ve sent loads of capital out of the country. Sounds like a Brexit win.

So how does that work? You’re one of the precious few supermarket delivery HGV drivers and you get mobilised, are you obliged to drop your tried and tested, theoretically far more efficient just-in-time logistics system to ‘help out’ in whatever the Army version is?

That seems improbable, I don’t think the major transport companies would accept it. I’m sure the government will have a good bash at **** it up however.

The process may have changed, but…

The mobilisation is compulsory (and time limited+), but the reservist’s employer has the right to challenge the mobilisation based on whether the employee is essential. So, for example in this case, Tesco as an employer would receive the paperwork and appeal against it (and likely win) based on their employed HGV drivers being essential to their operation.

If you were self-employed/Ltd company, then you could also appeal against it as your Army wage would likely be less than your earnings as a private individual*, although the Army may well top that up to your declared salary as part of the mobilisation**.

+ I think this is two month, but can be extended
* Unless you muck about with your earnings to avoid tax (IR35 for example)
** Unless you are someone like a lawyer or doctor, in which case there is a cap I think

The planting and harvesting used to be done by gangs of workers who arrived in minibuses. Recently they’ve been replaced by lots of shiny new machines. So we now have fewer jobs overall, we’ve lost tax revenue, and since there are no British manufacturers of those machines we’ve sent loads of capital out of the country. Sounds like a Brexit win.

I think that sort of automation would happen Brexit or not, Brexit may have accelerated it but remaining would not have prevented. Automation in agriculture is just a thing and has been going on longer than anyone has been alive and I’ve seen multiple examples on friends and families farms since childhood of tasks being mechanised/automated.

Just for clarity, I think Brexit is a crock of crap.

There was a concerted effort by the Army RLC to engage with big logistics companies like TNT, DHL, plus some of the supermarkets to encourage their drivers to become Reservists. This meant they would be ‘available’ in low demand times like the summer to do their training / meet their Reservist commitments. Of course, this didn’t anticipate that they’d both need them at the same time.
A big problem is that the Government and particularly the MoD doesn’t really understand the concept of mutual benefits when working with employers – they only see things through their own lens, it was always “we say, you do”.

A significant number of the Army HGV drivers they are mobilising are Reservists, so guess what jobs they normally do?

I recently helped set up a mobile COVID vaccine clinic with the help of the Army. They were a mix of reservists and regular, and came from all sorts, some were infantry who were very much the “lift that” “move this” backbone, some were reservist docs who were on a busman’s holiday from their normal GP work (which may or may not have been vaccinating folks) some were logistics guys. They were all very “can do” great to be around, and were keen to get on with the task in hand.

Recently they’ve been replaced by lots of shiny new machines. So we now have fewer jobs overall

I don’t like the idea of keeping poorly paid poorly skilled jobs just so that someone poor sod can do them. Picking fruit is horrible work. If it’s done by machines, those people will then end up doing something else. The trick is to make sure the job they now get is better than picking fruit. If everyone automates everything at once then yes, there’ll be a problem, but history (of which there is a lot in this area) shows this not to be the case.

Automating to save money and kicking skilled people out is a bad thing. Automating because there are no unemployed people desperate enough to do a shitty job is not, I don’t think.

Unless you like fine wine in which case you’ know that hand picked grapes get to the press with less unripe or rotting fruit, all the juice, less folliage, fewer snails… . But I agrre with the ethics of your post, Molgrips. 🙂

I loved picking fruit when younger. As did my parents. And grandparents. Better than any summer office or factory job IME. Job, mind, not a career. It was all seasonal work. A ‘career’ in fruit picking is to graduate to cider-making/fruit-farming etc.

I hated picking fruit.

those people will then end up doing something else

… somewhere else.

The main reason UK workers have been characterised as unproductive is due to the lack of automation. Freely available cheap workforce has enabled that.

Automation and increased mechanisation in the areas of agriculture that most need and use seasonal workers has been ongoing for decades. That’s why you no longer see full height hop poles and orchards much any more. You need to look to other sectors for a lack of investment in automation.

Brexshit – now getting in the way of DH racing.

https://www.facebook.com/324748354280569/posts/4659497757472252/

Why does he need a visa to visit Maribor / Slovenia? The FCO website says one isn’t required:

“ you can travel to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period without a visa. This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training.”

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/slovenia/entry-requirements

If he’s already spent 90+ days that’s probably the reason.

Or he’s going there for work?

Note #1 and #3 and the use of “business meetings” vs “to work”, he’s working and my understanding is that if you’re working you need a Schengen Visa.

And these are the requirements:
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/business-schengen-visa/

Something else folk didn’t understand, and something that gives EU27 passport holders with UK settled status a positive advantage over UK passport holders for jobs requiring travel. For nearly 20 years I had jobs like this, and if I was in one of those jobs now and recruiting, I wouldn’t be picking Brits.

The rules for travelling or working in European countries changed on 1 January 2021:

#1
you can travel to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period without a visa. This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training.

#2
if you are travelling to Slovenia and other Schengen countries without a visa, make sure your whole visit is within the 90-day limit. Visits to Schengen countries within the previous 180 days before you travel count towards your 90 days.

#3
to stay longer, to work or study, for business travel or for other reasons, you will need to meet the Slovenian government’s entry requirements. Check with the Slovene Embassy what type of visa and/or work permit, you may need

A perfect example of the slow burn of Brexit. What was once easy is now, not complicated, but unclear, “sorry, sir what you need is a Form 13A – desk upstairs on your right, they only work between 13:13 and 14:27 when the moon is waxing gibbous though. Might also need a 15UC but we won’t know until your 13A is done”. Multiply x infinity for businesses and business travellers across the country.

Brexit, such a dumb **** idea, always was, always will be. And it is being executed by complete **** just for good measure.

These kinda of visa rules are an absolute ball-ache for me as it’s never clear whether or not I’m there for a business meeting or to do work.

“Well after having had this discussion I recommend you do X”
“Can you give us some information in how to do that in our situation?”
“Ah, no, because if I have to look at your system and give you specific instructions that then constitutes work in my part and I didn’t tick that box on the visa form cos it would have taken me three weeks to hear back and I only knew about this two days ago, sorry.”

**** sake.

Of course that’s another significant benefit of remote engagements since none of that applies. Which makes it all the more absurd, the fact I CAN do it from here but I can’t if I go to visit them.

These kinda of visa rules are an absolute ball-ache for me as it’s never clear whether or not I’m there for a business meeting or to do work.

For the avoidance of doubt, are you being paid to be there?

No different when I worked elsewhere across the world, if ever asked on a form or at customs/entry I always said who I worked for, and what I was doing. Lying just isn’t worth it IMO.

But this is why the likes of Thatcher embraced the Single Market & Customs Union, as she/they could see the benefits to business and to the UK – for example, make it the best place to set up a European ‘hub’ and global businesses will base themselves here. Bringing in investments and quality & well-paid jobs with both these businesses and in the wider service sector.

All f**ked up by the Brexit w**kers.

I’m finding it interesting how various businesses are balancing on the fence about Brexit-induced problems so as to stay on the right side of suspect (ex-?) Brexit-supporting customers. Any interesting examples?

I’ve seen anti-PRC Brexit supporting customers blaming everything but Brexit for a lack of range in their favourite shop. A shop that relied on volume trade of Chinese made electronics to sell said goods very cheap, which is apparently still viable in the EU. A shop whose very business model within the UK was essentially nobbled by Brexit. In terms of cognitive dissonance, I’m not sure whether there was more going on with those customers when they bought stuff from the shop before or whether there is more now that they can no longer doing so.

For the avoidance of doubt, are you being paid to be there?

Yes, but you can attend ‘business meetings’ often, even if you’re being paid. The problem is differentiating between doing a job and a business meeting. What is ‘business’ anyway?

It’s not a question of lying, it’s a question of what even is the right thing to put? And there’s also the added pressure of not actually being able to attend said meeting, because often the ‘business meeting’ doesn’t require a visa so you can go to the meeting the same week; whereas the working one does and it takes 10 days etc.

Brexit really is a ****ing stupid idea.

Brexit, such a dumb **** idea, always was, always will be. And it is being executed by complete **** just for good measure.

Amen.

Anyone who was unsure of all of the ramifications (let’s say ‘everyone’ as no one could forsee it all), should have just taken a step back and asked themselves the following questions:

Does walking away from a big club with rules that have evolved to serve the whole better than the parts sound like a good idea?

Can the UK ‘go it alone’?

Even if the UK can ‘go it alone’, is it desirable to do so?

The answers are three ‘nos’.

That’s all it should have taken most people to realise it was a **** stupid idea. But, no, put a Union Jack on a Facebook ad with a picture of some swarthy looking chaps and words like ‘swamped’ and the thickos would cut off their own arm if you told them to.

🇬🇧🍆💦🇬🇧

Yes, but you can attend ‘business meetings’ often, even if you’re being paid. The problem is differentiating between doing a job and a business meeting. What is ‘business’ anyway?

It’s not a question of lying, it’s a question of what even is the right thing to put? And there’s also the added pressure of not actually being able to attend said meeting, because often the ‘business meeting’ doesn’t require a visa so you can go to the meeting the same week; whereas the working one does and it takes 10 days etc.

Clear as mud 🙂

“However, even if allowed to enter and stay visa-free they might nonetheless need a work permit and temporary residence for the purpose of employment. For short-term business negotiation meetings the 90-day requirement stated above (i.e. business trip, etc.), work permit is not required.”

https://www.mondaq.com/work-visas/1022818/work-residence-and-business-travel-in-slovakia-for-uk-nationals-from-1-january-2021-what-has-changed

It does seem that going to a race, even as a paid professional rider, needn’t consist of anything more than the attendance at a sports event plus some business meetings, so would not require a visa. Being paid for either of those activities doesn’t appear to be relevant.

Vlogging, taking part in promotional activities for sponsors etc., that would be a grey area though.

cheddarchallenged
Full Member
Why does he need a visa to visit Maribor / Slovenia? The FCO website says one isn’t required:

“ you can travel to countries in the Schengen area for up to 90 days in any 180-day period without a visa. This applies if you travel as a tourist, to visit family or friends, to attend business meetings, cultural or sports events, or for short-term studies or training.”

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/slovenia/entry-requirements

If he’s already spent 90+ days that’s probably the reason.

Nope.

This passage from his post should make it pretty clear that he knew what he needed to apply for and had done so in plenty of time. It is just that the existing structures cannot cope with the additional bureaucracy (irony of ironies).

should have been straight forward but with the embassy having never had to do one before meaning 3 applications + 2 different work permits and working on it since the last race it’s still not come through in time

This is down to the cretinous stupidity of imposing more bureaucracy on ourselves because too many people in the UK don’t like ‘foreigners’.

Any attempt to dress it up otherwise is risible.

Well must be time to ask if any brexies have ‘actually’ done something that us being in the EU previously prevented them from doing 🙂

They’ve all been prevented from doing so by all the extra red tape.

Ask again next summer.

I believe the issue is Jamie was staying in France to train / save another isolation by returning.

I think it’s now over 90 days he had done.

Clearly triggered some extra forms… And yes they were in on time, and correct, just the new systems don’t work well…

The day of reckoning approaches

Finger-lickin' scarce: those supply shortages are getting serious.https://t.co/WqIIgjOy6M

— Douglas Fraser✒️🎥🎙 (@BBCDouglasF) August 12, 2021

The day of reckoning approaches

You would have thought so, but the sheer level of stupidity, bone headed ignorance and macho ‘pride’ in the average Brexiteer makes me think otherwise.

The Torygraph will tell the golf club Brexiteers that it is dirty foreigners trying to starve us out.

The Fail will tell the chavs that we should just invade somewhere to sort it.

Stick a Union Jack on it and a cartoon of a shifty-looking swarthy chap nearby and job’s a good ‘un.

Brexit has now got me directly in the same way as it’s hit many others, and will no doubt be about to hit many more.

I have all my big prints printed on high quality photographic paper, 1.5 metre wide rolls, which is all made in Germany.

There is presently none in the country. None. Absolutely nothing. It’s all sat in containers back in Germany. It won’t be getting here any time soon

So I’ve loads of commissions all approved and ready to print, but I can’t get them printed as there’s no stock. And my printer has got all his expensive printers sat idle as he’s got nothing to print onto. He’s been told he won’t be getting any soon so is desperately looking for alternative supplies. We did some sample prints on alternative stock. They were shit! Binned the lot.

We just need our usual supply of high quality German made printing paper. We won’t be getting any anytime soon

This was all predicted by the industry but airily dismissed by people who know **** all about the industry. Apparently you just have to believe, or something
Taking back control eh? ****ing brilliant! 🙄

mrmo
Free Member

I would surprised if one driver gets used. How much was spent on the publicity stunt that was the Nightingale Hospitals.

OK so, usually I’m totally up for kicking the government but nightingales were a very good idea, and yes the big ones barely got used but that is good. They were created as a desperate, last-ditch alternative to having people dying in hospital car parks and we were so, so close to needing them, we dodged overflowing hospitals by days. You’re basically complaining about the fact that they built some lifeboats, and wasted them by not quite sinking.

But in this other case with the HGV drivers, yes, it’s almost certainly bullshit. And if it does come about, it’ll probably end up as a way of allowing employers to avoid paying better wages or making smarter use of drivers, rather than increasing the amount of lettuces in tesco.

Del
Full Member

The main reason UK workers have been characterised as unproductive is due to the lack of automation.

TBF the main reason UK workers have been characterised as unproductive, is right wing arseholes whose agenda it fits nicely with. But, the single biggest reason they can do that, is that economist’s measures of productivity don’t actually measure worker productivity in any meaningful way, they’re so abstract as to be pretty much worthless for that purpose. They don’t deal adequately with the way that low paid workers empower higher paid workers to be productive for example, or the different ways capital and labour are valued.

(take it to the extremes- a slave on a plantation earns nothing, in fact he consumes food and requires shelter and even has to be bought! Totally unproductive! But a plantation owner who does no work, productive because he owns slaves and land and gets the profit. By the sheer force of economics he is as productive as 100 men and he keeps those workshy unproductive 100 alive)

And none of it takes into account modern international economic bullshit, such as exporting your profits so that Amazon’s accountants in Luxembourg each “produce” £8.4m euros per year, while the UK drivers and warehousers all have their productivity reduced by the equal opposite amount. If it were true, Amazon would stop bothering selling stuff entirely and would focus on the much more productive business of Having Lots Of Accountants. But their job is effectively to steal productivity from others and to make people and countries poorer, they produce nothing except the illusion of productivity and unproductivity.

I mean in short, pretty much everything to do with economists’ definitions and measurements of productivity are horseshit. And it’s not a conspiracy, real productivity is hard to measure, the numbers that are output are horseshit but they’re still usable for some purposes (these days, they’re very useful for gauging which countries are stealing the most productivity, for example) It’s just that they can be twisted and abused and massively are because some people want people to think that UK people are lazy.

nightingales were a very good idea,

I am far from convinced as there were no staff for them. already short of staff in the NHS – where were the staff coming from for the nightingales? You need approx one full time nurse per bed and all the ancillary services

Those short comings in providing care would still have been true if those that would have ended up in the nightingales had been left crammed into existing hospitals instead, but with greater chance of infection for others.

Wrong thread?

No because of duplication of services and that hospitals can and did reduce other admissions and add extra beds

i suspect actually they were intended to be dying rooms – no medical treatment and minimal care – there simply was not the staff to do anything else.