• This topic has 6,825 replies, 340 voices, and was last updated 2 hours ago by igm.
Viewing 40 posts - 6,401 through 6,440 (of 6,826 total)
  • Brexit 2020+
  • Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.
    Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.

    Because food is just like consumer electronics.

    But again, who will we develop frictionless trade with akin to the Customs Union and Single Market? All other countries will offer us is lower and/or fewer tariffs… which is far from the same thing… and is likely to be offered to the EU as well.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    The idea that we should be celebrating part of the UK being able to get food from other parts of the UK as some sort of challenge completed is, frankly, offensive.

    Disclaimer – born and brought up in NI. Family still there thoroughly unimpressed right now.

    Jeffery Donaldson, has been on the radio a few times about this, he says it goes against the terms of the GFA. The GFA was to be upheld at all costs in the brexit negotiations. The DUP have backed themselves into a very tight corner, they are right to complain and yet at the same time can’t. Unionism is going to have a very hard time coming back from this one.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.

    Because the disparity in labour prices between here and China is so great. That works well for consumer electronics. Less so for food.

    Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.

    How do you think that is going to work? Do you think it’s a good idea to ship food from all over the world instead of just across the channel? Do you approve of Argentinian or US beef production standards? Do you want antibiotics in your beef?

    Also, the trade barriers go both ways. We produced excess of food to sell to the EU, because they were nearby and they could afford to pay our prices. Are we going to sell to Africa or the USA now? Do you think the US farming lobby will open the doors to UK imports? Is our stuff even competitively priced there?

    So many questions.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    Do you approve of Argentinian or US beef production standards? Do you want antibiotics in your beef?

    When people mention lowering food standards I always think of horse meat for some reason.

    Is the issue (with US beef) actually with antibiotics in the beef, ie. insufficient withdrawal period before slaughter (leading to issues with human health) or with overuse leading to resistance?

    The first would impact our consumption, the second will impact US production.

    Premier Icon jp-t853
    Free Member

    Schenker have joined the list of haulage companies who have stopped delivering to the UK at a groupage level (more than one supplier per truck), one company can have all the correct paperwork but another doesn’t so nothing comes through.

    Schenker full of product

    Most of the other big names are not far behind I hear.

    In our Brexit planning we opted for dedicated trucks which is generally going ok apart from a five hour delay in UK customs from midnight to 5am this morning for one of our trucks, unfortunately the UK customs people are quite new to this and thought the paperwork was wrong when it wasn’t. Dedicated trucks adds cost of course, we are lucky that we can prioritise continued supply over profits. The main issue seems to be that most companies are exporting ok from the EU but they do not have the correct import in to the UK paperwork in place such as power of attorney forms for customs agents. It will improve but it is still a big mess.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    Is the issue (with US beef) actually with antibiotics in the beef, ie. insufficient withdrawal period before slaughter (leading to issues with human health) or with overuse leading to resistance?

    Well there are a few problems with US beef production, as I understand them – correct me if I’m wrong:

    1) They dose them with an antibiotic because it increases muscle growth and hence meat yield. But it’s a medically useful drug, and because US beef consumers are all exposed to it all the time it is breeding antibiotic resistance. This is banned in the EU.

    2) They also use growth hormones a lot, which end up in the meat. This is probably bad for us. Also banned in EU.

    3) Most beef is raised on feed lots which means they are kept in a shed or in a small muddy field packed in, and fed corn. This means the meat is less healthy (less Omega 3 IIRC), it’s bad for the environment because it produces a lot more methane, and it uses a food crop. The US buys corn from Mexico where it is a staple human crop. US farmers can pay a higher price, and due to NAFTA they can’t place export tariffs on it, so this pushes the prices up for Mexicans who need to eat it themselves (someone correct me if this has changed in recent years). UK farmers also use feed of course but much more of our cattle is grazed on grass, on land that may not be suitable for crop growing.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    On Points 1 and 2. I can only assume then that the human health issue is with withdrawal periods before slaughter, ie. how long between the last dose is given until it is slaughtered for sale. Incorrect dosing or not adhering to these periods would produce contaminated beef. If withdrawal periods and dosing are observed as they obviously are here, there is no real (consumption related) human health risk.

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    It’s when, not if, isn’t it.

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    That was the whole point of Brexit, though.

    Let’s get everyone to talk about fish while we tear up workers rights, food standards and environmental controls

    Premier Icon igm
    Full Member

    Not sure how my house ended up crammed with chinese and japanese stuff then.

    Some stuff will be, mainly due to labour costs and more recently automation, but do check the “made in” labels. Just because it says Panasonic doesn’t mean it was made in Japan. A mate of mine used to work for them in East Kilbride engineering TVs (though to be fair that may be shut now).

    Also do check your house. Some things (eg electronics) can be and are traded globally. Typically these are, long lived and expensive relative to transport cost. If they are high volume and sell into many markets so much the better. Furniture not so much, food less so and fresh food even less so. You’ll be surprised how little of your spend goes to China and Japan – though cyclist might be an outlier here.

    However the government sound like they’re going to sort the UK’s labour cost issue, so there’s some Brexit good news.

    Premier Icon batfink
    Full Member

    However the government sound like they’re going to sort the UK’s labour cost issue, so there’s some Brexit good news.

    Not sure if that’s sarcasm?

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.

    only if we drop our food safety standards to accept american fake foods and dangerous foods which then contaminates the UKs food supply meaning no exports to the EU

    Have you not been reading the papers on the increase in costs on imports as a result of brexit? We have no trade deals with anyone else that reduce costs, regulation and thus prices.

    Please explain the reasoning and mechanisms behind this bizzare claim

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    On Points 1 and 2. I can only assume then that the human health issue is with withdrawal periods before slaughter, ie. how long between the last dose is given until it is slaughtered for sale. Incorrect dosing or not adhering to these periods would produce contaminated beef. If withdrawal periods and dosing are observed as they obviously are here, there is no real (consumption related) human health risk.

    NOpe – antibiotic use in meat breeds resistant bugs

    antibiotic residues linger a long time

    Hormone laden beef risk heath directly

    Animal welfare standards are lower

    Premier Icon igm
    Full Member

    batfink – pretty much. Might be better described as black humour, but sarcasm is good enough

    Premier Icon batfink
    Full Member

    ^ just checking! I believe we are still waiting for somebody to identify an actual, real world advantage of brexit

    Premier Icon pondo
    Full Member

    FT reporting plans to tear up EU workers rights put the 48 hour week at risk – as the excellent @RussInCheshire observes on Twitter, if only 16 or 17 million people had warned us.

    Premier Icon dudeofdoom
    Full Member

    Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.

    Well you’re outside the EU and have been for 2 weeks and is it then ?

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    only if we drop our food safety standards to accept american fake foods and dangerous foods which then contaminates the UKs food supply meaning no exports to the EU

    Has everyone forgotten the horse meat scandal?

    Why I mention that is, US food may have lower welfare standards, but I think the idea of the food quality (risk to human health) actually being worse may be quite overstated, unless someone can point me to some definitive study?

    TJ you came back to me with a blank “nope” on my statement about withdrawal periods. These are there so that residual levels of medicines in the animal can be eliminated in the liver. Is there evidence that these are not adhered to in the US?

    Premier Icon 5thElefant
    Free Member

    Well you’re outside the EU and have been for 2 weeks and is it then ?

    I don’t doubt it’ll be 10 years until benefits settle in and 20 years until we’ll know if brexit was a good idea. Maybe 40 years to be sure.

    Premier Icon intheborders
    Free Member

    Food will certainly be cheaper from outside the EU, same as everything else.

    The only food that’s cheaper elsewhere in the developed world is crap food.

    The cost of food in a country is by an large linked to the cost of running a business in that country – the only way it’ll be cheaper is if the country drastically reduces it’s internal costs (YOU working harder for less) or aims to be less ‘developed’ (which tbh is the plan for the Cons).

    And 5thElephant, you as per every other Brexshi**er never did answer my question of which countries you think we’ll trade with now (as per your post).

    Premier Icon ransos
    Free Member

    For those who haven’t visited a US supermarket in the last few years, you might be surprised at just how much more expensive the food is than here.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    For those who haven’t visited a US supermarket in the last few years, you might be surprised at just how much more expensive the food is than here.

    This is why I wonder about this idea that the quality for consumer is much worse?

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    US supermarket “cheese” products.. mmmm….

    Premier Icon oldbloke
    Free Member

    I think the idea of the food quality (risk to human health) actually being worse may be quite overstated, unless someone can point me to some definitive study?

    Don’t have the links to hand, but there are contaminants allowed in US food not allowed here and suggestions of materially higher food poisoning risks in US (getting apples vs apples data though is hard).

    Premier Icon sgn23
    Free Member

    Has everyone forgotten the horse meat scandal?

    Why I mention that is, US food may have lower welfare standards, but I think the idea of the food quality (risk to human health) actually being worse may be quite overstated, unless someone can point me to some definitive study?

    Horse meat was an issue with food labelling, not food safety.

    The much higher occurrence of food poisoning in the US indicates an increased risk to human health (you can do your own Googling on this point)

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    On Points 1 and 2. I can only assume…

    Don’t assume. Research, then cite. There’s a lot written about this.

    Has everyone forgotten the horse meat scandal?

    No. But it was discovered, and it was a scandal. It was discovered because we were checking and it was a scandal because it contravened our standards. Have a read about US food standards and things like incidence of campylobacter and other types of food poisoning.

    Re US superkarkets – prices are much higher than they are here, even in small town Mid West where we usually go, where wages are low and other costs of living are much lower. They are also a lot more variable tha they are here. And the quality in offer for the money is poor.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    So I looked up the campylobacter incidence, CDC (US) claim 20 in 100000 people infected per year, england and wales was between 90 and 114 between 2008 and 2017.

    So reporting rates differ.

    Premier Icon reluctantjumper
    Full Member

    Has everyone forgotten the horse meat scandal?

    No. But it was discovered, and it was a scandal. It was discovered because we were checking and it was a scandal because it contravened our standards. Have a read about US food standards and things like incidence of campylobacter and other types of food poisoning.

    It also wasn’t about the quality of the meat, it was about the source not being identified correctly which could lead to a drop in quality. Horse meat is perfectly acceptable as a food source as long as it’s produced correctly, it’s actually a rather nice meat. The US standards for food are well below what we are used to so moving to allow them in will be a backwards step for us.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    I don’t doubt it’ll be 10 years until benefits settle in and 20 years until we’ll know if brexit was a good idea. Maybe 40 years to be sure.

    10 years of hardship?

    Why on earth would you want to push that on the UK?

    I’ll give as much credence to your brexit guff as I did to your trump election fraud conspiracy nonsense

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    @dougiedogg now look up allowed levels of things like bugs or mouse droppings etc in US food.

    Premier Icon binners
    Full Member

    If I was one of those Scottish fishermen or fish processors watching this, I’d presently be trying to source Semtex. If you wanted to get a group of people you’ve already betrayed up to a level of boiling, revolutionary apoplexy, you’d be hard-pushed to do better than this

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    Has everyone forgotten the horse meat scandal?

    https://www.techtimes.com/articles/79871/20150828/dna-testing-shows-some-ground-meat-sold-in-us-contains-horse-meat.htm

    Actually the EU tightening up after the 2013 scandal is one of the problems blocking a US trade deal, labeling is a huge issue & American consumers are very poorly served, I’ve no doubt it will happen though

    Just as we can expect to lose labour protections

    If anyone is surprised by any of this I have some magic beans to sell you…

    Premier Icon BaronVonP7
    Free Member

    I don’t doubt it’ll be 10 years until benefits settle in and 20 years until we’ll know if brexit was a good idea. Maybe 40 years to be sure.

    Quite the sacrifice from a lot of Brexit voters – what with them going to be dead before they will see any (unicorn) benefits of Brexit.

    Premier Icon dougiedogg
    Free Member

    @dougiedogg now look up allowed levels of things like bugs or mouse droppings etc in US food.

    The US list seems quite transparent FWIW https://www.fda.gov/food/ingredients-additives-gras-packaging-guidance-documents-regulatory-information/food-defect-levels-handbook

    Can’t find the EU one

    Premier Icon kelvin
    Full Member

    Countries set the standards in their own laws (sovereignty), with minimums agreed with other EU countries. Our standards currently go beyond the EU minimums (as do other countries, in different areas depending on local politics/economics)… read all about our current standards and checks here…

    https://www.food.gov.uk

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    That’s because apparently there aren’t allowable limits for those things i.e. any is too much:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/food-standards-brexit-uk-us-trade-deal-maggots-rat-hair-worms-insects-mould-products-a8575721.html

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Full Member

    I can’t believe people are naive enough to think that Johnson removing workers rights, food & environment standards from the legally binding withdrawal agreement and moving them to the meaningless Political declaration didn’t mean that these standards wouldn’t be downgraded

    Its been a Tory wet dream for decades to do just this

    Kwarteng & co wrote a book about it ffs!

    The extra trade friction costs created by brexit has to offset in some way

    And slashing standards is the obvious way to do it.

    Premier Icon tjagain
    Full Member

    Douggiedogg – the NOPE was in relation to you stating there was no health implications to antibiotic use in beef farming. there are.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Full Member

    So even if food is cheaper – if we’re all poorer, that’s not going to help much is it?

    The extra trade friction costs created by brexit has to offset in some way

    Eaxactly. You’re a mug if you think otherwise, frankly. Tories want to slash standards and ‘red tape’. That’s what they are all about. Small govt. And this isn’t mud-slinging, it really is their platform. But to them, ‘red tape’ is things like quality and environmental standards, and worker protections.

Viewing 40 posts - 6,401 through 6,440 (of 6,826 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.