Breaking up the Union. What would it mean for the constituent countries?

Anyone got figures for how much revenue could be gained by an independent Scotland if they got the oil? Presumably any receipts for a Scottish govt would come through taxation, but to maximise that an oil company would need to be based in Scotland.

How much money was spent bailing out Scottish banks?

When all is said and done TJ, you’re not a Scot and never will be… England is better off without you, but Scots Nats types will never truly accept you. That’s the reality of the situation no matter what sort of tartan gloss you try and put on it

As a long-term SNP voter who long for independence, can I just say that’s perhaps the most insulting pile of **** I’ve read in a long time. Folks like TJ, who settle in Scotland, out down roots and make a helpful contribution to society are more than welcome, whether they’re based in Edinburgh or out in the highlands.

can I just say that’s perhaps the most insulting pile of **** I’ve read in a long time.

To be fair, that did come from bravohotel …………have you never read any of his stuff before ?

to be fair he has excelled himself with that racist rant whilst suggesting the scots are more racist and then managing to drag Islam in as well to his fuel his hate filled pish. He could use it on his CV for when he applies to do PR for UKIP/BNP or similiar

Independence for Scotland would do mostly… nothing at all. Europe and large multinational companies do most of the talking and make most of the decisions these days. Look how Ireland, Portugal and Greece are being pushed around. I agree with the comment above about the greedy and greasy making the most from any change. I would rather have PR for the whole of the UK and a bit more long term planning in the whole of the UK. Oil money corrupts in most cases and it means governments don’t need “real” industry to get tax so neglect the rest of the economy. The UK probably suffers from too much tax from Oil and financial services.

The economies of England and Scotland are so intertwined that I am not sure what the real difference could be? Folk might vote for independence from their hearts but really EU governments are not nationalistic so what’s the point other than Scotland does not like the Tories. Tell you what the North of England and Wales does not like the Tories either but due to the history of the nation we can’t attach that to some nationalistic jingo. The two things are totally separate though. I was over in Scotland today and can state it was exactly the same as the other side of the Cheviots.

TandemJeremy – Member
England would have a tory government for ever

Well, they’ve had one for the past 32 years anyway, so no change there.

See, at the moment, you Scottish folk are tolerated by us lot as people from a small part of England, but if you were proper foreigners, do you think you’d really have it any easier?

What would you do for a military to protect your borders? You wouldn’t have an army, an airforce or a navy. Then the Americans would invade you for your oil, and we’d help them. 🙂

Probbly best if you just shut up whinging and got on with things really, in’t it?

You wouldn’t have an army, an airforce or a navy

No but seriously Ernie; they haven’t thought it through properly, have they?

If you take away everything ‘British’ from Scotland, what have you got left? Not a great deal really.

And what language would they speak? 😆

what language would they speak?

Whatever language it is they speak now ? ……they seem to be able to communicate with each other alright.

**** trying to learn it though.

Well the official Language of Scotland is English. So they’d have to stop that, woon’t they? And how many Scottish people actually speak Gaelic or Scots? Not a lot, I’d wager. How much would it cost them to translate all the road signs, bus timetables and stuff into their own languages? Then re-educate all those who can’t speak those languages (most people in Scotland then) to speak the ‘native’ languages. And which would you chose? Gaelic or Scots? Bet there’d probbly be fights over that one.

Then what about all the Loyalists? What would happen to them? Would they be forced to move to England? What if England said ‘no bollocks to yer we’re already overcrowded you can’t come in’? Would they then be forced into exile somewhere? Forever to roam the Earth in search of Zion?

See? It’s a bloody stupid idea, no more than a fantasy in the narrow minds of those who seem to have some romantic notion they’d be better off independent. Sheer idiocy. Tiny little country with **** all resources, a finite supply of oil which woon’t last long anyway cos they’d have to sell it all to prop up everything which is subsidised by the rest of the UK and to pay for all the re-education programmes and that, then they’d be bang in trouble.

And they’d still be shit at most sports….

Tiny little country with **** all resources

Tiny maybe, but it used to have an empire :

Scottish Empire

And whilst lacking resources, they have certainly not been short of good ideas……….I can’t recall noticing that you insist on only riding a bike with solid tyres.

Well the official Language of Scotland is English. So they’d have to stop that, woon’t they?

eh, no.

And how many Scottish people actually speak Gaelic or Scots? Not a lot, I’d wager.

at 2001 census just under 2% spoke Gaelic. Scots wasn’t included in that census (but was in the most recent) – various surveys suggest 17-50% speak Scots depending on how the question is worded and if there is any explanation (many people speak and understand Scots without realising it).

EDIT: Just seen this claims 85% speak scots! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

How much would it cost them to translate all the road signs,

you’ve never been to the mountain bike capital of the world then? if you had you would realise that most road signs in the highlands and islands are already bilingual, and even is a far south as Edinburgh the train station names are bilingual!

PS I do realise you were just being flippant (you were weren’t you)?

Why, would that be, Ernie? The pneumatic tyre is a British invention, and I have no problem with the Union.

I do however have a problem with parochial small-minded jingoists who seem to believe they would be better off as a separate nation. Why not instead just get along together and co-operate instead? Better, no?

I’m actually for the opposite; take away the nations, and just have Britain as one nation. Take away the quibbling over English Scottish Welsh etc, just be British. We do it for t’Lympics, so why not do it all the time?

Scottish players might get to play in a World Cup then, too. And Welsh ones. See, my plan’s best.

We’re better off if we work as a team, rather than squabbling over petty differences:

eh, no.

Well no I’m sorry, but if the Scots want to be properly Scottish, then I’m afraid they have to give up speaking English completely. You don’t want to be part of Britain? Get yer own flipping language then. Go on! Oh er actually a lot of it’s Norwegian…. 🙄

PS I do realise you were just being flippant (you were weren’t you)?

Whaddyou reckon? It’s just that every time this argument pops up, it’s some arguey English bloke leading the way, and it’s a load of bloody pathetic nonsense anyway. We’ve done this loads of times on here, and every time, the same old shite.

Elfin,

Do you really want to have that debate or are you just trolling?

I used to think Scottish Nationalism was largely parochial nonsense too – but I’m increasingly leaning towards it; and there can be no doubt that politically and culturally Scotland is quite distinct from the “UK”. If you don’t understand that it probably reflects a SE England Parochialism; one which offends much of the rest of the UK, and indeed probably has far more to do with the 4 nations’ distinct identities than anything Mr Salmond has done. Wiping out the border and treating it all as a single homogenous country is not possible even ignoring the will of the Scottish (and other British) people as for example the Education and Legal systems are quite different (and it seems unlikely that England is ready to catch up yet!).

However the main reasons I am leaning towards Independence are:

(1) It will force politicians to be realistic. This might not be great for all our expensive policies, but it would be honest.

(2) I’m increasingly thinking that it couldn’t be that bad. What’s the worst that would happen?

(3) I’d like to see someone bringing more economically centred politics in Scotland – I don’t see how that can happen without control of taxation and finance.

I think rather than being the “winners” if Independence were to happen the SNP would be the loser. The one thing that unites the party would no longer be their raison d’etre. Likewise all the “London led” parties would no longer need to tow a party line (and no longer have damaging associations with thatcher, blair, clegg etc.).

As to where the income will come from, I’d personally go in the face of political opinion by building multiple nuclear power stations to sell power (and possibly hydrogen) to our neighbours south of the border – wave and tidal power give us significant “energy assets” to develop in the future too. I might even continue to let you keep your nuclear subs on the clyde, for a fee! But, I think I might have a struggle on my hands convincing everyone else.

it’s some arguey English bloke leading the way,

if you are referring to TJ (who I’ve never met) then I think you are missing the point, the vast majority of the Scottish population wouldn’t judge him to be English based on the country of birth or ancestry of his parents – his nationality is a state of mind…

Scotland would lose its influence in the World.

lol! Now you’re really grasping at straws!

Do you really want to have that debate

No cos it’s boring.

Separation separation separation….

Divide Britain into constituent countries, then certain regions will want independence (Cornwall and Yorkshire for example have ‘distinct’ identities and there are marked differences between North and South Wales). Where do you stop? Hmm? Where?

Borders serve only to divide people. What is great about Britain is that we can see ourselves as one united nation, well, we could if some people weren’t so flipping narrow-minded. What TF is wrong with being ‘British’?? What? This Island’s greatest successes have come because of that union. That’s what we should be proud of, and that’s what we should work together on, to make it successful again. Scotland gaining full independence from Britain would serve no one and harm everyone, in the long run.

If you don’t understand that it probably reflects a SE England Parochialism

Oh of course cos we’re all sooo ignorant of anything that happens outside of the M25, of course, yeah, right. 🙄

the vast majority of the Scottish population wouldn’t judge him to be English based on the country of birth or ancestry of his parents

Right. Ok. Yeah. Course.

😆

Enough of this nonsense. To bed!

Wunundred!

Independent or not; it would still rain all the time up there… 😉

The pneumatic tyre is a British invention

So according to your genius mind the Scots speak British then ?

Hey Elf – the good news is that if independence ever does come up as an option in Scotland, no one will ask your opinion, or care what you think, leaving you free to fiddle with your ferrets in peace.

Elfin; Alex the fish has just phonned and asked for you to come and speak on preserving the union! 😀

Effinsafety, next time you’re up my way (Stirlingshire), give me a shout and I’ll buy you a pint whilst we discuss why we’re right and everyone else is wrong. 🙂

Beagy, proudly British.

The remiaining parts of the Union would be far better off without certain elements of Scottish “culture”….[/url]

Dunlop was born in Scotland but living and working in Belfast when he developed the tyre.

when he developed the tyre

…..after it had already been patented by another Scotsman.

Divide Britain into constituent countries, then certain regions will want independence (Cornwall and Yorkshire for example have ‘distinct’ identities and there are marked differences between North and South Wales). Where do you stop? Hmm? Where?

CF, that would be funny if it weren’t so accurate and it’s one of the reasons why I’m glad I don’t live in that part of Scotland anymore.

I think there may be a party, probably with a bit bagpipes and lots of tartan and waving on the Saltire then things will get back to normal apart from there being a few more politicians and something else for them to discuss for years on end without actually doing much…

Oh and everyone in Scotland would have to apply for a new passport. And re-register their cars with the SDVLA – although you may be able to claim your tax disc back! 😀

Break up the union and the following would occur:

England = wealthier
Scotland = poorer but eligible for all kinds of eu grants
Wales = still drunk
Northern Ireland = still beating the bollocks out of each other

Yossarian – you have that the wrong way round – Scotland would be richer and England poorer.

all over Europe are groups of people who want self determination – from the Flemands and Walloons who want to split Belgium to the Bavarians to the Basques

Europe would happily split up into 3 times the number of independent states it is now with power devolving down to this level and up to EU level leaving the current national governments redundant

Yossarian – you have that the wrong way round – Scotland would be richer and England poorer.

TJ you have not in any way demonstrated that this is true, your links are ambiguous at best. I do not believe the remainder of the UK would agree to Scotland having all the revenue from the oil. There would have to be some sort of settlement… (Which if you read about how independence would occur seems to be the final hurdle).

So you don’t think international law would stand in this case? Its a moot point as there clearly is not a majority in Scotland for independence but the oil belonging to Scotland is widely accepted and is in line with international law and UK law

TJ – do you have ANY idea how expensive it is to drill, refine and distribute oil?

I would welcome Scottish independence if the people of Scotland want it.

You will not be wealthy as a result, you may want to be and you may use oil as the crutch for your dream but that’s all it is.

You will however be free of westminister and be able to fully govern yourselves, be free in essence.

Is that not what really matters?

It isn’t to do with international law. It is naive to think that it ever get that far. Long before it got to that stage there are lots of discussions to be had and agreements made with the current UK Govt. and the oil revenue agreement would be lumped in with that.

Don’t get me wrong, I am not against independence, nor against Scotland claiming its own assets, I just do not believe it is as simple or as clear cut as you or any of the commentators think.

Indeed it is yossarain. Not that I feel particularly strongly either way but I outline the case on here for information.

The amount of money raised in tax from the oil which would come to Scotland (despite what Toys says)is more than the block grant under the Barnett formula.

The amount of money raised in tax from the oil which would come to Scotland (despite what Toys says)is more than the block grant under the Barnett formula.

That is true, by about 10%. But the barnett formula is not all of what Scotland receives from the UK.

The amount of money raised in tax from the oil which would come to Scotland (despite what Toys says)is more than the block grant under the Barnett formula.

For how long? Then what?

Really? What else? How about the other moneies that go the other way? The total spend in scotland is significantly less than the tax raised in scotland

Yossarian – Barnett reduces each year as % of GDP. The oil will last plenty of time for Scotland to develop its own industries and economy as Scotland would have money to invest that it does not have at the moment