Viewing 39 posts - 81 through 119 (of 119 total)
  • Brake checking vs tapping pedal to light them up
  • defblade
    Free Member

    The main/best answer here is increase the gap to the next car to four seconds or so, but in the meantime…

    In my experience, tailgators fall into 2 camps, which has already been touched on – passive and aggressive. And, on the whole, these are split by gender mainly female passive TGs, and male aggressive ones.

    You can’t shift a passive TG without completely stopping. Their driving appears to be to accelerate gently until one car length behind another car, then do excatly what that car does until their paths diverge.

    You can have some fun with aggressive TGs tho* 😉

    Put your car in a gear lower than normal for the speed limit, so it’s very responsive to the throttle both on and off. Allow your speed to rise maybe 10% above the speed limit. Say 30 to 32 or 33. Keep an eye on the rear view mirror… as your TG closes the gap, lift off, allow your speed to drop to 10% below the limit – maybe 28. Watch again for the clear bonnet dip behind as Mr Aggressive has to hit the brakes. As soon as you see that, back up to 32. Repeat as necessary – it usually only takes 2 or 3 cycles before the TG gets fed-up and drops back (or actually overtakes). The beauty of this one is it appears completely unintentional and non-aggressive – you’re just a driver trying to stay at the limit – but also just completely out of sync with their driving; it’s fairly clear it’s their own aggression that is the problem.

    *See also “lapping” Middle Lane Morons on empty motorways. (3 laps is my record)

    fossy
    Full Member

    I quite like the 20 in Wales now. I’m a Manc that spends alot of time there, so I’ll stick to it with a little plus minus.

    Locals/non locals get ratty sometimes… hey ho.

    I’ve not yet come across issues when I’m riding plus 20 mph as I avoid the main roads in North Wales – TBH – it’s loads better on a bike in Wales than in England anyway – always has been.

    mattyfez
    Full Member

    I got somewhat very shirty with my SIL as she’d bought a new Yaris Cross for £30k plus

    Yeah, we are in a dangerous place at the moment, the gap between manualy driven vehicles and fully autonomous ones… people seem to think they can let a semi auto vehicle do all the work…it’s called driver assist rather than autonomous for a reason.

    It seems a lot of people think they can just disengage from activley driving or even looking where they are going.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    I always rant on about ‘Lane Assist’ in my car, not only because it seems to activate when it shouldn’t, but also, if you are incapable of keeping your car between two lines on the tarmac, you shouldn’t be getting behind the wheel in the first place.

    Even meandering over to the point where it turns on and shoves you back into your lane is bad driving, and offputting for everyone else.

    singletrackmind
    Full Member

    I think it encourages phone use as well. If the car is going to keep you in lane and your input only has to be to monitor the gap between you and the car in front you can switch off.
    Get up to speed , flick on cruise control , grab mobile and start WhatsApp up. Lane assist and adaptive cruise will do the rest , right ?

    Kramer
    Free Member

    Having driven back from France in a mate’s car that had adaptive cruise control and seeing how much easier it made the journey, it’s definitely something I’d look for in a car in future. If it also had the lane assist and stop start driving then even better IMV.

    They make driving in traffic on motorways so much less tiring.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    They make driving in traffic on motorways so much less tiring.

    I’m not sure I quite get this. I mean, I’m sure they work well and can make the drive easier, but is that a good thing?

    Driving isn’t tiring to my way of thinking, it’s boring, especially on motorways. That’s where my mind wanders and I lose concentration, and yes at times particularly when driving was part of my job, at the end of a long day you could almost drift off – and obviously people do with terrible consequences. IME it doesn’t happen on non- Mway / dc roads, where you actually have to drive and choose gears and go round corners, and it doesn’t happen if you’re trying to negotiate the M40 in rain and traffic where there’s a lot happening or with the potential to happen.

    All these driver aids things that remove the need to be actively involved, to my mind make it more likely I’d lose concentration – and if we’ve got to the point that it doesn’t matter because the car has total control then fine, but this half way where it removes the stimulus but doesn’t remove control – IDK.

    I’d really like to see active monitoring of the driver – eyes, yawning, various other inputs I’m sure indicate lack of attention / oncoming tiredness and if necessary then feeding stimulus in or even requiring driver to pull over. Bit Big Brotherey but.

    Or maybe you have various buttons on the wheel that you have to activate from time to time as they light up, and if you fail to then alarms go off and the seatback kidney punches you into alertness again?

    grimep
    Free Member

    received a 12 month ban for causing an accident by brake checking someone

    Brake checking as in actually braking, or accelerating while lightly tapping the brake pedal to flash the brake lights?

    Flashing brake lights and braking are completely different things. A brake light coming on can’t cause an accident. Driving involves seeing brake lights coming on at unpredictable times. If seeing a brake light causes a tailgater to have an accident, it was the tailgating that caused the accident.

    Interesting that no one actually seems to know the legal position.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    A brake light coming on can’t cause an accident.

    What does the driver behind do when he sees the brake light come on? He doesn’t know it’s just a tap on the pedal, and would be stupid to not respond to that tap assuming it is a brake check.

    What does that do to the driver behind that one?

    Maybe they don’t hit the car in front, but they have to brake a bit harder because they’ve also used up reaction time……and onto the next. Frequently it’s not the first few cars that run out of space but the ones behind them – it’s called the concertina effect and is known in insurance claims.

    I’ve been in one (as a passenger) and it was horrific – we were about third car and stopped in time, just, the car behind us also stopped and then the car behind hit him, that hit us into the car in front. Followed by IDK, three or four further shunts as cars behind hit the back of the line. Must have been a few seconds but the noise, the smoke from airbags going off, and even in that short time thinking ‘**** – I hope there isn’t an artic coming up behind!’

    Not saying that was caused by someone in front brake checking but it could be. And could have been avoided if everyone had left more space, but as discussed earlier in the real world on the M1 on a busy day, leave a gap like that and three other cars will be in it.

    BRAKE CHECKING IS A DICK MOVE – WHETHER ‘LEGAL’ OR NOT.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    I’d really like to see active monitoring of the driver – eyes, yawning, various other inputs I’m sure indicate lack of attention / oncoming tiredness and if necessary then feeding stimulus in or even requiring driver to pull over. Bit Big Brotherey but.

    Exactly this, with modern facial recognition software it would be easy to achieve, but I guess that doesn’t sell cars as much as something that lets you pay no attention on the motorway.

    doris5000
    Full Member

    I’d really like to see active monitoring of the driver – eyes, yawning, various other inputs I’m sure indicate lack of attention / oncoming tiredness and if necessary then feeding stimulus in or even requiring driver to pull over. Bit Big Brotherey but.

    This stuff already exists. My car is a mid-range 2020 Mazda and it has ‘Driver Monitoring ‘, which will bleep at you and tell you to rest if thinks you need it. My rental Ford Kuga had it last year. I’d imagine that posh brands have had it for much longer.

    AIUI most cars with ACC and lane assist will also, if they don’t detect your hands on the wheel, gradually slow down all the way to about 10mph.

    This stuff is now part of the euro ncap stuff too – systems are afoot where if it detects a crash and the driver isn’t conscious, it will automatically contact the emergency services. Cars won’t be able to get a 5 star rating without driver monitoring IIRC.

    Kramer
    Free Member

    I get the points above about still needing to pay attention.

    I found that adaptive cruise control makes it much easier to pay attention to lane discipline and which route we were taking, whilst being less tiring overall.

    It became noticeably more tiring when we were back in the UK in stop start traffic, which is why I think that stop start would be a good addition.

    I’m not sure how becoming bored and attention wandering during motorway driving is fundamentally different to being tired?

    blokeuptheroad
    Full Member

    I’m not sure how becoming bored and attention wandering during motorway driving is fundamentally different to being tired?

    You can still be focused on the road and the task of driving when you first start to feel tired. Most sensible people recognise the warning signs, know how dangerous it is and will then do something about it ASAP. Swap drivers if that’s an option or pull over for a break, power nap, coffee etc.

    If you’re bored and inattentive because your car is taking control of SOME driving functions then you’re less incentivised to do something about it. More likely too, to plod on with an exaggerated feeling of safety. Much more dangerous imo.

    grimep
    Free Member

    BRAKE CHECKING IS A DICK MOVE

    Brake checking involves applying the brakes and decelerating. Which is the entire point of this thread. The clue is even in the title. I don’t think anyone has suggested that braking in front of a tailgater is a good idea.

    blokeuptheroad
    Full Member

    Brake checking involves applying the brakes and decelerating

    😆 No, that’s just braking! Brake checking is something entirely different. It’s using your brakes to deliberately force another vehicle to slow, with the attendant risk of them rear ending you or causing a road rage incident. It IS a dick move.

    In advanced driving you are taught to never do a road manoeuvre which forces another driver to change speed, direction or road position. If you do you are delegating some of the responsibility for your own safety to a driver you don’t know.

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I always rant on about ‘Lane Assist’ in my car

    I dislike Lane Assist also. Mostly because the line it chooses isn’t the line I’d choose, so I’m constantly fighting it. I have a suspicion that it was designed for left-hand drive cars and never recalibrated (the reversing camera is the same, it has a flyout on the left of the screen which perfectly obscures the kerb you’re trying to park against).

    Cougar
    Full Member

    I think it encourages phone use as well. If the car is going to keep you in lane and your input only has to be to monitor the gap between you and the car in front you can switch off.
    Get up to speed , flick on cruise control , grab mobile and start WhatsApp up. Lane assist and adaptive cruise will do the rest , right ?

    and

    All these driver aids things that remove the need to be actively involved, to my mind make it more likely I’d lose concentration

    and others.

    There was a thing on TV several years ago, something like Britain’s Worst Speeders or some such. One of the featured drivers was a black cab driver who habitually ignored speed limits. They instructed him to drive to the limits and filmed him. His driving actually got considerably worse, he was bored shitless and not paying attention.

    It is something of a quandary and I’m not sure what the answer is. Things like automatic headlights are great, auto wipers are (ahem) clearly useful, and so on. But the more we disengage a driver from driving the more they’re, well, disengaged.

    I like to set myself little challenges. When setting off, can I hit 30mph on the nose without looking at the dash? There’s a local steep street punctuated with a T-junction at the top, lights-controlled that are almost certainly on red as it favours the major road; can I balance speed and timing on approach to knock it out of gear and roll to a stop at the white line like a Shuffleboard puck? If someone were to suddenly ask, would I know what’s behind me without needing to look in the mirror? Can I frob dashboard controls without looking (a right pain in the tits with the advent of touchscreen stupidity)? And so forth.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    I’m not sure how becoming bored and attention wandering during motorway driving is fundamentally different to being tired?

    Effect may be the same but I can be not tired and just bored, let my mind wander, and not therefore pay attention to doing the most dangerous thing I do on a regular (multiple times a day) basis. But I think we agree really

    You can still be focused on the road and the task of driving when you first start to feel tired. Most sensible people recognise the warning signs, know how dangerous it is and will then do something about it ASAP. Swap drivers if that’s an option or pull over for a break, power nap, coffee etc.

    I’ve asked my passenger to make an effort to talk to me and keep me alert until we can either swap or get to a safe place to stop.

    Brake checking involves applying the brakes and decelerating. Which is the entire point of this thread. The clue is even in the title. I don’t think anyone has suggested that braking in front of a tailgater is a good idea.

    OK, I’ve googled and seems like in pure terms then internet agrees with you and brake checking does involve forcing someone to brake. If it’s important you win that one.

    But back to what I put before, and in response to your ‘tapping the pedal to light them up’ (or any of the other ways of achieving the same, eg: fog lights) – what does the car behind do in response? They don’t IN THAT INSTANT realise or assume it’s just a tap; they see brake lights and respond, as does the car behind and the car behind and….. potentially somewhere down the line someone is KSI. And to say they shouldn’t have tailgated / left enough of a gap might technically be right but 2 wrongs, etc.

    Surely a flash of red is reasonable

    No, it’s indistinguishable at that moment from brake checking in terms of the effect it has on the cars behind – and is a dick move. Maybe even more so if you’re accelerating away and just leaving a concertina crash behind you. At least drop anchors and join in the fun.

    Is it legal – in these days of dashcams and so on, if you did cause a pile up whether you’d been part of or not when the front driver claims you ‘brake checked’ him and provides the video of it to the police, what do you reckon they’d say? Could you really justify your actions?

    irc
    Full Member

    “There’s a local steep street punctuated with a T-junction at the top, lights-controlled that are almost certainly on red as it favours the major road”

    Funny how some lights work. Some junctions are on a joint sequence. So one set – where I set off at green. If I get to 30mph and maintain that speed the following set is always red. On the other hand if I set off and get to 38-40mph they are always green.    Going the other way there is an incentive to start slowly and maintain no more that 20-25mph as this gets to the next set as they go from red to green. Set off normally and you are stopping at the red.

    My driving challenge is to get home through all sets of lights without being stopped at any. Achieved very rarely. Needless to say this only works for after midnight finishes when the roads are near empty.

    Keva
    Free Member

    Situation, you’re in the fast lane of a dual carriageway with slower traffic on the inside lane, behind a car doing not much more than the speed limit. You’re a reasonable distance from the car in front. A van accelerates up to your rear bumper, tailgating you and putting you at risk.

    Decelerating as advised above could cause a collision. Surely a flash of red is reasonable, there’s nothing else you can do in the situation.

    As has already been said, a good dose of screen wash usually gets them to back off.

    irc
    Full Member

    “. A van accelerates up to your rear bumper, tailgating you and putting you at risk.”

    I would either do nothing or maybe ease off on the throttle to increase the distance to the car in front. If the van isn’t taking a 2 second gap then I need a 4 second gap to make up for it.

    breadcrumb
    Full Member

    A nice long blast of screen wash usually does the trick.

    On a speed awareness course it was scary how many other participants thought the safe from the car in front distance was two car lengths 🤦🏻‍♂️

    Cougar
    Full Member

    They don’t IN THAT INSTANT realise or assume it’s just a tap; they see brake lights and respond

    What do you suppose would happen if you had to brake? What are you championing here, never braking if someone’s on your bumper? If caressing the brake pedal to put the lights on is enough to cause a multi-car pile-up then it was going to happen sooner or later anyway. And frankly, you’re better off not being one of them.

    Funny how some lights work.

    I half-remember a trial somewhere, I think somewhere like Oxford of Cambridge. They’d set up the lights so that if you did 30mph you’d get greens all the way through town; if you broke the limit you’d get caught on reds. I thought that was a clever idea.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    No, of course not. If you have to brake you have to brake. I’m answering the point that giving someone a brake tap can’t cause an accident when clearly it could.

    Not will, lots of other factors at play before it’s a certainty.

    It’s still a dick move, just wait until you can pull over and let them past safely. Not least cos brake testing them whether by brake tapping or actually braking is just going to antagonise a shit driver even more.

    slowoldman
    Full Member

    I’ve been in one (as a passenger) and it was horrific…….

    That sounds to me like a long line of drivers too close.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Clearly, if they couldn’t stop in time then they must have been. Noting however as per a previous post that plenty (us included, and the car in front of us) had left enough space to stop – just.  But not enough that when people behind hadn’t and consequently we got shunted into the car in front, that in turn was then shunted into the one in front of that.

    iainc
    Full Member

    It is interesting that if an EV is slightly too close to the car in front, and the driver lifts off, the brake lights will most likely come on, and entirely legally…

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    Same issue as already mentioned for motorbikes – it’s common to have enough engine braking just by rolling off the throttle but that doesn’t warn any following drivers, so a tap of the brake lever is recommended.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    is that because when not pressing go the engine regen is effectively braking the car ?

    Cougar
    Full Member

    Is there an opposite term to victim-blaming? Antagonist-apologising?

    If you gently touch the brake pedal with your left foot in order to put the lights on without affecting speed at all, and there’s a subsequent pile-up behind you, that’s their own stupid fault and exactly why you needed to do it in the first place. No? The alternative is that when you do have to brake the same thing happens only with more vehicles involved, yourself included.

    scotroutes
    Full Member

    If you gently touch the brake pedal with your left foot in order to put the lights on without affecting speed at all, and there’s a subsequent pile-up behind you,

    Then you have literally just caused a collision.

    tonyg2003
    Full Member

    Break checking is pretty damn stupid. Just drive normally and don’t let the idiot behind you distract you from your view in front and then let them past when you can. I’m never in that much of a hurry not to let the idiot past and almost always they end up on the tailgate of someone else. Although I do notice I get it more when driving my sons little Peugeot 108 and something else.

    You should drive a horse lorry with horses on board if you want to see irate tailgaters. Almost as much hate from other road users as being a road cyclist!

    iainc
    Full Member

    theotherjonv
    Full Member
    is that because when not pressing go the engine regen is effectively braking the car ?

    Posted 33 minutes ago
    REPLY | REPORT

    yes

    sirromj
    Full Member

    Then you have literally just caused a collision

    Bullshit! Lightly tapping the brake is a normal part of driving whether someone is close behind you or not.  You might want to drop just under the speed limit instead of being just over it, or, reduce cornering forces for sickly passengers, for instance.

    iainc
    Full Member

    scotroutes
    Full Member
    Same issue as already mentioned for motorbikes – it’s common to have enough engine braking just by rolling off the throttle but that doesn’t warn any following drivers, so a tap of the brake lever is recommended.

    however in most EV’s it will trigger the brake light… I know this after 6 months of ev ownership.

    theotherjonv
    Full Member

    Bullshit! Lightly tapping the brake is a normal part of driving whether someone is close behind you or not.  You might want to drop just under the speed limit instead of being just over it, or, reduce cornering forces for sickly passengers, for instance.

    Back to the OP though, the question is not whether braking where necessary is allowed; it’s whether when someone is tailgating you, making them think you are braking is a sensible action. It isn’t, it’s a dick move.

    So’s tailgating and intimidating driving, indeed that’s a bigger dick move – but as I said before, 2 wrongs.

    martinhutch
    Full Member

    You certainly triggered the accident, but then, if the drivers behind were relying on you not even wafting your foot over the brake pedal to stay alive, you’re not the primary cause. Still not sure I’d feel a satisfying glow to see some tailgater disappear into a ditch. Perhaps I’m too soft hearted.

    hodge1365
    Full Member

    Wow….

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