He agreed to refund, no excuses now

honouring the promise of the refund?

he changed his mind, but is trying to squirm out of it rather than just be open about it?

If that was offered and accepted by the OP then that becomes part of the contract incorporated into the sale.

utter bobbins, as your

IMO

suggests. The refund offer was made after the sale and the seller has every right to change his mind about his goodwill. If the original ad included “money back guarantee if its found to have damage I havent disclosed” then you can start quoting theoretical contracts.

If I was the OP I’d be p1ssed off, and the seller hasnt covered themselves in glory, but I’m in the “havent got a leg to stand on” camp, unfortunately. Damage that can only be seen after paints been stripped off? How was the seller supposed to know about it then?

I think this is a case of you being unlucky and not checking it over fully.

Its sold as seen, its a risk buying a secondhand frame (and personally id have walked away from that vintage lapierre anyhow, never mind one in that state, hardly just been rode down tow paths has it!

Its hard luck really, just ride it till it goes fully, its not going to kill you or bung a banjo clip around the shell to hold it and stop it expanding too much. I wouldnt worry about looks as its destroyed already.

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10004&t=12669282

If I was buying a bike I would at least do a little research before buying it.

EDIT: Please ignore me its 2009

Yes i heard about the BB cracking on the 2009 frames.

This frame was actually advertised as a 2009 frame when he emailed about it. Found out later it was a 2008.

Imo if he was happy to lie about the age of the frame, and going back on his word regarding the refund I have little doubt that he knew about the crack.

Lesson learn’t. I won’t bother buying a second hand frame again.

May be bought the frame in 2009 but was a 2008 model – not everyone keeps fully up to speed on the subtle differences on each year’s model?

If the crack was not visible how would he know?

How have you approached the refund situation? Calmly or aggressively? Angry or assertive. All purely subjective of course but may be you said something you felt was reasonable but has royally pissed him off.

Looking at the advert posted for a replacement front triangle it looks like the seller is being pretty reasonable in trying to remedy but without a full transcript it is impossible to make a call either way.

Calmly, I said I will wait for him to get paid, and understand he has other commitments. I gave him over a month to get the money together and was promised to have it when he last got paid.

I said I will pack everything up to send myself, and just sort out a courier when you get paid.

More than fair really.

going back on his word regarding the refund I have little doubt that he knew about the crack.

you had to strip it to bare metal to see it so why do you think he could see it?
yes you were fair re refund and yes it appears they have changed their mind re this

Years ago I bought a titanium frame off ebay. Collected it from the seller too. And when I got it home – I discovered a crack in the bottom bracket. My bad for not examining it in the first place – but I raised an ebay dispute and it was judged as mis-described and I got my money back.

mudsux, why would you do that? As you said, you accepted that it was your fault.

mudsux, why would you do that? As you said, you accepted that it was your fault.

WTH?

I have been stung by a buyer over something similar recently. I sold a frame on eBay that was in good condition. The buyer received it and the set about stripping the paint off a perfectly good frame. He then emailed me saying there was a deep groove in the shock body and a dent in the chainstay. The dent was there for chainring clearance and the mark in the shock was not there when I sold it. How do I know this guy didn’t set about stripping the frame with an electric sander or something?

I had been done over by superstar before when I modified an item that was broken on receipt. Legally I had not come back as by modifying it I had accepted the goods as they were. Stripping the frame has left you in the same situation- you have no right to a refund. The point about not seeing it until the paint was removed is also a good one- if you couldn’t see it, how could the seller?

Suck it up and don’t respray the next frame you buy.

But was the crack noticeable on a visual inspection as Ti is usually bare.

We have already established in this case that the crack was not obvious on a visual inspection and therefore to all intents and purposes taking in to account the good faith of the seller it was as described.

Munrobiker – Your story isn’t really the same. You sold a frame and it was fine. This frame has a clear crack in it, and what looks like stress marks just next to the crack indicating (to me) that its been ridden for a while.

Don’t respray a frame next time? I think thats what the seller wanted me to do, as soon as its ridden then I wouldn’t have any come back at all?

I should have noticed the crack when I picked up the frame. You could probably still see it while the paint was still there but I didn’t spot it. The paint around it was flaky and grubby, easy thing to miss.

Who removed that BB?

Sorry a crack like that would be visible to anyone who removed that BB. Its blindingly obvious.

I’m with the OP, the seller was obviously aware of the problem from when the bb was fitted, he didn’t need to be able to see it!
Poor show by seller going back on the refund. Nice for him, he has his shiney new bike to ride around on while the OP is left out of pocket with a cracked frame.

mrjmt – Member

I think the relevance of the BB being in the frame is well described in the thread linked to by the OP, its a press fit BB, which the seller said didn’t need replacing and that was fitted by his LBS. Either he’s not being honest or his LBS were unable to find a cracked BB shell when pressing the new BB in?!?
I know which I’m leaning towards.

or it cracked whilst it was being smashed out…? Just saying like..

I removed the BB then spotted the crack. You could see the crack wasn’t fresh, there was dirt in there already.

Stress marks towards the seatpost make it look like its been there a while to me, I would imagine its been creaking for a while.

Havent read the whole thing… but buying a 2008 Zesty and expecting it not to crack or be cracked… thats just what they do right?!?

Where would the dirt come from? Not from the bottom bracket and not from external as you say there was no crack when you bought it.

Sui – Member
mrjmt – Member
I think the relevance of the BB being in the frame is well described in the thread linked to by the OP, its a press fit BB, which the seller said didn’t need replacing and that was fitted by his LBS. Either he’s not being honest or his LBS were unable to find a cracked BB shell when pressing the new BB in?!?
I know which I’m leaning towards.
or it cracked whilst it was being smashed out…? Just saying like..

Maybe, but the stress marks would clearly indicate otherwise.

I feel sorry for the OP since he’s out of pocket. But you’ve got to apply common sense when making such purchases. The frame was five years old, it looks like it’s had a hard life, Lapierres are notorious for cracking etc.

It’s just not worth the bother. The lifespan of lightweight long travel alu frames is probably about 3 years tops, that one seems to have done well to last till now with only a cracked BB.

I don’t think the seller is absolved of any responsibility just because the buyer picked it up, or because they hadn’t noticed any problem before they sold it,
It’s not easy to find a crack when your picking a frame up, some cracks are semi hidden like the OP’s, or that fine you can easily miss them during a cursory inspection, doing that while in a strange place with someone you don’t know, and sorting money out as well isn’t as foolproof as some make it out to be,
So IMO the OP deserves a refund..

I’m more surprised that a crack that big wasn’t visible before.

Is it possible that there were only stress marks before the BB was removed and that the crack only happened as a result of the BB removal?

Either way, for what it’s worth, this is the risk you take buying a second hand frame. Two mistakes have been made. The first was buying the frame in the first place, the second was the seller saying they’d offer a refund.

As you have stripped it ready for powder coating why not get it welded yourself. Probably wont cost that much. I guess the fiddly bit would be any heat treatment that was needed. Find a frame builder that deals in Aluminium and they should be able to sort it.

Who removed that BB?
Sorry a crack like that would be visible to anyone who removed that BB. Its blindingly obvious.

Have I missed a picture of the bike being posted ?
I didn’t think we had seen the cracked frame yet.

So IMO the OP deserves a refund..

+1. Or a hefty partial refund at least.
The bottom line is that he was sold a cracked frame without disclosure that it was cracked. It really doesn’t matter how old it is or how much he paid for it.

But nobody knew it was cracked
You buy cheap second hand, collect in person, hand over money, end of

But nobody knew it was cracked

This is the key – does the OP believe the seller had no prior knowledge of the crack?

Equally, if the current buyer had sold it on – without knowledge of the crack – would they expect to refund the new owner? Would they go back to their seller?

Have I missed a picture of the bike being posted ?
I didn’t think we had seen the cracked frame yet.

There is a link to the thread where he posted the pictures somewhere around here.

But nobody knew it was cracked

That’s a matter of debate…
.
.

You buy cheap second hand, collect in person, hand over money, end of

Not if it’s described as in good condition it’s not..

Imo, suggest to sell to go 50/50 on the frame. He may be more inclined to refund half the money than it all.

Then chalk the other half up to experience,

Imo the biggest mistake you made was buying a frame in that condition. It looks SHAGGED, even without a close inspection.

Let alone the brand of the frame is known to be fragile.

Not saying it’s your fault or it’s right to sell dodgy goods, the seller should fully refund.

However you’ve now stripped the frame of paint which is why I suggest 50/50.

Or name shame + pitchforks etc

Here’s the crack if you didn’t see the thread.

Woody74 – I did ask about repair in my other thread, the general response was the frame is now scrap.

Plyphon – I agree, in the photo’s the frame does look pretty grubby, but the rest of the frame is actually in very good condition. I was more concered about the marks on the chainstay when i went to look at it, but the photo’s make it look worse than it is.

Once i cleaned it up.

Take it to a decent aluminium welder, get an opinion. it can be over welded & then the BB shell re-reamed to the correct tolerance. I wouldn’t suggest it’s scrap at all.

Plenty of high stress aluminium applications get re-welded when they crack. It’s a bike frame.

Thanks, I will try and sort something out with the seller first. If I’m stuck with the frame I will look into welding.

This is the key – does the OP believe the seller had no prior knowledge of the crack?

It really makes no difference what the OP believes just as much as it makes no difference what the Seller ‘knew’. The simple fact is he saw it, he bought it and then proceeded to strip it of paint and knock out a press fit BB

Even before any of that you’ve got zero recourse; I mean what are you really going to do, take him to a small claims court over a second hand bike frame? Does anyone really have that kind of time?

Paint it, put BB in. Stick a jubilee clip round it. Ride it. See how long you get. It’s not stopped working yet.

not ideal but how about getting someone weld a bmx bottom bracket holder into that shell.( DMR do them) Then weld the rest up and fit a three piece crank and a single chainring. The bmx bb should be much smaller in diameter and would enable the ring (or fixing shell to add material) – the bearings then tap in.

second thoughts – it does look bad..

Or a zip tie?

I agree with the 50/50 idea.

Good luck.

If we make the assumption that the seller didn’t know about it then 50/50 seems ok, although even then I’d be peeved if I’d bought it

OP…please tell me you didn’t pay 450 quid for a 5 year old frame?