Get your protein, carbs etc. from proper food not manky shakes

I really don’t get the aversion to shakes, they’re cheap, convenient, and you get the lowest protein to calorie ratio which is ideal if you’re worried about BF %.

36p per 500ml, 110cals, cheaper than milk, and certainly the 347cal Frij I was drinking.

So let me get this straight. You’re saying that a protein shake over a normal diet will help the regular trainer?

No one’s saying that. What’s being said is you can get a lower calorie, convenient protein intake from a shake. If neither reduced calories or convenience – or perhaps expense – is important to you, don’t bother.

You could cook a chicken breast at about £1 – £1.50 depending on quality, if you have the time & inclination.

Higher protein intake than average is proven to help athlete’s who experience muscular stress, yes.

So let me get this straight. You’re saying that a protein shake over a normal diet will help the regular trainer?

No, where did I post that?

Also, if you’re expecting to compete and win in cycling, you’re far from a ‘regular’ trainer, who would be dropped in just about any race within 200yards of the start line.

Get your protein, carbs etc. from proper food not manky shakes. Jacket potato and tuna can be done in a microwave minutes.

Yeah, I always have a baked potato and tin of tuna in my gym bag…

molgrips – Member

Already been mentioned but nutritional Ketosis & riding in a fasted state for body fat loss.

Hmm. But then again.. does that result in reduced base metabolic rate over time?
.
.
in a word … No!
2yrs into keto and strong as an Ox n ripped to the bone 🙂

Good luck training for racing eating that little protein a day, your thighs would just shrink month on month…

I’ve been on less than that for a year or so whilst consistanty improving my strength and results, not bad considering I’m also up against old man time.

@krypton The 0.8g per KG is UK RDA for an average male btw nothing about sedentary life you’ve just added that bit for fun. Even that figure is arrived at after the meat lobbyists have leant all over the advisory commitee so considered by some to be on the high side.

Body builders perhaps need more but who want to be a bodybuilder and a cyclist?
In context of this, a cycling forum I don’t see any evidence( thats actual evidence not a study by proteins shakes r us.) to suggest anything over the RDA is needed.

I’ve been on less than that for a year or so whilst consistanty improved my strength and results, not bad considering I’m also up against old man time.

Great anecdote.

IIRC Team Sky eat about 25% of their calories from Protein which will be a lot more than 50g a day….

to suggest anything over the RDA is needed.

Pretty much any professional cycling team will be eating well over the RDA..

In context of this, a cycling forum I don’t see any evidence( thats actual evidence not a study by proteins shakes r us.) to suggest anything over the RDA is needed.

Maybe you should type “protien for cyclists” into google.

OK so the maximum the UK goverment recommends for any age male adult is 55g…

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/384775/familyfood-method-rni-11dec14.pdf

But we think the professional full time cyclist (sponsored by protein bar manufacturers) are taking extra and you want what they’ve got, how much more do you need given your near pro physiology 50%, 100% ?

That’s still probably less than your getting from an average meat diet( possibly one plate!)

Maybe you should type “protien for cyclists” into google.

Ah yes, that’ll give me the facts

Wilburt according to mfp I got 111g today. I must be awzums

OK so the maximum the UK goverment recommends for any age male adult is 55g.

Except it doesn’t say maximum, it says “estimated average”

in a word … No!
2yrs into keto and strong as an Ox n ripped to the bone

Sample size of 1, too many variables between individuals to draw any conclusion.

And I’m not doing keto. Step too far for me.

But we think the professional full time cyclist (sponsored by protein bar manufacturers) are taking extra and you want what they’ve got, how much more do you need given your near pro physiology 50%, 100%

I think you’ll find they eat according to their team dietician / best available science, as they’re in the business of maximising performance. Not that many teams are sponsored by Protein bar manufactures (there isn’t enough money in it to be able to afford to sponsor a Pro team).

in a word … No!
2yrs into keto and strong as an Ox n ripped to the bone

Sample size of 1, too many variables between individuals to draw any conclusion.

And I’m not doing keto. Step too far for mem

shame! because its an easy and Very very tasty step 😀

And I’m not doing keto. Step too far for me.

I don’t think anyone suggested you do.

Nowt wrong with supplementing a good diet with protein boosters if you’re working hard. As above, they can be a good way of getting the levels where you think you need them without taking on extra fats and carbs.

I think many misunderstand the benefit of extra protein and think it’s strictly for muscle types much like the way weightlifting is perceived by those without experience.

shame! because its an easy and Very very tasty step

Aye right.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC1vMBRFiwE&feature=youtu.be[/video]

You don’t need more protein, you can digest and absorb more yes but your body can only utilize a small amount of that for muscle growth. The rda is more than enough unless you take anabolics which is the only way you increase the rate you can turn it into muscle.

Diet stuff aside, my take from this is your exercise is wrong for burning fat. Vo2 max sessions and hard club rides are going to do wonders for your cardio fitness, as you’re likely working in the upper heart-rate zones. But your body is going to be burning glucose in your bloodstream to fuel those. So it’ll be working off your most recent meal, not your fat stores.

To burn fat, you need to slow down. Long rides at max zone 2 heart rate so you body switches into fat burning for fuel.

In my running training I find I always lose weight marathon training as I’m spending long hours at low heart rates. For the summer road race season I always maintain or gain weight as I do a lot of short running at high intensity. My calorie intake is always neutral throughout (I eat what I burn + BMR amount).

In short, I’d keep the mid week high intensity trainer sessions, but I’d switch club groups on a weekend to the old-boys long distance group and spend three hours at a low heart rate.

A very complex topic, lots of theories, lots of science which is why this has stretched to 5 pages. I find it fascinating both from a scientific point of view and in seeing how different people interpret science and media publications.

I was going to comment on this

To burn fat, you need to slow down. Long rides at max zone 2 heart rate so you body switches into fat burning for fuel.

I thought this was a myth (cit. needed 😉 ). My understanding is that your body will always use the most readily available fuel which will be you glycogen stores. This will be replenished either by supplies coming from digestion or from metabolizing your fat reserves. I don’t think your body preferentially uses fat reserves under any circumstances. What slow rides allow you to do is to continue to use up energy at a rate where your fat reserves can supply them if the other sources aren’t there. So doing a long slow ride will only work if you do it slightly in calorie deficit – if you eat cake all ride this will be the energy stores.

The problem with high intensity exercise is that the fuel source pretty much has to come from glycogen and carbohydrate, fat is not fast enough. As such you can do them calorie deficient* but you will bonk most spectacularly.

*By this I don’t mean completely fasted, just don’t put in as much as you are planning on using on an overall balance.

jonba – Member

A very complex topic, lots of theories, lots of science which is why this has stretched to 5 pages. I find it fascinating both from a scientific point of view and in seeing how different people interpret science and media publications.

My understanding is that your body will always use the most readily available fuel which will be you glycogen stores. This will be replenished either by supplies coming from digestion or from metabolizing your fat reserves. I don’t think your body preferentially uses fat reserves under any circumstances.

During exercise, people use a variable ratio of fat to carbohydrate.
Yes, carbohydrate is more readily consumed in the muscles in order to provide energy for movement, which is why we see people use a higher ratio of carbohydrate to fat, to provide the energy to sustain high intensity exercise, until those carbohydrate stores are significantly depleted, etc.

Conversely, this is also why we see people at low intensity exercise. Sustain their activity using energy, a higher ratio of which comes from fat, while obviously using a lower amount of carbohydrate.

Long and slow in order to try to reduce BF% is for a lot of people, V boring. I’d suggest dealing with boredom is part of the challenge one chooses to face, in order to achieve their goals, but Ho-Hey, each to their own.

Likewise, HIIT is mostly employed to manifest physiological adaptation to improve strength, or whatever the goal is, for bringing about that physiological adaption.

So in simple terms one makes their choice to do one or the other. However, some folk may try a bit of both, simultaneously, which would be very difficult to do, successfully, as pointed out in an earlier post.

If you cut out the bread and crisps then you’d loose far more fat than you’re currently doing. Replace these with rice, couscous etc. Also add perhaps one session of weights work into your training every week. That will help you loose just the fat rather than a combination of fat and muscle weight. Simple, worked for me.

To burn fat, you need to slow down. Long rides at max zone 2 heart rate so you body switches into fat burning for fuel.

[quote]I thought this was a myth[/quote]Yeah this is a myth that belongs back in the 80s along with Jane Fonda workout videos. Not saying you won’t lose fat this way, just that HIIT is way more efficient time-wise. There is no “magic switch” in the body where it flicks from fat to glycogen at a certain intensity level. The body is way more complicated than that.

For anyone not familiar with Trainer Road, it also includes Z2 worksouts. In fact I was up 6am this morning doing exactly that in a fasted state.

to burn fat efficiently you need to be in carb deficit, if you have any glycogen in your system your body will naturally use that first and store the fats until the glycogen is depleted.

I personally function extremely well on animal fat, Moderate protein and under 20gm of low GI carbs per day, im about 8% body fat and can ride all day without ‘bonking’ so something tells me this is the best way simply because its soooo easy! IF you are battling to get fat off then IMO you are doing something wrong.
Nutritional ketosis is the right way to get the results you are after.

read this. http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Art-Science-Carbohydrate-Performance/dp/0983490716
or Ignore it and carry on with the battle you cannot win 🙂

Not saying you won’t lose fat this way, just that HIIT is way more efficient time-wise.

It’s not a myth if it works 🙂

I have a feeling that the studies on HIIT don’t result in ALL participants losing more weight than ALL the control.

There is no “magic switch” in the body where it flicks from fat to glycogen at a certain intensity level

So what explains the blood lactate/intensity graph? (genuine question)

to burn fat efficiently you need to be in carb deficit, if you have any glycogen in your system your body will naturally use that first and store the fats until the glycogen is depleted.

At low intensities.

im about 8% body fat and can ride all day without ‘bonking’

Fine, but what about your sprint? Not everyone wants to ride all day, lots of different kinds of cycling. I suspect that keto is not the best way to train for XC racing for example.

In short, there are lots of things you can do that will result in weight loss. Which one works for you physically and personally depends on your preference, your lifestyle, your goals, your genes and what you want to achieve in terms of riding.

my sprint is fine thanks, for a 50yr old who rides for fun 😆
all I can say is that since I have been in ketosis my body composition is waaay better, my performance is better and more important to me my joint pains are much less than they were 🙂

People seem to make this more complex than it is….

If you want to lose fat go into calorific deficit. don’t over do it cause it’s not sustainable.

In setting your calorie level include how much you need to achieve your training goals.

Review your progress every four weeks. are you losing fat? Are you achieving your goals? And change your diet accordingly.

Andy Morgan seems to have a no BS approach that’s easy to follow.

diet set up

Sure it’s aimed at building muscle but it’s all just energy.. why make it complex

He also answers the OPs question…

how to track your progress

People seem to make this more complex than it is….

If you want to lose fat go into calorific deficit. don’t over do it cause it’s not sustainable.

Right and wrong, if you want to loose fat, muscle and weight just go on a calorie deficient diet.

If you want to loose just the fat and therefore weight (but not muscle), then don’t worry too much about calories, just cut down on sugar, processed carbs and eat more natural sources of protein plus plenty of carbs from vegetables.

calorie deficit? Ok then explain this! I regularly have over 4000+ calories per day of animal fats (and stay very lean) but recently did an experiment where I was ‘supposed for a week’ to eat a normal carb diet of around 3000/3500 calories, BUT at the end of day 3 my weight had gone up by 12’lbs and my waist circumference by 5 inches 😯 so I cut the experiment off right there and then! so Explain the calorie thing to me???

I’m getting confused by this thread, but not the scientific bit, surely the OP has lost fat and probably not much, if any muscle, by dropping 7lb since Christmas. It’s the believing of the fat % given by the crappy scales that’s misled him into thinking he hasn’t. Or have I missed something ?

zilog6128 – Member

To burn fat, you need to slow down. Long rides at max zone 2 heart rate so you body switches into fat burning for fuel.
I thought this was a myth
Yeah this is a myth that belongs back in the 80s along with Jane Fonda workout videos. Not saying you won’t lose fat this way, just that HIIT is way more efficient time-wise. There is no “magic switch” in the body where it flicks from fat to glycogen at a certain intensity level. The body is way more complicated than that.

TrickyDisco posted test results, which IIRC, demonstrated that the ratio/amount of fat used in comparison to exercise intensity, varied inversely.
The higher the intensity, the less fat TD was using and vice-versa.

HIIT uses fat to fuel adaptation. Building muscle, for example, requires energy as well as protein. This is where you see people digressing about post-workout “burning” etc.

molgrips – Member
In short, there are lots of things you can do that will result in weight loss. Which one works for you physically and personally depends on your preference, your lifestyle, your goals, your genes and what you want to achieve in terms of riding.

Agreed.
(My emphasis in relation to the OP’s comments)

I’m getting confused by this thread, but not the scientific bit, surely the OP has lost fat and probably not much, if any muscle, by dropping 7lb since Christmas. It’s the believing of the fat % given by the crappy scales that’s misled him into thinking he hasn’t. Or have I missed something ?

You are quite right, but the thread has since “evolved” many times in the time old tradition of STW.

There is some useful stuff being added though!

BUT at the end of day 3 my weight had gone up by 12’lbs and my waist circumference by 5 inches so I cut the experiment off right there and then! so Explain the calorie thing to me???

From what I understand, the weight gain would come from water attached to the glycogen. 1 gram of glycogen bonds to 3-4 grams of water.

For the waist size, it’s highly unlikely (impossible!) that you put on fat around your middle so quickly so will be stomach bloating from the sudden reintroduction of carbs (I’m guessing bread, pasta etc)

TrickyDisco posted test results, which IIRC, demonstrated that the ratio/amount of fat used in comparison to exercise intensity, varied inversely.

aye.. did a fitness test years ago hooked up to various things and measured certain things

at the end of the test I was told I was rubbish at burning fats for fuel

centralscrutinizer – Member
Or have I missed something ?

I think we all agreed earlier, using your bathroom scales to gain a useful BF% probably wasn’t “best practice“.

Trickydisco – Member

at the end of the test I was told I was rubbish at burning fats for fuel

However, IIRC, you did improve your ability to use more fat, via change in diet and exercise, no?

Your experience also substantiates, if not already obvious, MolGrips point about genetic variation between individuals.