I’m having a very similar discussion with one of the young turks at work on slack who has a ‘substantial investment’ in BC. Been plagiarising footflaps points (hope you don’t mind). Think I’ve got him worried.

I don’t understand this sort of take. If someone is happy to take a risk on something like this, go for it. Opportunities these days are few and far between.

As long as you know you might lose your cash. I didn’t see the use of the fud.

The chap may have doubled his money now. Why spend time convincing him it was a bad idea?

Could this be a trigger for a burst bubble?

No it won’t and it hasn’t.

That was a couple of days ago and was a relatively small pool mining set-up.

Pay outs would’ve been fairly regular up until the wallet got robbed.

Our fiat system doesn’t go pop when a bank is robbed does it?

So many people want this to fail. It’s not even started yet and has a long way to go and evolve.

I take it you all think our current banking system is here to stay?

You’re on a one-way negative trip and that’s fine but you’re using the hindsight of the tech bubble as the main thrust of your argument.

In the absence of any other rational explanation I’m calling it a speculative bubble. It’s behaving just like all previous speculative bubbles as are those caught up in the bubble.

NB The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (other than if you need to launder money / trade illegally).

If someone is happy to take a risk on something like this, go for it.

If people really thought they would lose it all, they wouldn’t invest in it (other than a trivial amount which wouldn’t warrant the effort). A lot of people are going to be genuinely pissed off when they get burnt.

NB The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value

Why does that matter? it’s worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, same as anything else.

Why does that matter? it’s worth what somebody is willing to pay for it, same as anything else.

Because when things with no (or very low) intrinsic value start rising rapidly in price for no reason, it’s called a speculative bubble. These normally don’t end well. If they get big enough they can crash stock markets, cause recessions etc.

There are plenty of examples to look at to see what happens. Tech crash 2000, Tulip mania etc, Silver bubble of 1980 (smaller scale). It’s not the first nor the last time you’ll see this sort of bubble.

Because when things with no (or very low) intrinsic value start rising rapidly in price for no reason, it’s called a speculative bubble. These normally don’t end well. If they get big enough they can crash stock markets, cause recessions etc.

There are plenty of examples to look at to see what happens. Tech crash 2000, Tulip mania etc, Silver bubble of 1980 (smaller scale). It’s not the first nor the last time you’ll see this sort of bubble.

But then we get back to my earlier comment of gold and gemstones. Where is the intrinsic value in these? Their value is purely based on a social construct which has lasted millennia. Gold and gems are also bubbles, but ones which didn’t burst. Who’s to say that the perception of value won’t be endowed upon a cryptocurrency in much the same way (especially set against the background of the modern worship of technology), perpetuating its value?

By owning these bitcoin thingy majigys just mean it’s nowadays unobtanium for the average saver.
Those that created it are surely just coining it in on giving a false impression that they’re worth more as the days go on.
Like a pyramid scheme.

Oh and can someone explain exactly how it has a detrimental impact on the planet.
I’m guessing you’ve guessed I’m not I.T. Smart and that I use an ipad 😆

Don’t even need a face mask or gun if you want to steal some.

Hackers steal thousands of Bitcoin, worth some $80m, from Slovenian-based company NiceHash.

Posted by BBC News on Friday, December 8, 2017

It’s a bloody crime wave !

Same thing happened two hours ago 😉

@tdog – it’s detrimental to the environment because of the shear computing power being used to mine the Bitcoins, which uses electricity. Some of which does come from renewable sources, but the majority of which (I’m guessing), doesn’t.

Oh aye so it did Neal, I blame Brexit.

The chap may have doubled his money now. Why spend time convincing him it was a bad idea?

I’m not. I’m pointing out some of the issues that he may not have considered, as well as winding him up a bit as he’s a cocky little sod 🙂

I take it you all think our current banking system is here to stay?

Being an armchair anarchist, I quite like the idea of a distributed financial system which bypasses the banks. Hence my question about whether warnings from bankers were genuine. Having read a bit about it though, I do think it is all a bit of an idealistic wet dream. Maybe it’ll turn into something that genuinely threatens the status quo, but I doubt it. More likely it’ll be absorbed by the banks and turned to their own advantage to make more money.

As long as you know you might probably will lose your cash.

guy on the radio today has lost £40k because he was scammed by a website pretending to hedge bitcoin. He was so sure of the growth in bitcoin (his words), what he of course meant was “I’m so sure I’m going to make an easy buck” that he’d already found another on line dealer (again anonymous, as they all are) and “invested” more of his money.

A fool and his money…etc etc

Sure thing justinbeiber, that’s what I had thought.
Sounds like it’s getting outta control

The main thrust of my argument is that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value (other than if you need to launder money / trade illegally).

So what. The whole definition of “value” has challenged the greatest of minds. It doesnt matter. Value can exist without corresponding “widgets!

Also it may crash tomorrow and lots of people may lose money but if I invest £1000 and it becomes £1m then crashes to zero. I may appear to lose £1m but its not a gain until I take it. I have really lost £1000.

@tdog – it’s detrimental to the environment because of the shear computing power being used to mine the Bitcoins, which uses electricity. Some of which does come from renewable sources, but the majority of which (I’m guessing), doesn’t.

but have you actually stopped to consider the energy cost of other currency’s or even the energy cost of the internet, which you are using?

A quick google shows that the internet uses 70 Billion KWH a year!

This site claims 32TWH which i think is the same as 32 billion KWH.

So bitcoin, whilst indeed consumes a lot of energy, it is less than the internet, which has it mission critical uses, also host a lot of cat pictures and porn.

How much energy does it take to extract gold, refine it and transport it? Printing paper money is i doubt energy neutral and a lot of it gets destroyed or replaced every year.

It is easy to hear headline comments such as bitcoin uses as much energy as denmark each year, and assume that it is bad.

Interesting that it take 250kWh to process a transaction. That’s about £25 at retail electricity prices – makes the banks look cheap. You could say it’s not a real cost, because the person making the transaction doesn’t pay it, it comes of the mines, but in that case it’s a pyramid scheme. Although, 2140 is far enough away that something else will happen before the last bitcoin is mined.

Re: power usage, I read the headlines this last week and thought the numbers quoted seemed very high, but got distracted before I could try to work out the maths myself.

This guy has made an attempt and reckons it’s <21TWh/annum, or about a third less than the papers were saying. Still a huge number and I’m not defending it, but it’s a fair bit below Ireland.

Greybeard – Member
Interesting that it take 250kWh to process a transaction. That’s about £25 at retail electricity prices

Seems high but assuming they are correct this is addressed by lightning, as transactions can take place off chain

guy on the radio today has lost £40k because he was scammed by a website pretending to hedge bitcoin. He was so sure of the growth in bitcoin (his words), what he of course meant was “I’m so sure I’m going to make an easy buck” that he’d already found another on line dealer (again anonymous, as they all are) and “invested” more of his money.

Many, many more scams in the fiat world.

The sad fact is if he left his money just in bitcoin he would be doing very well currently.

Many, many more scams in the fiat world.

Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!

Anyone know what the crack is with I/Ocoin? I’ve been watching it on a long decline for a while, wondered if it’s worth putting a few quid on.

Just about to pass $20K per Bitcoin mark, nearly 3x the value when this thread started! Possibly drop again straight after…

Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP? (0.2btc).

Tinribz- I’ve bought virtual coins via https://bittylicious.com. Although I haven’t converted anything back into pounds yet, the process in this website seems relatively straight forward. Let me know how you get on! My guess is you will get a better price tomorrow as spreads are usually large over the weekend.

Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!

Really? Think any scam that has manipulated the public’s money in recent memory.

Look bitcoin is expanding in the same way Facebook et all expanded. It just happens to have a price attached to it.

A Ponzi scheme by definition is set up to deliberately defraud its investors. So it fails that test.

Just about to pass $20K per Bitcoin mark, nearly 3x the value when this thread started! Possibly drop again straight after…

As the futures kick in there has been a bit of a shove.

Up and down for a while now but then as things settle down, onwards.

Big players getting involved now.

There is the question of whether they will short it to death after a pump. Who knows.

Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP?

My intended route is kraken to fidor bank account.

Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP? (0.2btc

Blockchain.info

rone – Member
Yes but are they SPECULATIVE TULIP BUBBLE PONZI SCAMS ?!
Really? Think any scam that has manipulated the public’s money in recent memory.

Look bitcoin is expanding in the same way Facebook et all expanded. It just happens to have a price attached to it.

A Ponzi scheme by definition is set up to deliberately defraud its investors. So it fails that test.

Um, I was joking dude.

Can anyone recommend an easy way to convert bitcoin back to GBP?

A few ideas in here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/BitcoinUK/comments/6w71wa/do_any_uk_banks_authorise_payments_to_coinbase/

https://www.revolut.com/ gets mentioned a few times.

I found this a really good accessible explanation of what exactly “blockchains” are:

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBC-nXj3Ng4[/video]

Um, I was joking dude.

I lost the plot on that one as so many calling it a Ponzi. Sense of humour has been by passed.

Bitcoin down over the last few days as bitcoin cash sucks the money in. I’m buying bitcoin on these dips.

I have a strange urge to do some mining because I’m a tech geek, I’ve harboured this urge since I first became aware of bitcoin about 4 yes ago. The eco argument seems to be largely negated if you can do something useful with the heat – anyone doing anything clever? E.g. my office building is unpleasantly cold before 10am, and I have no control of the thermostat, I could but a timer on a miner to warm my wee office form 4 or 5 am?

What stops me is a belief I have that crypto currency is the untraceable oil that makes the dark web run smoothly. So by getting involved in it, I am in some way helping druglords, paedophiles, people traffickers etc. Given its explosion recently I also suspect it helps many more mainstream people move assets untracably and avoid tax. Is my ethical worry misplaced (obviously me not mining them isn’t going to stop them existing, but profiting because someone wants to buy them for a dodgy transaction seems wrong).

Are there any crypto currencies which are positioned to avoid this – e.g. by being more traceable?

I would imagine that regular folding cash powers illegal activity far more than crypto “currencies” do.

If you are going to mine, invent your own currency, mine it until you have loads of coins, then release it into the wild. Pump and dump baby.

Edit: it’s not untraceable, it’s pseudonymous. The record of transactions is public after all.

I have a strange urge to do some mining because I’m a tech geek, I’ve harboured this urge since I first became aware of bitcoin about 4 yes ago. The eco argument seems to be largely negated if you can do something useful with the heat – anyone doing anything clever?

1060s are economical.

I’m waiting for nice hash to sort itself out currently as that was a simple bit of software.

I rest my case.

https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2017-12-20/after-7-500-rally-cryptocurrency-founder-sells-all-his-coins

Some other good tricks going on this week. Pump up a forked currency:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/one-of-the-co-founders-of-bitcoincom-has-sold-all-of-his-bitcoin-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

Then suddenly it starts trading on Coinbase not 24 hours later:
https://blog.coinbase.com/buy-sell-send-and-receive-bitcoin-cash-on-coinbase-65f1b2c7214b?gi=aaabec01f05e

Or you can give people “tokens” in exchange for their Ethererium:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/42337546

“Iced tea company rebrands as “Long Blockchain” and stock price triples”

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2017/12/iced-tea-company-stock-triples-after-adding-blockchain-to-name/

Nope, definitely not a bubble. No way.

Anyone buying the dip then?

I see Ripple has weathered the storm. 8)

Stop loss kicked in on BTC.

Still holding ETH, bought some more Ripple.