but the enjoyment is tainted. Unnecessarily in my view.

i think that says more about you than BPW.

OK, let me try again. If you read the legalese it’s designed to protect BPW from riders. That’s not a particularly friendly thing to do – when you invite friends round to your house you don’t ask them to sign a disclaimer. It’s perfectly acceptable commercially, of course. What it’s doing is saying that the management of BPW see riders as a potential liability. So pretty much your first contact on arriving is them saying “we’re worried you’re going to rip us off”. That’s why I say that they give the impression of hating bikers. The lawyers and underwriters who wrote that see us as a threat. Which we are, from their perspective.

That’s how it has to be these days in a society of litigation. We see it LOTS in trackdays. Person crashes and then tries to sue the Trackday organiser or indeed the other rider. One guy tried to sue because he went on the grass and crashed, no-one had apparently told him wet grass was slippery.
So you basically have to sign your rights away for ‘accidents’ which i completely understand, as stated, if i crash because BPW put a 20′ gap jump on a Blue, that’s their fault… If i crash because i can’t jump a 20′ gap on a black, that’s 100% on me.
That’s what BPW are covering themselves against, unncessary litigation. Their trails are sanctioned and signed off as ‘fit for purpose’ within the grading systems they use, that will be signed, sealed and agreed somewhere, as long as BPW follow this, they’re OK.

But if they run you over with the mini-bus, then you could sue them 🙂

so here’s their conditions….

ACCEPTANCE OF RISK

YOU ARE ABOUT TO TAKE PART IN A HIGH RISK ACTIVITY. YOU WILL MINIMISE THIS RISK BY FOLLOWING THE SAFETY RULES AND ADVICE IN THE MOUNTAIN BIKERS RESPONSIBILITY CODE AND THE MOUNTAIN BIKE AND EQUIPMENT CHECKLIST. IF YOU DON’T FOLLOW THE SAFETY RULES AND ADVICE YOU INCREASE THE LIKLEHOOD OF A SERIOUS ACCIDENT WHICH COULD BE FATAL.

I understand that Mountain Biking is dangerous and includes substantial obstacles, which can be physically testing. I accept that there is a risk of injury and death when undertaking such activities.
I understand that I must wear a helmet at all times and that a full face helmet, eye protection, body armour and gloves are highly recommended.
I agree that I will follow the Mountain Bikers Responsibility Code at all times
I agree to check my bike and equipment as per the Mountain Bike and Equipment Checklist at the start of the day, before each run and after any crash.
In the unlikely event of an accident, or loss or damage to my personal effects, I acknowledge that the company, its sponsors and any associated parties will not be liable for any direct or indirect loss, damage or injury arising from or in connection with the Activities (except for death or Personal Injury caused by the Company’s negligence).
I certify that to the best of my knowledge I do not have a medical condition which might have the effect of making it more likely that I be involved in an incident which could result in injury to myself or to others.

SAFETY BRIEFING

It is important that everyone who uses BikePark Wales takes note of the following Health and Safety advice:

Mountain Biking, like any extreme sport, is dangerous and includes substantial obstacles, which can be physically testing. There is a risk of injury and death when undertaking such activities.
Trails are graded according to ability, ensure that you are competent to ride each trail. If in doubt start on the easier trails and work your way up.
Always perform a recce ride of any trails you intend to ride; trails change with weather conditions and from continual trail amendments and improvements, do not assume they will always be exactly the same each time you visit.
Follow the Mountain Bikers Responsibility Code
Children aged 16 and under need to be supervised by a parent or guardian (over 18 years of age) at ALL times
You must ALWAYS wear a helmet. We also strongly advise you wear a full face helmet, eye protection, gloves and body armour. IF YOU DO NOT HAVE A HELMET YOU WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO RIDE IN THE PARK OR USE THE UPLIFT SERVICE.
Read and adhere to all advice signs while using the trails.
It is your responsibility to ensure your equipment is fit for purpose
MOUNTAIN BIKE AND EQUIPMENT CHECKLIST

The trails at BikePark Wales are rough, challenging and demanding on both bike and body.

We recommend the use of appropriately sized, modern, long-travel, full suspension bikes with good quality hydraulic disk brakes in the park.

Before riding always inspect your equipment or have it checked by a qualified bike mechanic.

Helmets are mandatory, ensure that your helmet is in good shape and properly adjusted; we highly recommend the use of full face protection helmets. Gloves, eye protection and body armour are also highly recommended.
Inspect bike frame for cracks, damaged or dented areas.
Ensure you have sufficient brake pads to stop your bike while descending; two working brakes are mandatory.
Front and rear axles (quick release or bolt through type) should be tight.
Headset and stem must be secure with no looseness or play.
Check that your tyres are in good condition, with plenty of tread and no cuts or abrasions in the sidewall and that rims show no cracks or signs of weakness and all spokes are tight and intact.
Handlebar and handlebar grips must be tight and unable to spin.
Seat and seatpost need to be fastened securely.
Suspension should be in good working order with no leaks or loose parts.

I’m not seeing an issue.

“That’s how it has to be”

It doesn’t have to be elsewhere.

“I’m not seeing an issue.”

You haven’t quoted everything.

I thought i had…. what did i miss then ? Lets not be so cryptic, what EXACTLY is the bit you have an issue with ?

Jamieson sued, arguing the resort had not properly informed him of the risks of mountain biking when he signed the waiver for his season pass and that he had “no idea” that it was possible for him to go over his handle bars and suffer a spinal cord injury.

But in their response Whistler noted that Jamieson had worked as both volunteer trail builder and patroller at the bike park for three seasons and had already completed two years training to be a medical doctor at UBC prior to the accident.

from https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/whistler-lawsuit-1.4167886

This is why we have to do this stuff

Jamieson sounds like a ****, an understandably desperate ****, but still a ****

So pretty much your first contact on arriving is them saying “we’re worried you’re going to rip us off”. That’s why I say that they give the impression of hating bikers

It’s their way of saying if you’re a weirdo who has unrealistic expectations despite the token fees and goes to application meetings and wants to bring his own food yet use our facilities for paying eaters and is seeing illegal clauses that don’t exist and can’t understand we don’t want people to use the trails without paying and that we don’t want to be sued by compensation experts, then don’t come to BPW. I fully support them in doing that.

^that 🙂

So pretty much your first contact on arriving is them saying “we’re worried you’re going to rip us off”. That’s why I say that they give the impression of hating bikers

Give over. Their operation is based entirely around mountainbikers. Without mountainbikers being involved at pretty much every level there’s no way they’d be able to provide what they do in a way that appeals to you.

There’s also no way they could provide what they do if they had no protection against unfortunate/opportunistic people who wanted to sue because no one told them mountain biking is dangerous.

Without spelling it out, without telling riders to read, and sign to confirm that you’ve read what to expect and how to behave, there’s a risk that the whole place goes under, mountain bikers lose their jobs and mountain bikers can’t ride there anymore.

It’s really basic business foundation stuff and they’re doing it, just the same as they put together jumps and berms so they work and continue to work.

ajaj mate, as am aside to all of the above, I’ll be honest that my initial response was prompted by a number of unproductive, lazy comments. I don’t envy the guys behind BPW – they’re committed riders and passionate about what they do. They’re human and I imagine they struggle to see past the snidey comments which suggest a lack of understanding about what it takes to run a multimillion pound venture which employs 50 odd people. I suppose that’s the beauty of the Internet, empowering people to pass comment. Rather than digging yourself a deeper hole why not put your energy into engaging with them. Im sure they’ll have a dig day coming up soon.

I didnt even know about the food ban, last time I was there we bought a load of chips and drinks from the cafe then ate our own sandwiches at the same time. Nobody said anything and we weren’t banned from the bus after dinner.

Not eating your own food in someone else’s cafe is very very standard across the whole country, why people are thinking it’s weird at BPW I don’t know – have you never been out for dinner?

That warning/disclaimer reads really well and is quite nice I thought. Remember there are probably thousands of people who’s first go at a trail centre might be BPW. “Bike Park? sounds like fun!” they might be thinking, having only ridden a £200 Carrara before. The warnings are to those sorts of people who make up the vast majority of MTB riders in this country. People riding £1000+ MTBs, easpecially downhill and jump capable bikes, are a very small minority.

Not being able to eat your own food in the cafe isn’t a problem. There not being anywhere to get out of the rain to eat your own food is a problem. You can only eat in your car if you drove there.
The weather can be particularly filthy round there and when you are soaking wet and tired it is frankly miserable trying to eat your lunch outside in the pouring rain.
Obviously if you are made of money you can just use the cafe.
I appreciate that many other trail centres don’t provide any covered shelters but they also don’t charge an entrance fee.

Obviously if you are made of money you can just use the cafe.

The main meals are only £7-8, really well priced for a hot main meal IMO

Eat sandwiches on the bus, get more runs in to compensate for the earlier closing time.

Eat sandwiches on the bus, get more runs in to compensate for the earlier closing time.

Was just about to post something similar. It’s a short day (even before the lastest change) so having a sit down meal is just wasting a good chunk of it (and who wants a big meal mid-ride anyway?)

(and who wants a big meal mid-ride anyway?)

I don’t I just want somewhere dry to take a 20 min break and eat my sandwiches. When the weather is properly wet the bus is quite an unpleasant environment. I don’t want to eat on there.

The main meals are only £7-8, really well priced for a hot main meal IMO

That’s 40 odd pounds for a family of five. Not everyone is a committed stormtrooper and capable of a full day of uplifts without a break. If you market your business as family friendly then you need to provide appropriate facilities.

They have. If you can’t afford £40 to feed 5 then it’s probably not the place for you. Stay at home and avoid all the other costs. I don’t want them to charge everyone more to make free facilities for tight gits who think you have to be wealthy to buy a £8 burger. But I am sure this is a wind up timid.

That’s 40 odd pounds for a family of five.

if you’ve taken the whole family on the uplift, thats ~£200. i don’t think a crappy burger is going to break the bank…

Also lol at comparing BPW to a place like Morzine or Tignes. Those places are huge resorts in the Alps where they’re serviced year round, ski in winter and bikes and hiking in summer, with multiple hotels, activity companies, infrastructure that’s been there for decades.

You cannot in good faith compare them to BPW which is a modest, completely new park built with the help of EU funding in a relatively neglected part of the country.

I really don’t understand why it is so controversial to want a sheltered seating area?

Not everyone buys a day’s uplift pass.

Not everyone has £250 to spare for a day out.

Try and see things from other people’s point of view.

Do they actually stop you eating your own food in there? pretty sure I have on occasion, maybe oblivious to whatever signs they have… admittedly I wouldn’t take the mick, someone else in the group will have purchased something, and I’d have got a drink or two so maybe they don’t care if you spend a bit. Other times I’ve just sat in the car as I don’t want to waste time going back and forth.

It’s an awesome place though, only thing that annoys me with the change is that I’ll get less riding time in which is a shame, I’m on the first and last bus every time when we go – might have to plan riding back up from halfway on the last run now to push it out to 4:30/5ish. It definitely gets quieter on the last few buses.

I really don’t understand why it is so controversial to want a sheltered seating area?

Not everyone buys a day’s uplift pass.

Not everyone has £250 to spare for a day out.

Try and see things from other people’s point of view.

Fair enough but at the outset of the project I imagine that a sheltered picnic area was pretty far down the wish list of future punters who expected world class, well maintained trails, quality, well maintained hire bikes, efficient, well maintained uplifts etc etc. I’m sure they’ll listen to people who wish for a gazebo. After that they can bow down to calls for a smoking shelter. Sorry to be facetious but I can’t believe this thread has boiled down to criticism over a lack of shelter at an outdoor facility.

maybe they just assumed everyone would sit in their T5’s?

but it has a shelter.. a massive building with a wood burner and sofa, a cafe, and a bike shop…nobodies gonna stop you using it. And another shelter at the top. Can’t see the need for any more shelters! The rest of the time just get riding!

I really don’t understand why it is so controversial to want a sheltered seating area?

Not everyone buys a day’s uplift pass.

Not everyone has £250 to spare for a day out.

Try and see things from other people’s point of view

Try and see things from other people’s point of view too then : many think that a hot dish for £8 is impossibly cheap and don’t want to subsidise any non riding facilities that would be offered FOC to tight gits.

Already bought myself a syringe driver to allow me pump glucose directly into my veins and thus skip eating at all and get in the most runs ever!

And now there is no mandatory lunch break with everyone trying to cram in to said shelter, there should be enough room of everyone to have a break.
If they did want to put another shelter in, my vote is for over the queue for the buses. Not needed though, as I will have anticipated the 3 activities of queuing, busing, and riding; along with the weather; when deciding what to wear that day.

OK, let me try again. If you read the legalese it’s designed to protect BPW from riders. That’s not a particularly friendly thing to do – when you invite friends round to your house you don’t ask them to sign a disclaimer. It’s perfectly acceptable commercially, of course. What it’s doing is saying that the management of BPW see riders as a potential liability. So pretty much your first contact on arriving is them saying “we’re worried you’re going to rip us off”. That’s why I say that they give the impression of hating bikers. The lawyers and underwriters who wrote that see us as a threat. Which we are, from their perspective.

When it contains unenforceable legal threats that just adds to the sense that you’re dealing with someone more like a car clamping firm than someone with your interests at heart.

Can you please give some specifics? You’re saying things, but not giving any detail?

From the previous BPW thread three weeks ago:

trisysjoint Subscriber

We stayed here: http://tunnelcottages.co.uk/
Literally 1.5 miles from the start of all of the BPW runs…..get your first run down for free then pay at the desk when you get there for the rest of the day:-)

From the BPW website:

Any rider caught tresspassing on the trails without a valid pass will be fined on the spot, this will be enforced by our marshalls.

So BPW don’t want trisysjoint in their park. And they want to demand money on the spot. There’s a name for that – it’s called “robbery” and most people are told that it’s wrong by their parents.

Yawn

Literally 1.5 miles from the start of all of the BPW runs…..get your first run down for free then pay at the desk when you get there for the rest of the day:-)

I can’t see where they advertise that on the Tunnel Cottages website?

From their website –

BikePark Wales is a pay to ride venue and revenues from entry fees are used to fund trail maintainance and building new trails. Please respect this and buy your trail pass at reception upon arrival. Anyone found riding on site without a valid pass will receive a £50 spot fine.

Is that much different for being fined on train for not travelling with a ticket? Seems fair enough to me.

“Is that much different for being fined on train for not travelling with a ticket? Seems fair enough to me.”

Yes, because there’s specific legislation that allows it for trains (Railways Act 1889). It might seem fair. It might even be fair. But it isn’t legal, and some of us believe in rule of law.

As an aside I’ve seen that the people on the ground, being nice sensible biker types, aren’t this draconian and take a relaxed, polite attitude if they encounter someone with a pass. It’s just whoever writes the rules.

It just sounds like your being deliberately obtuse to be honest.

So BPW don’t want trisysjoint in their park. And they want to demand money on the spot. There’s a name for that – it’s called “robbery” and most people are told that it’s wrong by their parents.

Call the police. And never visit BPW ever again please Mr Meldrew.

Stop engaging with Ajaj. He’s quite clearly the sort of mentalist who writes letters to councils about the thickness of the gap between double yellow lines not being standard and therefore not enforceable.

Wow – the loon fringe is out in force on this thread.

You’d have have to be crazy to run a business of this kind and not have some sort of disclaimer to protect you from litigation. If you think you can’t why don’t you just set up your own little bike park, let it be a free for all and see how well you get on?

Fining people riding on the trail without a pass is probably a result of people taking the piss. It’s a business FFS, and they have to have some mechanism to deter people from just turning up and riding without paying.

The food is decent for the money. If you don’t like it you can sit in your car. They have a limited footprint and really can’t be expected to accommodate people who aren’t paying for food.

Also – no one is forcing you to ride there.

JP

Like the sound of that accomodation. Surely if you’d pre booked uplift and showed them the printout voucher they’d be sensible ?

Wow, you pretty much have to be dertirmined to be offended if boggo T&Cs (written by lawyers, no doubt) are ruining your day.