Lose the top 15% of your performance tho, because balls-out is carb-burning.

I have a theory that that 15% you’d lose is different from person to person.

Could try making some rice cakes?

Team Sky Rice Cake Recipe

I keep meaning to get round to trying this as the shop-bought ones my wife got are vile.

@crosshair you don’t need to replenish at the same rate you burn. Be that 1000kcal per hour or the 400 so you burn whilst you’re asleep. You should be able to sustain a significant amount of calorie burn without the need to top up during that period.

A healthy adult male stores about 2000kcal of glycogen between their muscle and liver you don’t want to run that to zero because it’s horrible but you should be able to rely heavily on that to keep your consumption during exercise down, then top back up after.

If you’re having to mainline glucose during exercise there’s a reasonably good chance you’re not actually storing enough glycogen in the first place and you’d possibly be better off looking at your normal food intake outside of exercise rather than hammering sugar during exercise.

i’m worried about the impact of eating lots of plums and apricots on a multihour ride. Doesn’t that require a significant water intake to digest.
At what point do you need to head for the nearest hedge?

Fine, I’ll link it.

Physiology and Nutrition: Why Not Gels?

TL:Dr Gels reduce power output by stealing from the muscles and there’s not much of a way around this except eat real food (susprise surprise, gels are actually reasonably rare in the peloton outside the last 30mins of a race)

Hmmm, thats interesting. I wonder how sports drink differs, in that the primary transporter is water aka a thinner solution going in?

When I race 4-12hr I’ll have one Beta Fuel and one Torq gel per hour providing me with 110g carbs, I’d really like to know if my perceive impact of washing them down with BF is lower GI distress and a better performance than Gels alone (it should be, according to that article).

This’d be backed up by Dr Alex Harrison posting on the aforementioned Trainer Road thread mentioned – he states for long rides he carries 1 double solution of carbs in one bottle and plain water in the other to mnitigate GI distress.

Edit: on that basis as I’m racing on Saturday with a 2 day carb load I’m wondering whether to experiment with reducing to 80g by using the BF mix alone and disregarding gels

That article seems to focus on people who eat gels without drinking anything.. but who on earth does that? That’s not a problem with gels, that’s user error.

That said, I don’t use them very often cos they are way too expensive and it isn’t as easy to get the right amount of water as it is when you dissolve it in your fluids.

That guy also talks about blood being diverted away from the gut, but this is precisely why real food is not ideal when working hard because you cannot digest it as easily as maltodextrin.

In practice, I take some gels on really long rides because I like to mix a bottle with only 50g carbs in it; because it’s easier to drink that way if I am hot and sweating. But that’s not always enough carbs so the gels top that up. I can adjust the ratio of carbs/water by having a gel or not. It’s all done by feel and experience though, I don’t calculate anything.

@dangeourbrain it’s not really about the effort you’re doing now. It’s about later on. Whether that be hour 3+ in a longer effort or playing with the kids in the garden later on after a shorter ride or the workout you have planned the following day. As that vid I linked shows- you can’t really out-absorb what you are using anyhow so you’re already behind.

Trainerroad have a phrase ‘don’t diet on the bike’ which sums it up quite well. If you top up as you ride, you can allocate more of the remainder of your daily intake to healthy proteins and fat. There’s not such a need to smash carbs (and spike insulin) the rest of the day then.
Because exercise stimulates the glute 4 transporters, all that excess blood sugar goes straight into the muscles to either replenish what you’ve used so far if intensity is low or to be used straight away.

Obviously you don’t need to do this so critically if your rides never exceed your muscle glycogen stores or you have tons of time between hard rides.
Alexy Vurmulen mentions this in this weeks Fascat podcast where he’s talking about fuelling at 120g an hour during training but does cycle in some more carb restricted rides because he can feel himself craving carbs even on easier rides when he’s been doing a lot of that work.

Likewise Adam Hanson on the Evoq podcast talks about carb cycling. He gave me the idea for long (out to 6hr) fasted rides but capped at 65% of ftp so you never quite deplete enough to bonk. And likewise he recommended fueling your intensity days at ~100g/hr.

Followed my plan and drank 2x750ml bottles with 90g each of sugar +salt+squash tonight. It got me about an extra 10miles with the group I reckon. 1300kcal for the main ride. 1h15 at 301w/326np.
But…. Most importantly I don’t feel trashed now. In fact I feel like I could do another couple of hours V other years when I’ve only drank 500ml total with 50/60g SIS.

Trainerroad have a phrase ‘don’t diet on the bike’ which sums it up quite well. If you top up as you ride, you can allocate more of the remainder of your daily intake to healthy proteins and fat. There’s not such a need to smash carbs (and spike insulin) the rest of the day then.

I think this sums up where we’re differing here.
To me…

I’m having a bit of a mind bonk about what to have a go at next in terms of carbs for the cranks. I’m a big bloke at 90kg and 100-120g/hour seems to be the sweetspot once riding the sugar train

that I won’t have speedload whilst chugging the moors

Does not read like the op is looking for things to make the rest of his day a bit more normal. This reads to me like he’s looking for fuel for a ride, on the ride, because he’s plowing in sugar to keep him self going.

It reads to me like the op is “dieting” off the bike, and struggling to maintain whatever chugging over the moors* is so is just fueling as they go so probably needs to look at prefuel rather than what to put in as they ride.

I appreciate this is completely down to how you read the OP’s post mind.

*I’m also clearly not the only one who read that as just a ride rather than a blowing your guts out Z5 effort.

Yes fair points 🙌
I was assuming a multi hour effort at ‘how ever long duration he meant max power’.

From watching riders at the end of a stage I’d say still Coke and rice cakes.

I’m a big bloke at 90kg and 100-120g/hour seems to be the sweetspot once riding the sugar train

It reads to me like….

Also, whilst we are making assumptions which may be wrong, the op needs to remember he doesn’t need to fuel his excess weight

Yep OP needs to quantify what a chugg over the moors is and its objective,fitness,fastness,fat loss or fun 🙂

I keep haribos for emergencies or stooopid er mountains/hills.

Gels are grim,fine in a race if your a contender or emergencies but for pootling yuk.

I’d probably have few small decathlon cheapo cereal bars to hand to have a little munch but depends on how many hours and tempo and I’d have had a brekky cereal/cofee before so not a fasted tank.

A long days ride in the sun and I’d be making a break and having an ice cold full fat coke.

Keep water on bike sometimes plain sometimes with the tablet things in as I’m in a hot country.

IMHO i think you can overthink this stuff.

Obviously you don’t need to do this so critically if your rides never exceed your muscle glycogen stores or you have tons of time between hard rides.
Alexy Vurmulen mentions this in this weeks Fascat podcast where he’s talking about fuelling at 120g an hour during training but does cycle in some more carb restricted rides because he can feel himself craving carbs even on easier rides when he’s been doing a lot of that work.

Likewise Adam Hanson on the Evoq podcast talks about carb cycling. He gave me the idea for long (out to 6hr) fasted rides but capped at 65% of ftp so you never quite deplete enough to bonk. And likewise he recommended fueling your intensity days at ~100g/hr.

I tried all this in 2020 and as stated previously, there’s a lot of “what works for you” to be considered. I tend to “train low” for weight management. As I tend to train in the evenings >1hr hard workouts can be completed without additional supplementation as I’ve ingested carbs through the day anyway. I tend to ensure I’ve eaten a wholemeal bagel -40g carbs- for my 3:30pm snack and workout at 6pm, dinner = recovery. For up to 90 mins hard I add Torq hydro – in lieu of water/a hydro tablet – which is low carb and a stimulus none the less. At the weekend its long rides with fuel being effort dependant. As they are mostly Z2/3 I have a Bagel for breakfast, then aim to go to the end without for up to 3hrs and a ride ride coffee/cake for up to 6hrs. The only exemption to to this is my last two long 4-6hr MTB sessions before a race taper where I use race fuel to ensure I have gained an intolerance before race day.

With reference to the above, I tried that approach and ingested drinks & gels religiously and have to say I agree with crosshair that I felt good during the ride and no cravings afterwards, yet despite being in calorie deficit I gained weight – likely glycogen and water I guess. I know the standard response is “power transcends weight” but that didn’t work for me. I’m maintaining 3.8wkg now although FTP isn’t a training focus for me due to the long duration racing I’m more suited for.

The entire evening will be around 1800kcals so even 700kcal of sugar is but a drop in the ocean.

you don’t need to replenish at the same rate you burn.

This. I read somewhere recently (can’t remember where!) that you need to aim to replace around 20-30% of the energy used whilst actually exercising. The rest comes from what you already had on board beforehand.

Interestingly, BikeRacingWithoutMercy on YouTube did a lab test and even at his zone 2 he was using OVER 100g/h of carbs!!!

That’s believable. I burn about 300kcal/hr in zone 2 and I’m skinny/light. That’s 75g/hr of carbs if I replace the whole lot whilst exercising. Using the 20-30% replacement I mentioned that’s a more realistic 15-22g/hr.

Another little detail of course is fat burn. According to the info I have managed to glean, my fat burn in Zone 2 is about 42%. That means 58% of my calories burned is from carbs. Applying that to my numbers above I use about 44g/hr of carbs and should take on around 11g/hr whilst riding. I can confirm that at that low intensity I can go several hours without a feed.

Of course this is Zone 2 and not crushing the trails.

Dellorto, nope Keihin!

Nah, 40DCOEs.

Pulling this back a little from the scientific discussion, whilst I do fuel highly intense rides with maltodextrin/fructose mixes, for everyday riding I’ve found fig rolls to be an economical and convenient way to keep my energy up. I eat them when I get hungry.
Bananas are my favourite source but a pain to carry. I went through a phase of buying boxes of cliff bars and naked bars when I was doing a lot of centuries. Really great fuel for me.
Peanut butter and cheese sandwiches seem to work for me too. Especially when I’ve had enough of sugar.

Had a quick look online. A cliff bar has around 50g carbs in it. Taste great too and virtually indestructible. You can crash hard onto them without ruining the contents. Not so with a banana.
Man I’ve been in this game too long 😄

Ooh fig rolls, forgot about them. They used to be my staple ride fuel many years ago. Will have to get some!

Bananas are my favourite source but a pain to carry

You just need to relax a bit.

From watching riders at the end of a stage I’d say still Coke and rice cakes.

Just don’t ask what’s in the “Coke” can

I did a 100 mile club run on Sunday, over fairly hilly terrain, with a decent average speed and all 7 rider

That’s going to be a different ride to “chugging over the moors” as a singleton isn’t it? What’s the energy saving of a peloton (even if it’s just 7 riders) is going to what? 20-30%.

Without wanting to sound facetious; the fitter I get, the easier my long rides are, my food intake doesn’t seem to need to change much. Cheese and marmite roll, something sweet, enough water, the hardest thing for me is making myself stop, sit down and take the 20mins or so to eat.  I think the rest (for me at least) is just as important.

The other thing I think I’d add is that aside from avoiding vomiting on the bike, unless you’re at about 5-6wkg or above, the differences between these strategies can best be described as background noise to a) sleep b) progressive overload c) consistency d) losing a bit of weight, e) keeping your bike clean etc etc.

(That’s not to say I’m pushing 6, just that some people will be losing sleep over which tart cherry juice is best when they’re getting 6hrs a night)

Peanut butter and cheese sandwiches seem to work for me too. Especially when I’ve had enough of sugar.

Reminds me when I used to make protein pancakes and spread peanut butter on em and roll up and cut into little rolls of yumminess.

There’s a nice cooking book for making properly balanced sports snacks – written by a team nutritionist, full of stuff that I helpfully can’t remember the name of 🙂

The Feedzone Cookbook? I have that, its very good although I’m guilty of not making use of it TBH.

I think it’s the portables edition, I also didn’t get around to making the most of it, but there’s definately some interesting stuff in it and they do discuss the fuelling requirements so its more than a cook book.

But the Protein pancakes are mine, basically grab a packet of protein pancake mix from one of the protein suppliers and knock up a batch on the evening before, peanut butter roll and cut and put in a little Tupperware and silver foil in the morning.

I think ease of making was the driver and they are pleasant to eat and eatable on the bike.

Without wanting to sound facetious; the fitter I get, the easier my long rides are, my food intake doesn’t seem to need to change much. Cheese and marmite roll, something sweet, enough water, the hardest thing for me is making myself stop, sit down and take the 20mins or so to eat. I think the rest (for me at least) is just as important.

I’d also say the structure of a group roady ride is to ride x.x hrs to a cafe/cakeshop refuel and repeat.

Just don’t eat beer and bacon sandwiches 🙂

Just don’t eat beer and bacon sandwiches 🙂

Why not?

I’m not sure they enhance postprandial pedaling but I know a lot of folks who would be 15-20% faster preprandial if the offer was beer and bacon sandwiches.

What’s the energy saving of a peloton (even if it’s just 7 riders) is going to what? 20-30%.

Or you go 20-30% faster, or you use more energy due to it being a bit competitive…

Disagree @continuity

It applies to everyone and more so on longer rides because they take more time and require more glycolytic work the unfitter/fatter you are.

Inigo san-Milan mentioned in a podcast recently that Pro’s can’t physically sit at the high blood lactate that untrained athletes can in testing for the same amount of time because by the time they reach those figures, they’re already doing crazy high power. That’s because us lesser mortals are burning more carbs right from high Z1.

So the less hours you have to train, the smaller your aerobic base is, the more you have to rely on carbs to make good progress and thus the more important a fuelling strategy becomes.

It only takes a bit of experimentation to feel the difference- it transforms the end of long rides and recovery speed.

Coming back to Kryton’s point about excess water weight- I think there is a tipping point the other way into ultra endurance stuff where maybe (at the same body fat) being leaner,lighter, keto/LCHF and very fat adapted with a flat power curve *can* be better but I would say those events would be 12h plus for cyclists just because it’s easy to carry and consume carbs on the bike whereas for running, perhaps that spot could be 5 or 6 hrs?

Hours of wonderful geekery 🤓 (99% goes over my head so I keep revisiting when I’m doing boring jobs at work)

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-peter-attia-drive/id1400828889?i=1000555433779

@crosshair

With all the respect; that’s a big-ass straw man.

Helpfully tho, it illustrates exactly the point I was making.

Your counterargument is a pseudotechnical “unfit people burn a higher proportion of carbs so they need lots of carbs”. I didn’t say “don’t eat carbs”, but that arguing over the micronutrient density of fructose is missing the point. I get it. We’ve all listened to the trainerroad podcast ;-). Just eat some carbs that are palatable over the distance you’re riding, that you enjoy and focus on the big stuff, like “am i eating, does my bike work, am I massively overweight, did I actually get 8 hours sleep last night” etc.

If you’re fighting for 20s to bring your 50M TT under 90mins, or for second place in the national XC series then sure – get a niche fuelling strategy. If you’re pushing 3w/kg, I promise that there are so many things left on the table to achieve with less effort that it’s helpful to filter out the background noise.

Simply not true in w/kg terms. I’m never going to do much better than 4w/kg (and that’s my Jan 23 goal ‘4.0 by 40’) but as a bigger rider- to just hang with regular club cyclists requires huge amounts of fuel. My ftp is 354ish so burning 1000kcals an hour can dig you a very deep hole very quickly.

I’m averaging 9.5hrs+ of reasonably well structured riding for the year so I need to both work hard and recover fast to keep moving forwards.

Of course all the things you mention are important too but even for low hour/ relatively low fitness riders with otherwise busy lives- long rides can be transformed once you start fuelling properly V bonking after 2 hours and limping round. And it’s not even harder to do! Just whack a load of sugar in your bottle and keep it going in regularly 🤷🏻‍♂️

FWIW I’ve largely stopped listening to Trainerroad the past year or so as Jonathan boils my piss 😠 🤣🤣

I take liquidised rice and tuna in a freezer bag on a 12h TT. Add a dash of Worcestershire sauce for extra bite.

I take liquidised rice and tuna in a freezer bag

Jesus Christ man, you need help!! 🤮🤮

You need a lot of calories and sweet doesn’t cut it eight hours into a race. I also take semolina as well for balance. And when riding I can’t chew, and you don’t stop for eating in a race. Freezer bags mean you can collect them from a helper who holds them out poobag stylee.

If you’re pushing 3w/kg, I promise that there are so many things left on the table to achieve

That got me onto the all time greatest list in a National. Ate a LOT too.