Hi all
It’s that time of year
My Endura Singletrack and MT500 “Spray” pants need a DWR refresh. To be honest it never took much rain or much of a puddle to drench them
Maybe DWR is just crap in the presence of the kind of ground water / rain we get in uk?
Seems much less good than the old environment damaging stuff, not that I’d prefer to use that and f***k up the planet/woods.

I’ve used Nikwax TX direct spray in the past (on damp garments as recommended)but not been too impressed.
Wash in TX direct is no good as it kills the breathability of any lining. Not that Nikwax make that plain. There’s nothing about suitability on the bottle I have here. (Wah-in TX Kkilled my Buffalo Teclite, which is still sweaty after 25 washes to try revitalise it)

So what the best stuff please? Probably a spray, I guess. Grangers? Seems to be popular. But does it beat the Nikwax TX direct spray?

Any particularly successful application tips very welcome.

Thanks happy trails.

Fabsil Gold.

I never got on with the spray on or wash in stuff so bought a 5L container of fabsil gold. Brushed it on my waterproofs in the spring and they have been great all summer!

Would definitely recommend

Scruff
Thx
Good tip
So that’s a Grangers Fabsil? Meant for tents and canvas car tops?
Does it affect the flexibility?

Not noticed any thickening of the garments or affecting the stiffness at all – just the same post treatment as before.

I have heard that it can affect breathability, but not noticed any detriment myself. You sweat may vary.

Scruff thanks
I guess the Fabsil spray would be easier, reading online folk do like it better than Nikwax. Did you try the spray or just the paint on?
thx

Wow, doing my research into the spray it sounds scary if this is true:

“Re: Waterproofing.
Post by Richard Simpson Mark II » Sat Feb 17, 2018 10:47 am

A word of caution….DO NOT INHALE any of any spray you might apply.

There was a bloke who came on here who got two lung-fulls of the stuff…it left him needing a heart-lung transplant because it sealed his lungs.

I’m not making this up…I use the wash-in product.

If you do use the spray, apply outdoors and wear a mask. Ventilate the clothing well before you go near it.

This isn’t a joke, and it’s not health and safety gone mad.

https://adventurebikerider.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=45803”

maybe I will get the paint on as you recommended Scruff!!

Also been wondering if there’s a better option than the spray on Nikwax stuff.

I can never get it to last anywhere near as long as the factory treatment.

What do they do at the factory?

r8jimbob88
I believe it’s machine coated and about twice as durable, even so the factory stuff wears off pretty quick.

Wiki says:
“More recently the chemistry is applied in the vapor phase using chemical vapor deposition (CVD) machinery. The advantages of CVD include eliminating the use of hazardous and environmentally harmful solvents in the application process; requiring less chemical; and an extremely thin waterproof layer that has less effect on the natural look and feel of the fabric.

Later advances have eliminated perfluorinated acids, considered to be potentially hazardous to human health by the US Environmental Protection Agency and numerous research studies,[1] from the application process.[citation needed]

Some researchers have suggested that the use of PFASs in water-repellent clothing is over-engineering, and comparable performance can be achieved using specific silicon- and hydrocarbon-based finishes.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durable_water_repellent

Wash in TX direct is no good as it kills the breathability of any lining. Not that Nikwax make that plain. There’s nothing about suitability on the bottle I have here. (Wah-in TX Kkilled my Buffalo Teclite,

TX direct will of killed your buffalo as it will of waterproofed the fibre pile in the jacket so it won’t wick the sweat away effectively anymore. membrane jackets – gore-tex etc work in a different fashion and don’t rely on wicking so are fine to use TX direct or grangers on – i seem to remember that goretex used to recommend nikwax TX for reproofing but i could be wrong

sofaboy73
yeah that’s right the TX Wash-in waterproofed the Buffalo’s pile lining so it can’t breathe. That jacket’s still on repeated washes to try get rid of the proofer.

I’d imagine any wicking lining would be affected in the same way, like the wicking mesh inside a Goretex jacket..

And Nikwax don’t tell you that on the package.

That’s bad IMO

this from their website – it still doesn’t advise against:
“vulnerable, older, garments from heat. Nikwax TX.Direct® Wash-In has been specifically designed and optimised for breathable waterproof garments; it leaves a flexible water repellent treatment on individual fibres allowing moisture vapour to pass through, maintaining breathability.”

Scruff I’m definitely thinking of trying the Fabsil liquid, can you comment on this, one user wrote online that Fabsil stops breathability of the fabric – what’s your take on that please mate?
Neil

I’ve not noticed any impact on it’s breathability. That said I’ve used it on my sailing waterproofs (not a particularly sweaty activity) and my active hardshell jacket, but that has pit zips…

All I can say for certain, it is worked far better than wash in stuff, even when followed instructions to the T. I hung the jackets on the washing line outside and painted with a cheap paintbrush so I could work into seams and ensure complete coverage.

Scrufff, thanks
I’m gonna buy some.
It didn’t kill your grass then?
I’m thinking on my Endura Singletrack pants to make them (more) splash proof
N

Hand wash garment in a yellow builders tub with liquid soap flakes (same as techwash), rinse, fill tub with warm water and TX, splosh around and leave to soak. Rinse, tumble dry or hang to dry then use a hairdryer over it to activate the TX.

Fabsil blocks the pores and stops breathability.

Pretty sure anything that coats the inside and outside of the garment will block any breathability…spray-on sounds like the way forward as you can make sure the inside doesn’t get coated.

RustyNissan have you personally tried Fabsil and found it blocked breathability?

Scruff has (see above) and wrote:
I’ve not noticed any impact on it’s breathability.

I’m talking about Endura Singletrack or Spray pants that are basically normal fabric with DWR. (Well the “Spray” has some localised laminate, it’s the shins that wet through after a few puddles.
I do have full laminate waterproof pants but would like the above ones to be more splash /shower proof.
Spray on TX hasn’t been enough even when just treated. I know it wears off fast.

Thanks

That jacket’s still on repeated washes to try get rid of the proofer.

Well that’s wierd. On the one hand wash in DWR doesn’t last 5 mins is a Royal PIA on the other, it has the same half life as Cesium and is as persistent as a double glazing salesmen at quarter end…

Can’t be both Shirley…?

RustyNissan have you personally tried Fabsil and found it blocked breathability?

I walk fast and really warm so struggle with membranes and wetting out/breathability.
I’ve used it on unwaxed fine thread count polycotton jacket – it went from windproof/breathable but not water resistant to blocked moisture trapper that still wetted out after awhile. Same base layers underneath and same usage of the jacket. Would be worse on gore/membranes as the pore sizes are smaller than polycotton.

I was given a small bottle (well two, it’s a system) of the Storm products when I bought my Patagonia coat form countryside stevenage

Storm Care

It works first as a wash (I think it’s just a normal eco techfabric friendly wash) then IIRC the DWR liquid goes in the conditioner thing in your machine.

Then when the wash is done you have to immediately tumble try it, which ‘bakes it in’ / activates it. Made sense to me and sounds like they’d do it in the factory?

Well that’s wierd. On the one hand wash in DWR doesn’t last 5 mins is a Royal PIA on the other, it has the same half life as Cesium and is as persistent as a double glazing salesmen at quarter end…

Can’t be both Shirley…?

It can because it depends on the actual fabric (and probably whatever DWP is already on and stuff I haven’t thought of yet….) … which is why the real answer to this thread is “what the garment manufacturer recommend” unless you have really good reason why a different product will be better on your specific garment and not wreck it.

My paramo says use tx direct wash in but the nikwax site says if it has a breathable liner use tx spray on , confused lol

I was wondering if it’s recommended to use Fabsil on clothing, so I’ve just e-mailed Fabsil and asked them. Here’s the thing though, Fabsil is actually part of Grangers. My guess, based in a really low level reasoning manner, is that Fabsil is silicone based and Grangers uses a different water-resistant chemical.

You can use silicone on clothing, Patagonia used to have a fabric treated with what they called Encapsil, which meant the individual threads had been silicone treated to repel water. I do kind of wonder if this is because treating the fabric itself does impair breathability by filling in or narrowing the space between fibres, but who knows.

I’ll let you know as and when Fabsil get back to me.

You can use silicone on clothing, Patagonia used to have a fabric treated with what they called Encapsil, which meant the individual threads had been silicone treated to repel water. I do kind of wonder if this is because treating the fabric itself does impair breathability by filling in or narrowing the space between fibres, but who knows.

That was my conclusion of fabsil (silicone) on polycotton as per my post above – that it filled in the pores between threads, not well enough to provide 100% waterproofing but enough that it blocked moisture vapour from exiting the jacket/material that it had done previously.

boblo
Free Member

That jacket’s still on repeated washes to try get rid of the proofer.
Well that’s wierd. On the one hand wash in DWR doesn’t last 5 mins is a Royal PIA on the other, it has the same half life as Cesium and is as persistent as a double glazing salesmen at quarter end…

Can’t be both Shirley…?

Well perhaps it can. There’s a big difference between a soft material like the microfleece in my Buffalo Teclite and a fabric like Pertex. Buffalo themselves told me I’d knackered it but that many repeated washes may eventually get rid of the Nikwax TX.
Given Nikwax instructions I’d be willing to bet that using it and ruining breathability of linings is a common occurrence.

That was my conclusion of fabsil (silicone) on polycotton as per my post above – that it filled in the pores between threads, not well enough to provide 100% waterproofing but enough that it blocked moisture vapour from exiting the jacket/material that it had done previously.

Potentially. Or it might cause the threads to swell slightly and effectively tighten the weave – it could be that it works okay with some fabrics and not with others. Generally polyester. for example, ‘takes’ DWR more effectively than Nylon/polyamides I’ve been told.

With all this stuff, preparation is really important as traces of, say, the wetting agents or colour brighteners that are part of most washing detergents – Persil etc – can potentially affect the way DWR treatments bond to the fabric or mask them when they’re present. All of which makes ShakeDry and OutDry Extreme look (ironically) quite attractive. If only there was a just as breathble, but tougher and brightly coloured version of ShakeDry eh.

So I heard back from Grangers re Fabsil, this is what they say about suitability for clothing use:

‘Fabsil isn’t recommended for use on technical garments such as waterproof jackets. It can impair the breathability of the jacket making the jacket not as effective as before. Additionally, Fabsil can have a negative impact on areas such as glued seams as the solvent will break down the glue in them which will weaken them and cause them to fail. We therefore recommend using a product such as Grangers Clothing Repel or Performance Repel Plus to improve the repellency of an item.’

So there you go, potentially reduced breathability plus possible damage to bonded seams and, presumably seam tape and anything else which might be glued in place, possibly reflective trim I guess etc.

BadlyWiredDog
thanks – good to have the Fabsil feedback thanks. My idea was to use it on non-laminate non seam taped items – I did write to ask so I’ll update here if they reply.

N

Thanks for the tips everyone. Looks like it’ll be Grangers as I got this from a chemist at Fabsil:

“ Hi Neil,

Sorry for the delay in responding.

Fabsil isn’t recommended for use on technical garments such as the trousers you’ve described. (Endura Singletrack)
It can impair the breathability of the garment, making the item not as effective as before. Additionally, Fabsil can have a negative impact on areas such as glued seams as the solvent will break down the glue in them which will weaken them and cause them to fail. We therefore recommend using a product such as Grangers Clothing Repel or Performance Repel Plus to improve the repellency of a Garment.

Hopefully this makes sense. Whilst Fabsil is a great repellent, we really on recommend using it on outdoor gear that you’re not going to wear as the product does carry a lot of hazard warnings.
“

Hand wash garment in a yellow builders tub with liquid soap flakes (same as techwash), rinse, fill tub with warm water and TX, splosh around and leave to soak. Rinse, tumble dry or hang to dry then use a hairdryer over it to activate the TX.

This, except I use Grangers or Storm rather than TX.