I couldn’t think of any appropriate jail / man-love euphanisms for the title.

Been in a long run debate with a builder i had last year repalcing some floors.

Long story short.
quoted for the work, for a weeks work. (required whole groudn floor to be moved upstairs including the cellar/workshop. ALl teh bedrooms got pretty cramped

they did most of the work to a good standard. However, tehy didn’t come to finish the job for two months.
When they did the quality wasn’t very good.

two loads of concrete in cellar didn’t line up to the same level,
dining room floor wasn’t level at all.

I asked for them to be fixed, no response/ general refusal.

I ended up fixing it myself as i coudln’t live with the contents of my house in the bedrooms

Paid them the bill less what i thought was fiar for the upheaval (approx £1500 off a £7000 bill inc VAT) with aletter explaining why last Septemner

They are asking for the full amount. their offer was £300.
i’ve had the boss man round ot my house earlier this year trying to suggest i pay and that given the house is on a hill, the floors would never be level. why would i suggest the internal floors be levle so i coudl lay a floor on top?

a month ago they sent me another letter suggesting i offer something else. I dropped it a furhter £500 to £1000 off the total bill.

They’ve now said that they’re referring it their legal department and are goign to pursue full amount, interest, and legal costs. I assume via small claims court.

Am i in the wrong here? should i have paid? am i going to lose far more moeny pursuing this?
What are my next steps? Lawyer, Pay up, fight it, ?

Any help/ suggestiosn greatly apprecaited as i don’t like the feeling like i’m in trouble and going to get a massive bill for their poor workmanship.
I’ve clelarly not done enough by the book but still feel i’m in the right. Am i not?

Do you have photos/evidence of the poor workmanship?

If you’re not happy with the work then you shouldn’t pay them for it but it does depend on what they quoted on. Did you have anyone else come in and say the work was sub standard?

Let them take you to small claims and see what the judge says, I don’t think it will get that far if you have enough evidence to show their work was sub standard and other professionals agree.

Have you photos of the semi-finished work?
Can you prove that you finished the work, not them?
If so, stick to your guns.

Write to tell them exactly why you aren’t paying. Their “legal department” will be a hired lawyer, I expect. Dn’t crumble, keep all correspondence

Did you write to them telling them that you would be sorting remaining issues yourself? It would help your case if you did.

Two months is totally unnacceptable and a poor job is no job at all. You have increased your offer to them so that would see you in a good light in small claims – them not so much!

I would say go to court and explain yourself – sometimes its the only way to get these things sorted. One last letter to the builder detailing the whole thing and the measures you have made to come to an agreement would help you.

You have to prove that the work that they undertook did not meet the standard required. However, I presume you had no drawings / specification stating standards required etc ? IN which case you may be on sticky ground.

Get pictures of the workmanship / problems. It may be purely down to the interpretation of the judge at the time. However, you must provide a reasonable breakdonw of how you have suffered loos to the tune of £1500. You cant just pluck a figure out of the air, it needs to be a fair representation of the losses and inconvenice suffered, otherwise you will just come accross as a client stiffing his builder.

In your situation I’d call the builder and see if you can come up with an amicable agreement before you are all dragged to the small claims. You can represent yourself there though… you dont NEED a lawyer.

i’ve had the boss man round ot my house earlier this year trying to suggest i pay and that given the house is on a hill, the floors would never be level. why would i suggest the internal floors be levle so i coudl lay a floor on top?

I’m pretty sure that wet concrete will find it’s own level with in the confines of four walls.

As above make sure you have everything documented, photos etc. Get an expert report to rubbish their excuses and see them in court. It’s most likely a bluff to scare you into paying.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say it’s a bluff. Quite probably, they think they are right. Some of the facts may be somewhat open to interpretation, and even when people are wrong, they are usually genuinely mistaken rather than making stuff up. Nevertheless, it sounds like you have acted very reasonably and have a pretty good case. I’d defend it, assuming the effort it takes (which probably isn’t very much) is worth the 1500 quid. I don’t think there is much risk of any worse outcome than just having to pay the bill in full anyway.

The Citizens Advice Bureau provides an advice sheet on dealing with disputes with builders which can be downloaded from their website.

you must provide a reasonable breakdonw of how you have suffered loos to the tune of £1500. You cant just pluck a figure out of the air, it needs to be a fair representation of the losses and inconvenice suffered, otherwise you will just come accross as a client stiffing his builder.

Is it not a valid argument to say that it’s 80% of the agreed price as they’ve completed 80% of the work, perhaps?

I’d defend it, assuming the effort it takes (which probably isn’t very much) is worth the 1500 quid.

I’d defend it because they’re probably expecting you to panic at the threat of court and just roll over.

Chances are you will go to arbitration and not straight to the small claims court itself, just make sure you have all you information documents picture’s etc.

Arbitration is also not done face to face, but by someone speaking to both parties in turn and then trying to agree a compromise that both parties are happy with.

I’ve got a similar problem. Fixed price, documented scope variations that were agreed inc costs. Agreed to release contingency. Get to the end and get another bill for 10 grand which can’t reasonably be explained. Refuses to actually read the breakdown we provided of his costs. I’ve given up, trespassed him last Friday and pointed him at my lawyer. Happy to argue in court as I’m now more sure he probably owes me 4 grand and I want it back.

I’d defend it because they’re probably expecting you to panic at the threat of court and just roll over.

This. Massively.

a month ago they sent me another letter suggesting i offer something else. I dropped it a furhter £500 to £1000 off the total bill.

I think the fact they are accepting a lower offer is admission/proof enough that they theselves already admit the work is substandard, so it’s a simple question of negotiation now. Wheather that figure has to be decided by a court or not.

£1500 is a small claim, and legal fees are inadmissible as costs for small claims, as it’s designed to be an accessible informal court where you represent yourself. If you choose to hire a solicitor, thats at your cost, and if you win, you cant claim it from the losing side.

OP – you are not “being taken to small claims court” you are being threatened with being taken to court. It is at least one step removed! At small claims they won’t get their legal costs, they can get their court costs (off top of my head about £50 and perhaps some legit other costs – but NOT their lawyers fees for (i) preparing the case or (ii) representing them in court. (Likewise you would not get the same if you won – so are probably best not “lawyering up”). Their lawyer knows they won’t get the fees, he knows he will have to waste a huge amount of time sitting around in court – he really doesn’t want to do that for £1500 and then issue his client with a bill for his time that probably wipes out most or all of that (or if he’s good enough to win possibly costs more than the award!). Especially since you don’t hand over cash immediately on losing and the builder still has to get that money (or get it enforced etc.). Even more so if the lawyer isn’t local to you as the case should be heard at your “local” court.

I have no idea who will win at court if it ever gets that far (and nobody here can guess that as we will only ever have your side of the story); pictures, evidence, clear communications before during and after the dispute arose will help. Other things can help, like quotes from other builders that show his quote wasn’t unusually cheap, or for the cost of putting right his poor levels etc. A written contract with clear specifications obviously helps further – if there is such a thing check for a clause on dispute resolution (you can either then remind them or save it as a potential basis for having the case thrown out at court if they haven’t followed it).

Chances are you will go to arbitration and not straight to the small claims court itself, just make sure you have all you information documents picture’s etc.

Arbitration is also not done face to face, but by someone speaking to both parties in turn and then trying to agree a compromise that both parties are happy with.

You are not describing arbitration – you are describing mediation. Arbitration is (usually) binding, is not about compromise – but judging who is right, and often results in a “winner” rather than both parties being happy.

Not a lawyer but …..

I think you may have made a rod for your own back relenting slightly and a greeting to a lower value apportioned to the work not completed to a satisfactory state.

I think the referral to solicitors may be scaremongering given your already partial relent.

I would either:

1) defend any claim in a small claims court providing I had all the evidence that will be required to defend the case

or

2) look to agree a revised final instalment based on the outstanding work not having been completed to a satisfactory state. I would do this at a meeting in your home followed by a letter.

Not a lawyer though.

look to agree a revised final instalment

I think I’d be trying to rescind the £500 peace offering and stick to your original settlement at this point. Fight bastard with bastard. (-:

Not a lawyer either…

I don’t think there is much risk of any worse outcome than just having to pay the bill in full anyway.

Ever tried obtaining credit with a CCJ (even a fully discharged / paid one) against your name?

(IANAL)

As said, the threat of taking it to court is just that, to encourage you to pay up.

You have every right to hold back money if you feel the job is not satisfactory. If there’s enough evidence of that then if it went to court the judge may just chuck it out and tell them to do one, or quick ruling in your favour. In small claims they seem to rule on the side of sensible and there aren’t expensive lawyers forcing it one way.

Whatever you do, if it actually does go to court, do not fail to turn up! Instant ruling against you usually and a CC judgement.

trying to suggest i pay and that given the house is on a hill, the floors would never be level

😆

Not a lawyer but have been reading up on Small Claims due to having an outstanding Parking Charge Notice that I am refusing to pay.

As others above have said…

1) You’re not getting taken to court yet. This is just a threat. The have to issue you a clear ‘Letter Before Claim’ before they do that. Most likely this is a threat to try and get you to fold.

2) In CC they can’t claim all costs. Just the court fee and reasonable time which I believe is limited to £20 an hour. So if the court judged against you they would probably only award £200 above what they are claiming. But it works for you too – you can claim reasonable time if they find in your favour.

3) IMHO IANAL the fact you made a slightly better offer just shows the judge you are reasonable and trying to reach an agreement. If you put it in writing then the words ‘without prejudice’ might help a bit.

Part of the claim process will request you to mediate. Which of course you should accept.

Just to add you will only have a problem with a CCJ if they find against you AND you DON’T pay within the court timescales.

If your description is correct, I can’t really see why you’d fold. I would get in touch with citizen’s advice, and if you are going to have to employ a lawyer make it clear in writing to them that you will pursue your legal costs (depending of course what anyone who is a lawyer or more qualified than me says).

Clearly this is at least in part a fear tactic, clearly it’s working.

Id retract the offer to reduce to £1000, which was in itself a goodwill gesture, now that they have completely thrown that in your face by threatening court action.

You are entirely in the right and should tell them to carry on and you’ll see’ em there!

polly is basically right . Small Claims is nothing to be scared of and will be decided on your evidence if you are compelling your word will be enough but the more evidence you have the better . If they are uping the anti i would do the same and write back withdrawing your offer to settle and going to your original £1500 off pointing out they are in breach of contract detail what they did wrong , breach of implied terms reasonable care and skill will do to reasonable standard and in reasonable time.
as has been said this is a scare tactic their legal dept is probably fictional their external lawyers probably charge about £150 per hour plus vat which would not be recovered in the small claims court.
i am a lawyer this is mates advise not professional no liability accepted.

Id retract the offer to reduce to £1000, which was in itself a goodwill gesture, now that they have completely thrown that in your face by threatening court action.

That for me too

Empty threat IMO – not worth the hassle for them.

Retract your claim reduction and stick to your guns on this.

The fact that they did not complete the work despite repeated requests is enough to kill their case stone dead – you’d be within your rights to call in a pro to finish it and backcharge accordingly.

Anything you have to back up your requests for completion etc will help you of course.

If only I’d read everyone else’s posts properly before mine…

£1500 is a small claim, and legal fees are inadmissible as costs for small claims, as it’s designed to be an accessible informal court where you represent yourself. If you choose to hire a solicitor, thats at your cost, and if you win, you cant claim it from the losing side.

Most home insurance includes legal assistance, I’d check mine and call them if I were you real advice from professionals.

their external lawyers probably charge about £150 per hour plus vat which would not be recovered in the small claims court

They are not criminal lawyers you know – probably more like £200!

Edlong – Ever tried obtaining credit with a CCJ (even a fully discharged / paid one) against your name?

Shouldn’t be a CCJ though, even if he loses. Contrary to what the “claimant” might try to imply, a CCJ only applies if you aren’t paying AFTER the court has clarified (or you’ve admitted) that it is due, not whilst there is an ongoing dispute.

Most home insurance includes legal assistance, I’d check mine and call them if I were you real advice from professionals.

have you ever tried using them? second hand accounts to me suggest that most are not much help, and more likely to tell you to settle (costs them nothing).

Just to add you will only have a problem with a CCJ if they find against you AND you DON’T pay within the court timescales.

If you end up at this point, offer £10/month, set up a direct debit.

IANAL but I don’t think you’ll get a CCJ if the small claims court finds against you; only if you refuse to pay up and they get a further County Court order against you. CCJ = County Court judgement.

I would fight it.
Write to the builder rescinding your peace offering and suggest he takes better legal advice. If after listening to said better advice he still wants to take proceedings against you, you’d be happy to meet him in court, and may even consider a counter action against him…
He’ll bother you no more!

Sticky,

Receipts? / did you serve notice? / specification? / independent expert review? Cost breakdown?

They are bluffing. Hopefully you made the offers with a rider of “without prejudice” in any case you have grounds to have withheld a portion of the payment for the reasons you mentioned. Persoanlly I would not have budged from then£1500 offer until they had come up with a much better mumber than £300

Also “their legal department” 😀 if theynhad such a thing you’d already have had letters off of them

If it were me I would stick to my guns as it sounds like a Bluff. But if you are the worrying kind and having sleepless nights over it then send the extra £500 in a cheque, recorded delivery, with a letter detailing the costs and disruption you have suffered and state that it is full and final settlement. Then, if it does go any further, the court will see you have done everything you said you would and they have a lot less to argue about.

BTW the flat floor vs house on hill thing is total BS and puts them firmly in cowboy territory. Does their letterhead or van include any trade association or quality logos? If so, you might want to go on the offensive with them.

They’ve now said that they’re referring it their legal department

Brenda who only works on Tuesdays.

If you have receipts for remedial work then be specific of how much you have had to pay to get the job finished, rather than fining them a random amount. If that’s £1500, don’t backslide, it makes you look like you want to pay more.

Then make them a final offer in writing, without predudice, and after that you will see them in court.

Keep all evidence and correspondence.

If they haven’t completed the work that has been quoted, how can they expect full payment? It’s hard to imagine how it could go against you.