Be careful what you film!

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  • Be careful what you film!
  • b r
    Member

    http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/articles.aspx?cp-documentid=152413365&ocid=today

    You got to feel for this poor guy, and boy, a womens scorn…

    Premier Icon MartynS
    Subscriber

    No, you haven't got to feel for him.. he's a criminal who got caught and punished for a criminal act.

    Premier Icon tomdebruin
    Subscriber

    The woman, who cannot be identified, said she had needed counselling after she found out what he had done. She stated she was too ashamed to tell her family what had happened and said it left her "feeling violated, dirty and sick".

    Well he shouldn't have done it without their permission, and he was sentenced as he should be, but needing counselling? Unless he put it on the internet and it's everywhere… and why on earth would you tell your family anyway? "Mum, I had sex last night and it was filmed." "How nice dear."

    And he really should have had some kind of secret labeling system.

    Premier Icon tomdebruin
    Subscriber

    actually no, he shouldn't be on the sex offenders register.

    Premier Icon lowey
    Subscriber

    I'll keep my eyes peeled on red tube for some of this stash.

    b r
    Member

    No, you haven't got to feel for him.. he's a criminal who got caught and punished for a criminal act.

    Hands up who knew it was a criminal act?

    coffeeking
    Member

    It only ever became a problem when the girlfriend decided to distribute it. It may not have been a morally right thing to do, but the girlfriend caused the distress and anger.

    so if you've not been told it's a criminal act then that's OK?

    Come on, your B**lsh*t meter must go off when you think about covertly filming yourself having sex with someone else … don't tell me you're naive enough to think that's an innocent act

    Putting him on the sex offenders register (and so lumping him in with the paedos) seems very harsh as at the end of the day the sex itself seems to have been consensual (at least there seems to be no rape charge attached) but to suggest that this is the fault of the women and we should feel sorry for this guy being a perv is just silly.

    oh, and is this guy a mountainbiker? Otherwise seems a bit OffToipc iyam

    /edit; and coffeeking; do you honestly believe that up until the point that the GF told the (i'm going to call her the victim) that she had been vieoed without her knowledge having sex with a guy that nothing untoward had happened? Moral compasses at the ready please, this ship is waaaay off course.

    Im just not sure how anyone gains from locking him up and putting him on the sex offenders register. Not only does it cost the tax payer money it also devalues the register !

    Anyone remember Patrick from the TV show coupling….?

    psychle
    Member

    seems a bit excessive… he didn't distribute the films, they were hidden away 'for personal use' and in reality, no one was harmed until the girlfriend uncovered them and decided to act as she did…

    so in effect, she's the guilty party guv'ner!

    coffeeking
    Member

    to suggest that this is the fault of the women and we should feel sorry for this guy being a perv is just silly.

    No-one was blaming the women?

    do you honestly believe that up until the point that the GF told the (i'm going to call her the victim) that she had been vieoed without her knowledge having sex with a guy that nothing untoward had happened?

    Did you even read my post?

    But at the end of the day, if the tapes had never been found and no-one was harmed in the making of it, what would it matter? It was the act of forwarding it to the "stars" of the film that caused the problems, otherwise in the grand scheme of things it would have made no difference to anyone. I'm not saying it was morally right, but at the end of the day, who gives a damn? If an ex had me on tape and kept it to herself, and I didn't know about it, what difference would it make to me? None, whatsoever. If she showed it to mates, sure I'd be annoyed, but without that it's ultimately little different to remembering it in your head at a later date, do you wan't people to bleach their minds after splitting up with you?

    Premier Icon BoardinBob
    Subscriber

    he didn't distribute the films, they were hidden away 'for personal use' and in reality, no one was harmed until the girlfriend uncovered them and decided to act as she did…

    Get a grip.

    So if i head down down the family changing rooms at the local swimming pool and film some kids getting undressed but keep the footage "hidden away for personal use" then it's ok?

    psychle
    Member

    that's not the privacy of your own home is it? and filming kids is a social taboo and clearly illegal under our criminal code…

    I think what he's done is dubious/wrong, but in essence fairly harmless, he's punishment is excessive IMO, it'll have ruined his life, which doesn't fit the 'crime' at all.

    coffeeking
    Member

    So if i head down down the family changing rooms at the local swimming pool and film some kids getting undressed but keep the footage "hidden away for personal use" then it's ok?

    Get a grip yourself bob, thats a wholely different situation and you know it. Nothing happened on the tape that the other partner didn't agree to do with the defendant and enjoy, unlike being filmed in the changing rooms. The only argument that is put forward is that the recording of the acts was wrong. I just struggle to understand that. (no, I've not done it, before people cast ideas about lol).

    Munqe-chick
    Member

    You can't just film yourself having sex without the other persons consent, does it really matter whether or not he kept it for his own personal use at home. Sex offenders start small, not saying he will go on to commit further however sex offenders start with "smaller" offences such as exposure or voyeurism. He was a f***ing idiot in my opinion.

    rkk01
    Member

    About as morally wrong as having hidden CCTV cameras everywhere – in public and private spaces. I have no idea whether friends and acquaintances have CCTV in or around their homes…..

    What we have here appears to be a case of double standards. Certainly what he did was morally dubious, but how different is it to having surveillance cameras everywhere?

    Is it safe to assume (for legal purposes) that the bedroom is camera free, but the entrance lobby might have a security camera??? – no quickies on the stairs then…

    Dickyboy
    Member

    Given the amount of material that ends up on the net, I think that "covertly" filming should certainly be discouraged. Putting him on the sex offenders register may be a bit steep, but then again his actions do display a certain tendancy….

    Dickyboy
    Member

    rkk01 – fine with it if he'd put up signs warning partners of the cameras in the smoke alarm etc!

    Voyeurism is a crime of a sexual nature, re the SO register I guess consider the fact that this guy might set up cameras overlooking other peoples windows etc, and that this would then remove the "consensual" element, it just becomes perving doesn't it?

    He;s had his kicks of sleeping with these girlfriends (fair enough), videoing it (if that floats your boat), without their consent (creepy/perverted……)

    rkk01
    Member

    My post was typed off fairly quickly and is a bit muddled for it….

    … but in a society where surveillance is so pervasive, could it be argued that the norms become blurred?

    If the pictures were taken on privat eproperty, with th eproperty owners permission, is it just the monkey business that makes it illegal?

    joemarshall
    Member

    Get a grip yourself bob, thats a wholely different situation and you know it. Nothing happened on the tape that the other partner didn't agree to do with the defendant and enjoy, unlike being filmed in the changing rooms.

    No it's exactly the same. Nothing happens in the changing rooms at a swimming pool that the kids and parents there didn't agree to do. In both situations, the person doesn't mind doing what they're doing, but hasn't agreed to be filmed doing it.

    But at the end of the day, if the tapes had never been found and no-one was harmed in the making of it, what would it matter? It was the act of forwarding it to the "stars" of the film that caused the problems, otherwise in the grand scheme of things it would have made no difference to anyone.

    Yeah, but that is surely why we have laws against covert filming of private acts generally (you aren't allowed to record telephone calls without consent either). It makes no difference to anyone except in the case that it becomes public, which as we see here is very much a possibility.

    Joe

    coffeeking, you said

    the girlfriend caused the distress and anger

    so yes, you did blame the GF, even if you did start with "well, it may not have been morally right"

    That's like saying having your house burgled is your fault for leaving the door open or getting raped is your fault for the way you dressed. Or indeed the fault of a crime lies with the one who reported it.

    he whole timbre of this thread is "ooh, poor guy, he was just enjoying himself on his own time" which is nonsense.

    thisisnotaspoon

    If the pictures were taken on privat eproperty, with th eproperty owners permission, is it just the monkey business that makes it illegal?

    to extend the previous poster's analogy; if you owned a gym, would you feel free to video the kids or whoever in changing rooms and loos? would that be right or wrong, legal or illegal? what is non-consensual in that situation aside from the act of videoing?

    IanMunro
    Member

    I'm quite surprised that this is a criminal case. I'd have thought that the nature of voyeurism was observing other people rather than recording yourself participating in events. But maybe I'm being naive here.

    IanMunro
    Member

    (you aren't allowed to record telephone calls without consent either)

    I don't think that's entirely true. AFAIK You're allowed to record conversation you make with other people for your personal record without their consent. It's just not admissible as evidence.

    joemarshall
    Member

    nature of voyeurism was observing other people rather than recording yourself participating in events

    It wouldn't be illegal if it was just him having a **** – the point is that there were other people and they didn't know they were being filmed (and could have had a reasonable expectation not to be filmed, given the private nature of the situation).

    Joe

    rkk01
    Member

    The changing room analogy is different – public space and children involved.

    telephone calls are allowed to be recorded if you are one of the parties on the call – remember the taped Gordon Brown / bereaved soldier's mother's call…

    gravitysucks
    Member

    Def guilty put don't aggree with the punishment when you look at other crimes and the punishment these criminals get.

    He's basically highlighted himself as a potential threat as he might video the public, or he might video his neighbours, or he might post the videos on the tinterweb, or he might sell the films and become a millionaire……

    Thats a lot of maybe's to be placed on the sex offender's register.

    Come on everyone's a pervert behind close doors in someones eyes. This bloke just pushed the limits….

    Besides keeping hard copy dvd's with peoples names on is just a rookie mistake ๐Ÿ˜‰

    joemarshall
    Member

    I don't think that's entirely true. AFAIK You're allowed to record conversation you make with other people for your personal record without their consent. It's just not admissible as evidence.

    Oh yeah, looks like you're right – as long as you give them to a third party.

    http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/oftel/consumer/advice/faqs/prvfaq3.htm

    cranberry
    Member

    I think that he's been a total shit for recording what went on not just without the consent of the other willing participant in the deeds, but by taking steps to do it covertly.

    That said, I think that jail time and 10 years on the SO register is way over the top given that the films seem to have been made for his own, err, enjoyment, and that he didn't try to make them public in any way.

    As for the woman involved saying "she had needed counselling after she found out what he had done. She stated she was too ashamed to tell her family what had happened and said it left her "feeling violated, dirty and sick". All the video was, AFAIK was a documentary record of the acts that she willingly took part in – a touch of WTFU is required on her part.

    rkk01

    The changing room analogy is different – public space and children involved.

    don't think so; My Gym, My land, but OK

    take the kids and public classification out of the equation; I put a video in the loo and shower in my home (or indeed the office at the company that I own). Your mum comes round for dinner friends, relatives etc come round to stay, I film them having a poo, taking a shower making love, beating off etc

    right or wrong? Legal or illegal?

    The judge says it's illegal, I agree with him. As I said, I think putting him on the sex offenders register is harsh (someone said it well; it cheapens the register itself) but for the rest of it? I think he got what he deserved, I'm just shocked at so many apologists suggesting that so long as it was for his own use then well, what harm has he done?

    IanMunro
    Member

    Phew! My stash of phone sex MP3s is still fine ๐Ÿ™‚

    Munqe-chick
    Member

    The fact that he filmed it for his own sexual gratification is where he commits the offence (as well as without the other parties consent).

    cranberry
    Member

    Munqe-chick – out of interest, do you have to show that he would have recorded it for his own gratification then in order to get a prosecution ?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Immoral, yes. Criminal, yes. Sex offender… nah

    Seems to me that we need a Sex Offenders League Table, rather than a simple list. ๐Ÿ™‚

    toys19
    Member

    I don't get this, if I was a sun reporter and I filmed Gordon Brown having sex with a secret girlfriend isn't that voyeurism? You do not here of papparazi getting done for this. It is a bloody double standard. I'm not defending the bloke, it was foolish but I think prison/sex offenders register is harsh.

    toys19
    Member

    GrahamS – Member

    Immoral, yes. Criminal, yes. Sex offender… nah

    Seems to me that we need a Sex Offenders League Table, rather than a simple list.

    There is talk of this.

    Basically it is well known that criminalising people makes them more likely to commit crimes in the future as they are now effectively cut off from normal society. Being on the sex offenders register will make it tough for this guy to rehabilitate himself effectively.

    clubber
    Member

    Interesting one and I'll bet there'll be a load of people hurredly hiding/destroying all sorts of secretly recorded stuff when they hear about this case…

    What he did was clearly immoral and illegal and as such a punishment is perfectly reasonable. What I am suprised at and don't agree with is the severity of the punishment – it does seem overly harsh to me on the face of it though this is dependent on a few things – eg that he didn't ever intend to use the videos to blackmail/etc or to publish further and also that what was videoed wasn't in some way played out as a performance specific to the fact that it was being filmed – maybe consensual but manipulated into?

    Obviously we only ever hear the bare bones of the case in the reporting – maybe there is more to it than we know.

    coffeeking
    Member

    so yes, you did blame the GF, even if you did start with "well, it may not have been morally right"

    That's like saying having your house burgled is your fault for leaving the door open or getting raped is your fault for the way you dressed. Or indeed the fault of a crime lies with the one who reported it.

    No, I think you've kinda missed the point. It was his current GF who took the video to see the ex. The ex had no knowledge until she took it round;

    Question a few things (I'm open minded and willing to give the benefit of the doubt here):
    1) Why did she take it around, think about the mentality of that – I've found my boyfriends ex's on tape, I know what I'll do – I'll go and ask if they consented to it. Or "I'm jealous he has vids of her, I'll see if I can stir up trouble".
    2) The videos were in the loft, boxed, gone. Found by current GF, not being watched, actively in his DVD player. How many of us here would take their partner to the police if they found their partner was taping them for fun? I know I wouldn't, I'd be amused and possibly flattered. But there's no suggestion that he was hoarding them and using them for years after being with them etc.
    3) If you found videos of your other half with ex's, is the first thing that comes to mind "go and find the ex to ask if it was consensual"?

    I know I'm playing devils advocate here but:

    Clearly it was morally borderline, and obviously the judge/lawyers have found a law to catch it under (for all we know he may be well known to them but nothing proven until now) making it illegal, but the punishment is well OTT and you have to question the motives of the person reporting it, without which the crime would have been "victimless". I recognise your gym/changing room analogy but I don't agree with it entirely, I think there are some subtle differences. This begs the same questions as the CCTV arguments always do though, why do you care if someone is filming you especially if you agreed to do the act in front of the person who's fimed it?

    Ultimately, while it's a bit grim when you know about it, if someone finds me that attractive that they want to watch me getting undressed in the evening then so long as I don't find out and it doesn't get spread round the internet they can do what the hell they like. It's had no effect on me at all. This approach doesn't extend to kids simply because kids should not be viewed in a sexual nature, that's horrific in itself without recording etc. But at the end of the day there are PLENTY of "weirdos" out there who find womens feet and shoes very sexy, they could no doubt film in a street or take photos and go home and use that for sexual gratification once then lobs the video in a box that gets shoved in the loft. Does this differ? Legally they are doing nothing wrong, just videoing in a public place, this is fully legal as it's not a sexual act being video'd, so the only difference I can see is "the act" being filmed, and whether that act is deemed OK or not depends on whether you have a very very prude mind or a very very crude mind, and where you draw that line.

    Both cases the "actor" is doing something consensual.
    Both cases the filming is done without you knowing.
    Both cases they're done for gratification.

    Awaits all the threads asking how to safely dispose of home video/dvd's without detection.

    Totally over the top. Poor bloke has unfortunately ploughed a couple of girls that are attention seekers. As mentioned above, most normal people would laugh at it. All they had to do was ask him to destroy the dvd's and i am pretty sure that would have been the end of it.

    All he has done is record an act that both parties consented to. A bit like his memory. He hasnt displayed it or distributed it (That would be a different matter)

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