Is this distinction purely because the BBC receives ‘public’ money whereas C4 is commercially self-funded through advertising and sponsorship?

I think the distinction is the Tories want the BBC to be more pro-Tory so are just coming up with ways to try and turn the public against it so they can manipulate it more with any public outrage. Plenty of public sector workers are paid more than the PM.

Your attitude is a bit like the person who walks into the local library and says they only read crime thrillers so don’t want to have their council tax used to pay for all the other books they never intend to read. You are not meant to read it all. There is choice of output to suit all tastes so there is something right for you. The fact that they produce stuff to put on BBC4 for weirdos ( 😉 ) should be something you rejoice about. If the BBC output was measured by cost per view I suspect your choice of BBC2 and BBC4 would be being subsidised by the great unwashed strictly nonsense watchers. You need some populist dross on the BBC to keep the unthinking majority satisfied and prepared to pay the fee so that they have the cash to make the good shizzle (which the unthinking majority might accidentally happen upon and get the benefit too).

I think the distinction is the Tories want the BBC to be more pro-Tory so are just coming up with ways to try and turn the public against it so they can manipulate it more with any public outrage. Plenty of public sector workers are paid more than the PM.

what a surprise, its all the Tories fault…

what a surprise, its all the Tories fault…

Its a completely manufactured situation. No one should be at all surprised that the BBC pay their big names big money, everyone else in the industry does (probably slightly more). Whole thing is a none event dressed up as a massive scandal – totally pointless unless you’re intention is to try and cause the BBC as much grief as possible.

The same argument could be applied to Council Tax, Income Tax etc …
I don’t use many of the facilities that the council provide so why should I pay for them? I can’t stand football, so why should I pay for it?

But as a society surely we have a moral & social responsibility to ensure that all needs, tastes etc are included and provided for.

I don’t really enjoy football (I haven’t seen a match for over 40 years and have no wish to) but I happen to live on a road near the local football ground.

It’s a pain with parking and stuff but I honestly don’t mind them parking considerately and having their fun. (And to be fair its mostly a family type group and they don’t chuck all sorts of rubbish in my garden)
Obviously I’d prefer they didn’t block the road but they mostly seem to try and not inconvenience the residents.

On the other hand I do enjoy cycling… even road 😀 but I really don’t lie when they close my road for a cycling event. (As its not the EVENT but 06:00 through 16:00 usually) …and in this time I’m not even allowed to take a bike out off my drive. I usually have to park my car with 2 bikes (worth more than the car) a couple of miles away …

Not only that but unlike the football supporters they stand on my wall (twice I’ve had to repair it) and throw rubbish in my garden. The main objection is they take the piss…. races rarely start before 08:00 or 09:00 earliest yet the road is blocked from 06:00 … after the event finishes they don’t reopen until 16:00 – even if the last competitor passed through at 12:00.

Stuff like council tax is the same….
I don’t mind paying for services so long as they don’t take the piss!

If I visit the council offices I don’t expect to have £1000 sofa’s in a waiting area or such… I expect that they spend the money they take wisely and resources can perform the functions adeuately but not luxuriously.

Back on the BBC .. I expect the same. (as they are spending other peoples money)

I don’t personally watch football .. but all they need is someone that can adequately do commentary … I can’t see how 100k/yr (technically half a year) isn’t way more than they need to get someone competent (some retired coach or 3rd division player)

If they covered the TdF or an MTB WC then I expect the same. If someone wanted 1M then it doesn’t matter how competent or not they are because there are loads of people who would do the job perfectly well for a tiny percentage.

Obviously I can’t speak for football exactly but I can say from cycling that my enjoyment of attaching the MTB WC’s is no different with any specific commentators … even some of them obviously have no idea whatsoever but I’m happy if they can get the race numbers and competitors correct….

Half the commentary is irrelevant and just uninformed speculation anyway … such as why a specific footballer was dropped… or why a specific DH racer decided to go back to 27.5 or an XC races chose a HT/FS for a specific course etc.

Despite his the BBC seem to think that some gold plated football coverage is somehow worth
£1,750,000 – £1,799,999 in salary alone (for one presenter).

If I visit the council offices I don’t expect to have £1000 sofa’s in a waiting area or such… I expect that they spend the money they take wisely and resources can perform the functions adeuately but not luxuriously.

Would you make that statement if reversed into your salary discussion at work – vis a vis “…please just pay me what I need for a mediocre lifestyle, no need for any more you can keep the payrise…”? Would you heck.

Your attitude is a bit like the person who walks into the local library and says they only read crime thrillers so don’t want to have their council tax used to pay for all the other books they never intend to read.

Nope … I don’t personally use the library (having gone electronic) but I think they should have a good selection of books.
However they should also at least have some informative or well written books over comics … and if the money won’t go round then some books should be prioritised.

Mostly however I don’t support they have First Edition hardcovers … and the carpets are not handmade and £100,000 a piece … etc.

If someone wants a private members only library with 1st edition hardcovers … and handmade carpets from some obscure tribe in Iran … etc. that’s fine but not out of public money.

Same with stuff like the sports centre that I do use.
Changing rooms, showers etc. are just that… I don’t want or need gold plated taps or nautilus gym equipment… There is a David Lloyds gym (entrances are 300m apart) … where people can pay for private cubicles… the most expensive machines etc.

However they should also at least have some informative or well written books over comics

Is this you saying you don’t think there is any quality output from the BBC? If so you need to look harder.

As for the rest, whilst I get your point and looking from the normal person’s perspective some of those wages are massive, paying for the whole lot of them is a vanishingly small sum of money in the grand scheme of things. The whole wage bill for the 96 people listed is 0.7% of the national licence fee. My household contribution to Lineker and Evans’ combined income is 15p. I’m not going to get too stressed for 15p.

The whole wage bill for the 96 people listed is 0.7% of the national licence fee.

Although, as has been pointed out, many of the listed will be earning much more through deals with their production companies etc.

Would you make that statement if reversed into your salary discussion at work – vis a vis “…please just pay me what I need for a mediocre lifestyle, no need for any more you can keep the payrise…”? Would you heck.

What’s the relevance ???

My company depends on my skills and expertise to sell to make a profit and will only keep me whilst I make a profit. This is on a quarter by quarter basis…. I have to prove my value every financial quarter and if I fail to do that I lose my job … at best I might get a stay across 1Q. (if I can show I make a net profit the next quarter or aggregate over YTD.).. if not I lose my job.

There is a direct link between revenue and my salary… and profit vs cost …

There is no magic money pot …. like the BBC. My costs are project by project and financial quarter by financial quarter. If a client cancels a project (due to change in their circumstances not my work) and I don’t make a profit that quarter I lose my job.

If the company doesn’t make (enough) profit that quarter I may lose my job regardless.

So if the BBC wish to run at a profit I’m fine so scrap the license fee and sack anyone who can’t show a profit each quarter (like a commercial company would).

If the council want to spend on £1000 sofas for the waiting room then this should not come out of Council tax but out of a profit they make independent of council tax.

Everyone else in the industry does (probably slightly more). Whole thing is a none event dressed up as a massive scandal – totally pointless unless you’re intention is to try and cause the BBC as much grief as possible.

The point is they are not in the same industry, the charter is in place to provide a service as a state owned broadcaster not compete directly with private sector for ratings on Saturday night or multiple radio stations to squeeze the private stations.

This is the point i feel is glossed over with this information, who cares what sky pays staff, but i very much do care what they pay BBC staff, the same as i care what they pay civil servants or MP’s (if i’m paying)

As for the rest, whilst I get your point and looking from the normal person’s perspective some of those wages are massive, paying for the whole lot of them is a vanishingly small sum of money in the grand scheme of things. The whole wage bill for the 96 people listed is 0.7% of the national licence fee. My household contribution to Lineker and Evans’ combined income is 15p. I’m not going to get too stressed for 15p.

This is just the wage bill ….

It’s not even just about the income of these two but it’s an indication of how the BBC spends other peoples money.

I felt they turned the story to gender pay gap, and away from “look at the ridiculous money we pay some staff for reading news” compare to the PM and ministers.

When it comes to the absolute level of pay rightly or wrongly it’s a competitive market for these people so without knowing what ITV/C4/Sky/Newspaper journalists and editors/Netflix etc etc are paid it’s pretty academic.

BBC can’t just be a “market failure” producing ‘unpopular’ content that no-one else will make. It only works with scale and support. That means producing popular programmes presented by people that appeal to the public. They have a market value. It’s surprising what it is in some cases (Steve Wright and Jeremy Vine? There are no other national radio stations with the scale of R2 – where would they go?)

However, the gender gap is quite something to see. It’s undoubtably unfair but it probably reflects the latent sexism in our society. You have to assume the market value for female presenters is lower – again would be itnerested to see the same figures and breakdown for the organisations beating up the BBC on this.

who cares what sky pays staff,

Genuine question – would you care if you subscribed to Sky (assuming you don’t)?

When I employ a plumber to do a job, I’m quite intrigued what other people pay a plumber. It kind of helps me to work out if my plumber is good value for money or I’m getting shafted.

Without the BBC, Sky would just turn into Fox News, a right wing propaganda machine.

What rubbish, Sky, like ITV, has to comply with impartiality rules set out by Ofcom. A regime that the BBC now have to comply with to so there is finally a level playing field. Don’t watch Sky alot but it is normally the best when a story is breaking as it is very fast on its feet.

However, the gender gap is quite something to see. It’s undoubtably unfair but it probably reflects the latent sexism in our society.

It disproportionately reflects that bias but then this is such a small sample that it’s meaningless as anything other than a sound byte.

The real gender pay gap is 9% (not 18% as the BBC kept reporting yesterday). We should definitely try to reduce that 9% to within the margin or error though.

If ever there was a nuclear war, annihilation event or that asteroid that’s about to hit the moon..

Who would deliver the message?
And would that message have an advert break ??

this is such a small sample that it’s meaningless as anything other than a sound byte.

This, too few salaries to compare, plus what hours / contract terms do they have – do they all work the same number of broadcast hours etc?

What rubbish, Sky, like ITV, has to comply with impartiality rules set out by Ofcom.

True, but that hasn’t stopped Fox News (also broadcast in the UK) from falling foul of Ofcom’s rules.

Granted, Sky has worked hard to become a respected news source, but you can still remain impartial whilst being selective in the News coverage and the stories you run …

The BBC feel they exist in a competitive environment and want to attract TV stars to enable them to compete with the other main channels – they’ll look bad if their share of TV viewers is too low and justifying the amount given to them from the TV license becomes harder.

This idea of talent is a tricky one. Clearly footballers exist in a competitive environment and the best will attract lots of money as they’re deemed to be worth so much to certain clubs – image rights, attracting supporters and sponsors, TV money….

TV companies know that the likes of Jeremy Clarkson, Jonathan Ross and Graham Norton attract lots of viewers and build TV shows around them – they heavily influence the size of TV audiences. TV companies will pay lots of money for these people in the same way football clubs do for players. Going down the salary list less people will watch a show just because, say, Nick Knowles, is involved; perhaps they love his property renovation show but do they watch a TV quiz as he’s the presenter? Maybe they do or maybe in order to keep Nick working for the BBC they give him more money and get him to do other stuff to justify?

As for women v men salaries – well that’s the price of being ‘talent’. You’re a commodity not a person and benefit greatly from that – just men do better for some reason. Some may not like them but Chris Evans and Jonathan Ross have something pretty rare and I can’t name a woman who can compete.

When I employ a plumber to do a job, I’m quite intrigued what other people pay a plumber. It kind of helps me to work out if my plumber is good value for money or I’m getting shafted.

It all depends on the plumber….
You can pay a call out and hourly rate + parts for example…. or pay a flat fee for a certain job.
If its an emergency you might pay more on a callout …. but your value might be that you don’t flood the house even though you paid more…

I personally have little or no value from Sky…. but I pay for amazon Prime and NexFlix because I feel it’s worth the value.

That’s not saying … there is nothing I’d watch on Sky…. but that the cost is nowhere near worth it.. (I had a year fee family and at the end of the year £40/mo vs more like £15/mo for both Prime and Netflix….

I personally wouldn’t pay the same for Sky…. even if it was £15/mo I wouldn’t pay for it.

As such I’m not interested in what they pay …. and I’m sure that differs hugely but in what I pay for it.

The BBC on the other hand is paid for out of extorted money.
When I cancelled Sky I didn’t get threatening letters saying they were going to take me to court and ruin my life.

The entire history of TV licensing has been based on lies… but in the past I guess broadcasting lies about detector vans was only reaching people who were actually attaching LIVE TV (and hence should have a license).

Now they are using other channels because they want to target people who don’t watch live TV.

The only reason I have a license is because my OH succumbed to the threats and paid…. we don’t even have an arial and as far as I know the iPlayer app on the Amazon box hasn’t actually been used since it was installed 3 yrs ago …. but there are websites that stream BBC and she was scared even though we don’t so she paid it on my bank card after I told her not to (which is fraud but heck)

I’m only half pissed about though because I actually do listen to BBC radio and sometimes watch world service…. but i am pissed they throw license money they have extorted about like water.

TV licensing CLAIMS it recovered 1Bn…. (as i understand)

The BBC feel they exist in a competitive environment and want to attract TV stars to enable them to compete with the other main channels – they’ll look bad if their share of TV viewers is too low and justifying the amount given to them from the TV license becomes harder.

This idea of talent is a tricky one. Clearly footballers exist in a competitive environment and the best will attract lots of money as they’re deemed to be worth so much to certain clubs – image rights, attracting supporters and sponsors, TV money….

TV companies know that the likes of Jeremy Clarkson, Jonathan Ross and Graham Norton attract lots of viewers and build TV shows around them – they heavily influence the size of TV audiences. TV companies will pay lots of money for these people in the same way football clubs do for players. Going down the salary list less people will watch a show just because, say, Nick Knowles, is involved; perhaps they love his property renovation show but do they watch a TV quiz as he’s the presenter? Maybe they do or maybe in order to keep Nick working for the BBC they give him more money and get him to do other stuff to justify?

But they don’t exist in a competitive environment .. that is almost entirely their making and perception….

they’ll look bad if their share of TV viewers is too low

but they still get the license money ….

This idea of talent is a tricky one. Clearly footballers exist in a competitive environment and the best will attract lots of money as they’re deemed to be worth so much to certain clubs – image rights, attracting supporters and sponsors, TV money….

Again, their perception …. why do we need “the best” footballers to provide commentary ???
If they cover a match I even doubt who the commentator is has any real effect on viewing figures….
People either watch that match or not…. surely if someone supports Chelsea and they are on BBC but Liverpool are playing someone they don’t care about on Sky with Gary Lineaker commenting on Sky they are not going to watch Liverpool play someone else rather than the team they support ???

TV companies know that the likes of Jeremy Clarkson, Jonathan Ross and Graham Norton attract lots of viewers and build TV shows around them – they heavily influence the size of TV audiences. TV companies will pay lots of money for these people in the same way football clubs do for players. Going down the salary list less people will watch a show just because, say, Nick Knowles, is involved

What does it matter ????
Clarkson disappeared off BBC …. some other program is in the place of Top Gear …. life goes on…

If Sky offer Ross more then he leaves …. what does it matter ???
Less people watching at a specific time ??? They are not selling advertising so why bother….

Genuine question – would you care if you subscribed to Sky (assuming you don’t)?

When I employ a plumber to do a job, I’m quite intrigued what other people pay a plumber. It kind of helps me to work out if my plumber is good value for money or I’m getting shafted.

You are correct I don’t subscribe, but if i did i wouldn’t mind paying and I wouldn’t care, as i made the decision it was a worth while expense, and then entered into an agreement to pay for it. i have no option with the TV licence if I watch a couple of programs on ITV and 4 occasionally, if i don’t i could go to prison.

If you describe this as North Korea some would reply, “bloody dictator” but in 2017 we have to pay for a TV licence to help fund a state run broadcaster and if you don’t you go to prison.

Its very odd when you think about it…

but they still get the license money ….

Maybe they wouldn’t be able to justify so much – or any – if viewing figures are down. The BBC could well disappear if they’re not interested in viewing figures – why should they pay for sports rights and to show expensive TV programs made abroad?

I don’t really care what they do as not much money involved really – though I do watch some of their output.

BTW, my bit about footballers was to compare clubs paying for top players v TV companies paying for top presenters.

Maybe they wouldn’t be able to justify so much – or any – if viewing figures are down. The BBC could well disappear if they’re not interested in viewing figures – why should they pay for sports rights and to show expensive TV programs made abroad?

So this is a question…. The problem is the BBC seems to have self created his.
To me this is similar to other budgets I often see in private companies where spending the money is compulsory or next year you get less.
However the thing here is how much less …. We are not talking about a project that has been tightly controlled and there is £1000 left at the end that pays for 20 people to have a meal out….

I don’t really care what they do as not much money involved really – though I do watch some of their output.

I beg to differ .. £4Bn is significant…. one figure I got say’s total spend on Pre-Primary and primary education is £0.7Bn so that is (according to http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_education_spending_20.html ) more than 4x the total budget spent on Primary and Pre-Primary education

BTW, my bit about footballers was to compare clubs paying for top players v TV companies paying for top presenters.

Yes but my point is football teams are trying to Win …. and premier league clubs exist to provide revenue for shareholders that is linked to winning against competitive teams.

The BBC isn’t (or shouldn’t) be competing with Sky ….. in order to generate shareholder profits like the Library is not competing with Waterstones or WH Smiths.

If BBC wants funding from public money then it shouldn’t even try to be a Sky alternative …
Equally if it (sadly IMHO) does want to go down this path then it shouldn’t get a penny from public money and generate it’s own income.

beg to differ .. £4Bn is significant…. one figure I got say’s total spend on Pre-Primary and primary education is £0.7Bn so that is (according to http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/uk_education_spending_20.html ) more than 4x the total budget spent on Primary and Pre-Primary education

Your source clearly has made an error somewhere in its calculation. Kind of obvious when you give it a moments thought – roughly the same number of kids in pre-primary & primary as there are in secondary yet your source thinks 38 times as much is spent on secondary.

Try this:-
Office for national statistics

Secondary education accounted for £36.8 billion of spending on education in 2014/15, or 44% of the total. Primary education accounted for £26.0 billion, 31% of the total, and education for the under fives accounted for £5.2 billion, 6% of the total. Spending on these three categories has remained similar since 2010/11.

So that will be 40 times less as a proportion of primary/pre-primary than you thought.

a sound byte

You need to get out more.

Could be worse, they could be earning 150 – 250k for media content while supposedly representing constituents…

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/michael-gove-paid-150000-a-year-times-column-a7437061.html

I beg to differ .. £4Bn is significant

Well I mean my contribution – similar to what I give the NT – both doing great things and give me some entertainment.

Could be worse, they could be earning 150 – 250k for media content while supposedly representing constituents…

Good job Gove got sacked from the cabinet despite Mr Murdoch’s support …

… oh hang on a minute … 😯

So that will be 40 times less as a proportion of primary/pre-primary than you thought.

I did say I had my doubts over the source but its still pretty significant if you take £4Bn and divided that up into the primary schools… or applied that to a NHS trust…

Im trying to avoid references to the NHS and buses and this is excluding other non licenses sources of funding for the BBC… but I bet its a lot more than my total local council tax but that doesn’t mean they should spend it willy nilly.

I did say I had my doubts

Did you?

We’ll clearly never agree. When all is said and done I’m glad we, the British population, have a the BBC. I’m glad it has circa £4bn a year to spend to do what it does and I’m far happier about my contribution to that than the similar amount spent on trident. No, I don’t personally consume the vast vast majority of the output (inc Lineker and Evans) but the stuff I do consume be that visual, audio or online I consider better value than a lot of other things I pay £147 a year for. I would like to see the funds raised in a different way through a different sort of taxation but I’m not going to loose any sleep about the present method for now.

The BBC isn’t (or shouldn’t) be competing with Sky

But it is and should. If the BBC was just churning out crap and employing cheap and crap presenters and nobody watched the content, then us licence fee payers would be questioning what the hell are we paying our licence fee for. In order to get the viewing figures it has to compete with the commercial channels, which means it has to bid for the ‘talent’ (hate that word) in a competitive environment. Now if the BBC is correct in what it says about there being a ‘BBC effect’ that means people are willing to earn less just for the pleasure of working for the BBC then that seems to me we’re (the licence fee payer) are getting a good deal.

The shock here is not how much people are earning – though it is a bit of an eye opener, but the gender pay gap.

It’s all a complete irrelevance; as pointed out several times ^^^ there is no context; are the contracted working hours comparable? are the programme profiles comparable? what additional income do they receive for their beeb broadcasting work?

Nothing more than a distraction.

But it is and should. If the BBC was just churning out crap and employing cheap and crap presenters and nobody watched the content, then us licence fee payers would be questioning what the hell are we paying our licence fee for.

But how does not paying Chris Evans or Gay Lineaker huge sums equate with “crap presenters” and churning out crap ??

TV SCRIPTED (DRAMA AND COMEDY)

£150,000 – £199,999 Laurie Brett – Actor Letitia Dean – Actor Tameka Empson – Actor Guy Henry – Actor Linda Henry – Actor Scott Maslen – Actor Diane Parish – Actor Hugh Quarshie – Actor Jemma Redgrave – Actor Tim Roth – Actor Catherine Shipton – Actor Gillian Taylforth – Actor Lacey Turner – Actor

£200,000 – £249,999 Peter Capaldi – Actor Danny Dyer – Actor Emilia Fox – Actor David Jason – Actor Rosie Marcel – Actor Adam Woodyatt – Actor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/3pF9MtQXRXjYwsrtXjJZ5Mr/drama-from-the-bbc

The football is the football…. regardless of who’s commentating…. if its a boring game .. it’s a boring game but the drama/comedy that the BBC used to be so good at with a very modest budget was world class.

It’s my personal opinion of course but anything with Chris Evans or Graham Norton is resoundingly crap….

The shock here is not how much people are earning – though it is a bit of an eye opener, but the gender pay gap.

I have no idea about the BBC’s gender pay gap…. I only saw the figures on page 1 … this doesn’t include hours nor anything other than a direct salary… and if you cut off at a sensible but still very good rate women seems adequately represented …

if Claudia Winkleman is being paid less than Chris Evans then it’s irrelevant ..she’s still being paid too much … its just Chris Evans is being paid more… that’s not a pay gap its a Reality Gap…

BBC wouldn’t be worse for either of them leaving … (or really any of the names over 250k)

What gender pay gap?

What next unfunny comedians getting paid the same as the funny one

Shitty heart surgeons getting paid less than the good ones?

The general public worker wanting to be paid the same as the guy running the business?

Somr BBC presenters are complete crap do they want paying the same as good ones who get ratings?

It’s got sod all to do with women vs men pay and more to do with modern society and it’s ability to complain about every single thing based on wether your a man or woman

If your crap at something it’s simple you won’t get paid the same as someone who is good at something.

Jeez

What gender pay gap?

the easily documented one supported by the facts.

If your crap at something it’s simple you won’t get paid the same as someone who is good at something

true but the problem here is it seems that if you are equally good you will get more if you own a penis than if you do not

the easily documented one supported by the facts.

Which facts?
I don’t see the salaries of BBC researchers or camera men-women on that list ….

If your crap at something it’s simple you won’t get paid the same as someone who is good at something
true but the problem here is it seems that if you are equally good you will get more if you own a penis than if you do not

Still have no idea where you are getting the facts from?

All I can see from the facts as released are that sports personalities and game/chat show hosts get paid more (way way more) than serious actors by the BBC…

Surely even a mediocre East Enders actor or actress is worth 10x Graham Norton or Chris Evans ???
Surely the researchers should be on close to what the political commentators (etc.) are making?

There seems to be an enourmous gap … that has nothing to do with Gender… but rather dead weight like Linnaker, Norton or Evans vs people who are actually providing value to the BBC.

It’s entirely possible that once that is removed it may transpire that owning a penis pays more than breasts but based on what they released it simply illustrates a fantasy pay-gap between people with talent and those without .. (or in the case of linneaker someone with talent in a completely different area to what he is being paid for)

Still have no idea where you are getting the facts from?

If you look at the published list, there are examples of presenters doing similar jobs, but getting a huge difference. (Claire Balding vs Gary Lineker, several Today presenters vs John Humphrys). The pay difference would appear to be gender based.
Whether CB is as good as GL is another debate, but I think most would say she is at least 1/10 as good. (CB gets 1/10 of GL’s pay).

What gender pay gap?

The one that is supported by the data that on average a women earns less than a man for doing the same role.

Your ‘analysis’ of that would suggest that on average women are not as good at the same job as the man, is that what you are trying to say?