So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.

And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You’ve now gone down to a 3 X 12, you’ve sealed it and halved the excursion your drive needs because frequencies – at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.

This is getting silly to quote Grum.

You’re sounding like Brant from On-One.

It might work for some, you’ll divide the bass thread into Chiefgrooveguru fanbois or haterz just like Brant did.

When you did your guitar cab hype you should really have compared your cab with something comparable, i.e an open back cab of comparable quality. 90% of the advantages you were claiming for your cab are inherent features of open back cabs. So sloping the baffles may help and good luck to you if people try and are convinced, but make a fair comparison. I was genuinely interested until I started walking around my own cabs and the open ones did just what yours did.

What have I done? 🤦‍♂️

I like modern stuff and I like the cut of @chiefgrooveguru’s jib, so I’m going to look at one of his cabs again.

If it’s good enough for Nathan King and Lee Voss

Still not sure about the head though 🤔

Jesus wept.

I guess Sound on Sound are just fanboys too eh.

https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/barefaced-audio-reformer-112

I can see which way this thread is going. Can we keep it fun please?

What have I done?

That’s exactly what I thought when I expressed the view that “I” (i.e. a personal view) wouldn’t buy a single 10″, because I wouldn’t and I still won’t. 😉

Incidentally in that vid it states clearly you are only hearing the DI, a mix of DI with the mics, or a mix of room and cab mics. Reviews generally flatter smaller cabs because miced up close small cabs sound great but less so in the room. Using the DI only tells you not a lot in a cab review. A fairer review would have been a room mic with one of them shouting/singing along.

Not Barefaced’s fault, Anderton’s did the vid. The cab no doubt sounds very good, that review does a bad job of convincing anyone who reads what’s on the screen and understands what it means. It’s one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it. And do they process it? Junior is a music producer, he can make raw tracks that sound really poor sound wonderful.

It’s one of the failings of Adertons reviews IMO, you have no idea how loud it is, a db meter in the frame would help a lot, maybe I should suggest it.

Peter Honore and Nathan used a db meter when they reviewed the bass amp heads

Man who hasn’t used the cab in question knows better than the designer of the cab, many happy users with a lifetime of using other cabs, and several professional reviewers of guitar equipment including esteemed magazines like SoS.

Peak STW.

I really should leave this because it has all the hallmarks of past arguments with a certain kind of opinionated older musician being annoyed that I’m telling they’re wrong but not having the humility to appreciate that despite their seniority they could actually learn something. But what the hell, I don’t have a PR department telling me to shut up so I’ll make one final response and then I’ll keep quiet about amplification (maybe).

This is what I said earlier “At a rough guess, one One10 with a single 10CR will move more air than a Marshall 212 guitar cab and possibly closer to a Marshall 412”

I then put up some sums which showed that a One10 can do more than a hypothetical Marshall 312 in the lows. To which this was said:

“So using manufacturer quoted Xmax your speaker can move 8/3 more than a typical celestion guitar speaker. But the guitar cab has 5/1 more surface area. On you own figures your 10 will be no rival for a 4 X 12.”

Anyone who knows anything about speaker design will know that the enclosure is critical when it comes to low frequency analysis. Any resonant enclosure which utilises the back wave from the speakers in the lows effectively doubles the air-moving ability because the front of the speakers moves air and the resonant system flips the phase of the output from the rear of the speakers and then adds that output. It makes a huge difference. A sealed cab does nothing with the rear output, it goes nowhere.

“And yet you try to demostrate your 10 can for a series of reasons that border on bad faith. You’ve now gone down to a 3 X 12…”

Because as I said earlier, more than a 2×12”, possibly closer to a 4×12”. In other words, about a 3×12”.

“you’ve sealed it”

I’ve sealed the Marshall cab because that’s how they’re built.

“and halved the excursion your drive needs”

Because it has a resonant system that adds the back wave output to the front wave.

“because frequencies – at least keep the freqency the same and in a typical bass range to make a fair comparison.”

I don’t even understand what this means. If we’re talking about moving air then we’re looking at the bottom two octaves of a standard bass guitar, so ~40-160Hz. Above this our limiting factor is sensitivity x thermal power handling but it’s a rare bass rig that doesn’t hit the LF limit before the broadband output limit, so that’s what I’ve addressed.

I only interjected because someone was being told that they needed a 12” speaker for proper bass sound at home, and the thing is, that remains complete and utter rubbish.

Chiefgrooveguru – did you/do you post on Basschat.co.uk?

Edit: this was typed before Cheifgroveguru’s last post and isn’t a reply to it:

Thing is I’ve used 4 x 10 + 1 x 15 Fender. The specific bass cabs in the local shop with upmarket specific bass drivers, and a variety of combos. All that tells me you need a lot of amp power and a lot of driver(s) to have a good solid low down bass sound. The Bareface is by all accounts surprisingly good for a 10″, but it’s still a 10″.

What’s wrong with expressing an opinion and encouraging someone to listen before buying?

Having “experts” on a forum can be a plus. We have good ones around, you know may who they are, check out the Covid thread for half a dozen. We’ve also had controversial ones: Brant, iDave… being dismissive of other poeple’s expereince, bragging about their credentials and trying to sell us stuff.

I guess I pissed Chiefgoveguru off, he had a sale then I suggested something a bit more expensive (a 12″ without specifying a brand but apart from barefaced there aren’t many – I most definitely wasn’t trying to influence the OP’s choice away from Bareface), then we started talking combos, then I started questioning just how loud a 10″ can be at low frequencies when the hype started to get past my tolerance level, then the numbers started flying and the hype went up another level.

There are three subjects I could do credentials bragging on (how’s your memory?) but I doubt I’ve mentionned two of them in years even on specific threads, and I’ve never promoted anything I’ve had a commercial interest in.

Now a reply:

What I actually said:

There’s no way I’d spend 1000e on an amp and cab and only have a 10″. I’d want a 12″ driver even for home use just for the feel of playing with a driver that shifts plenty of air.

Which is not the same as:

I only interjected because someone was being told that they needed a 12” speaker for proper bass sound at home, and the thing is, that remains complete and utter rubbish.

I didn’t tell anyone to do anything, that’s not my style. I wouldn’t spend 1000e on a bass amp + cab/combo with a 10″ for a home set up. I’d aim for something more balanced between amp and cab in spec. It’s like one those familiar questions about what gets the best sound, money in the guitar or money in the amp/cab. A Harley Benton Tele into a boutique amp or a Custom Shop Tele into a harley Benton amp. Somewhere between the two is the best playability/sound compromise.

I don’t worry too much about what I plug my bass into at home. If I had nothing I’d look on the local second-hand site for something like a recent Fender Rumble 500. I’m not the OP, I’m not chiefgroveguru, that’s just what I’d do. All hypothical and all.

“Chiefgrooveguru – did you/do you post on Basschat.co.uk?”

I used to but the behaviour of a select group of bitter middle-aged and older men attempting to shoot me down for having the audacity to both tell them they’re wrong and have a successful* little business in that sector got too hard for my mental health. There’s nothing like a British success story for bringing out the other Brits who need to “take him down a peg or two”. I post on talkbass now and then because that American-dominated forum doesn’t suffer from the same weird hatred of apparent success or younger people (though I’m less young now!) knowing stuff.

*If your idea of success is still being in business after 13 years and making an ok living doing something you really care about – but not if you’re expecting great riches!

The speaker size thing has annoyed me since I started learning about speaker design. The problem is that the only thing you can really see about a speaker is how big it is, so everyone focuses on that. But look at it like this:

With guitar and bass speakers in gigging gear you’ll mostly encounter 10”, 12” and 15” speakers. That’s only a 50% increase in nominal diameter and a 140% increase in actual area. But you’ll encounter Xmax going from under 2mm to over 10mm (>400% increase), power handling going from about 20W to 600W (almost 3000% increase).

And then there’s all the other parameters like Mms and BL and Le and Cms and Rms etc. They vary by massive percentages. And that’s just LF behaviour, then there’s all the complexity of cone shape and stiffness and damping and dustcap likewise, and surround and spider and voice coil former and magnetic behaviour and thermal behaviour and even the glue joints. It goes on and on and everything makes a difference. And that’s just speakers – enclosures matter tons too.

Talking about speakers by just referring to nominal diameter is barely better informed than talking about bikes or cars by just referring to their colour!

Ah – I think I remember you from around back then. Not been on the site – probably for a good decade or so. I think I know what you’re alluding to. There were a few really decent people on there from what I remember, though. Some very opinionated as well.

Anyway – just to join the thread as a bassist. Just getting back into it again after a long break. Have had a variety of basses over the years, but recently sold my Overwater 5 and picked up a 4-string jazz to get going again.

Keep it up – if it works, it works. Beauty in the ear of the beholder and all that. My favourite tone I ever has was from a highly stressed Ashdown ABM powering a Schroeder 1210 at full tilt as we’d run out of XLR cables to DI with 😂. I appreciate that it wouldn’t have been to everyone’s tonal taste…

“I guess I pissed Chiefgoveguru off, he had a sale then I suggested something a bit more expensive”

Hard though this may be to believe, the thing that annoyed me was your anecdotal evidence regarding nominal diameter being passed off as fact.

I was excited about this thread because I wanted to talk about bass playing and writing music, not because I’m desperately hunting for customers. I love it when people’s research (and budget) leads them to us because I honestly believe we’re making some of the very best bass and guitar cabs that have ever been made. I like to try to spread the knowledge and you can do with it what you will. Obviously you may think that’s an elaborate Machiavellian marketing strategy and if so then I’ll just pretend that it is indeed a very cunning plan…

Did anyone listen to that song foundation (that’s what I call the bass parts I build songs on) that I posted a while back? I’m bored of speakers, that’s my job!

“ There were a few really decent people on there from what I remember, though.”

A lot of really decent people and I miss interacting with many of them. Bass forums are lovely places much of the time – just don’t start a UK business when you’re a Brit posting on a UK forum, whatever your market sector, the trolls are like moths to a lamp!

This is the one that gets me:

“and halved the excursion your drive needs”

Because it has a resonant system that adds the back wave output to the front wave.

No amount of clever baffles and ports is going to double the sound energy going forward. I fully understand what your aiming at but you are never going to get all the sound waves going out of the back of the driver to go forward and in phase in such a way that the sound energy going forward is doubled. There will be dispersion, absorbtion and some cancellation however clever your design. Why claim an implausible doubling when you could present something more realistic perhaps obtained by measurement?

Refering to anyone who finds your claims implausible as a troll, bitter middles-aged old men really isn’t going to make friends and influence people.

There are owners of: an art stall, bike shops, outdoor center, language school, flower shop… who get on fine here – teachers come in for some abuse though.

I did listen to your soundcloud, Chiefgroveguru. I didn’t comment like most people. A Youtube on the guitar threads generally gets about 20 hits straight within a day of a link from here but there are sometimes zero comments and usually only one or two. Myself and Simon are the most prolific, neither of us does perfection, I just post what I’m doing to add interest to the thread, I think Simon does the same, we ain’t Hendrix. There are some proper guitar heroes on here who occasionally put something up but even then comments are few and restrained. I think all that shows social skills, everyone welcome to post, most people keep their thoughts to themselves, a few comments. It’s not unusual, you’ll find everything abot Telecasters on the Telecaster forum except people actually playing the things and if ever they do it’ll be “nice Tele”. I wouldn’t come here to ask for criticism either constructive or destructive – people are too nice, even the bitter middle-aged old men.

“ No amount of clever baffles and ports is going to double the sound energy going forward. I fully understand what your aiming at but you are never going to get all the sound waves going out of the back of the driver to go forward and in phase in such a way that the sound energy going forward is doubled. There will be dispersion, absorbtion and some cancellation however clever your design. Why claim an implausible doubling when you could present something more realistic perhaps obtained by measurement?”

This is how all ported speakers work, it’s nothing new. Same for passive radiators and open-ended transmission lines. When properly executed, all these designs can move twice as much air at low frequencies as sealed cabs. It’s not an implausible claim, it’s just the norm.

Open-backed aka open baffle cabs swing the other way vs sealed cabs – rather than keeping the backwave contained so it doesn’t do anything, the backwave escapes and partially cancels the front wave. Total disaster for low frequency output and efficiency (although it can sound very good for home audio with loads of amp power and speaker volume displacement).

You aren’t going to give an inch are you, Chiefgroveguru? You’re standing by doubling so far. Why? This is your cross, I’m not a speaker designer going out on a leg on rather ambitious claim.

We all know what happens when we wire stereo speakers out of phase, there is some cancelling but the sound isn’t halved, it’s louder but not twice as loud in phase. Some frequencies suffer more than others. Out of phase is louder than only one driver, somewhere between one on its own and two.

Junior has produced some techno albums and talked me through some of what he was doing. The albums get played in clubs and the bass needs to sound really good – the low bass is mono. Below a certain frequency the cancellation of some of the freqencies makes the sound patchy, they are slightly louder in some places than others due to cancellation – so they use mono to avoid the problem. He did me a demo in the studio, the adding and cancelling did indeed perceptibly change volume of some fequencies, but half or double, no.

There are bass ports on my stero speakers. They come with bungs. With or without bungs makes little difference.

Another example, car induction sytems. You can use the resonant standing waves in the inlet tract to increase the pressure of admission and improve scavenging of exhaust. This works at some rpm but not at others, you gain power at some revs but lose at others. In your speaker cab if a reflection dimension allows you to reinforce some frequencies it’ll decrease others.

Bed time.

There’s a large pile of basics you don’t understand about acoustics, which is why this is proving such a painful discussion:

“We all know what happens when we wire stereo speakers out of phase, there is some cancelling but the sound isn’t halved, it’s louder but not twice as loud in phase.”

Mistake 1: You’re talking about broadband output, I’m talking about low frequencies as they’re the limiting factor with bass.

Mistake 2: A doubling of output does not sound like a doubling of loudness because the human ear has logarithmic response to SPL. You need a tenfold increase in output to have a perceived doubling of output.

Anyway, this is why I don’t spend time discussing speakers on forums anymore. It’s a waste of my time to try to argue with one person when I don’t know their level of expertise and understanding.

Just stumbled on this thread and not sure I understand a lot of what’s been said so far!!

Anywho, my eldest started learning the guitar and having always fancied giving it a go I said I’d learn the bass at the same time.
That was Sept 19 and one of us is still playing 🙄
I’ve not much of a clue on the theories etc but I’ve got rhythm and have been using tabs to pick up songs I like – with varying degrees of success. Got Mr Brightside nailed this week.

Kit wise I’ve an Ibanez SR370E (in lovely whisky burst) and a Fender Rumble amp.

“I’ve got rhythm”

That’s the important bit!

Did anyone listen to that song foundation (that’s what I call the bass parts I build songs on) that I posted a while back? I’m bored of speakers, that’s my job!

I did! Didn’t post at the time because I was away, but it’s an interesting piece. The sense of building drama (menace even) works well as you work up through the modulations/key changes. The urgency in the repeating riff adds to that, and even the string squeak forms part of the feel to it. I like it because it works like a classical piece…..it would be great with some orchestral add-ins.

Those two open E’s are definite anomalies ……… but work in context to an extent. My mind/ear wants to hear why you play them……. in other words are they a feature you’re going to build into the whole piece (ie a developing theme) , or do they remain as they are, a bit of a puzzle?

what a shame, that a nice positive thread about basses has turned into a peak STW knobend-fest, some people (mentioning no names) really need to realize that in their desperate need to shout loudest and be the most correct, (even if their understanding of acoustics and A-weighted decibels and SPL are bit iffy) that any points have interest are just lost in haze of noise and seen by most others as just endless “blah-blah-blah-dickhead”

Got Mr Brightside nailed this week.

That song is my nemesis. It’s such an iconic sound I love and I just can’t get it sounding good (the guitar part, anyway). Kudos.

I’m debating buying a cheap bass. I’ve been messing around using a guitar to do bass parts for some loops I’ve been working on – nothing major, just for fun. How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver. I realise this sort of comparison will probably upset a lot of bass players! Or maybe I should get a Baritone 6-string. Half way house? Or worst of both worlds? I’m running it into a Helix (with bass amp sim) so it’s oney the guitar I need (not a cab 🙈). My wife would probably kill me either way.

Any Scott’s Bass Lessons students on here – I see there’s a promo with $50 a year off the sub and I’m tempted. I have a teacher that I see half an hour a week, but I’m wondering if SBL would be good for just doing a quick lesson when I have 30 mins free?

On the same theme, anyone using the Beginner to Badass course?

I’m debating buying a cheap bass. I’ve been messing around using a guitar to do bass parts for some loops I’ve been working on – nothing major, just for fun. How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver. I realise this sort of comparison will probably upset a lot of bass players! Or maybe I should get a Baritone 6-string. Half way house? Or worst of both worlds? I’m running it into a Helix (with bass amp sim) so it’s oney the guitar I need (not a cab 🙈). My wife would probably kill me either way.

I’d just keep an eye out for something on Gumtree or Facebook Marketplace. You can usually pick up a Squire Jazz or P for around £150 or Ibanez/Yamaha a bit cheaper. That’s how the ride down the slippery slope of BGAS starts 🙂

How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver.

Worlds apart…….. a bass is set up to be played essentially one string at a time, and the way you play it has a spectrum of techniques that gives a spectrum of tones and “feel”. You can replicate the notes, but not the overall effect. You’ve mentioned Squier basses, and they’re fantastic value options…. but don’t buy a P bass until you’ve tried a J Bass alongside it.

If you’re only after a bass to DI into your recording then as long as the thing holds tuning and intonation there are thousands of really cheap options out there (Harley Benton springs to mind)
Don’t forget that N+1 is even worse with guitars……

Any Scott’s Bass Lessons students on here

I did it for a year. It’s worth a look but it’s very in depth and there’s a lifetime’s worth of lessons on there. I found that the basic stuff was very basic and all the interesting stuff was way over my head as a complete beginner.

For me, I found there was no point going overboard on the theory and trying to memorize a lot of information before you can actually play. I really struggled to concentrate on both the exercises and the knowledge while struggling to physically play it.

I went away from it to just play for fun and try to get some speed and dexterity built up. I’ve mentioned Yousician earlier but you might have missed it amongst the pissing contest. That’s great for just building speed and accuracy and I can mostly do an impression now of someone who can play along with some very tricky tunes.

I’ll definitely go back to SBL when I’ve got time to concentrate on the lessons. With a young baby in the house I’ve really gone backwards in the last few months.

I’m debating buying a cheap bass.

“How different is playing, say, a Squier P-Bass compared to a Tele + Octaver.”

Loads of tonal differences but I think the dominant one is that there’s a really different shape to the note envelope, loads more punch and thump from a real bass. I suspect you’ll also find quite a different change in mindset when playing a bigger instrument with thicker strings and more string tension (and you don’t have to worry about the octaver failing to track!)

The joy of the P-bass is that it’s not expensive to build a great sounding one, just needs a stiff wood for the neck, a resonant wood for the body, and a simple passive pickup. The one we have for testing/demoing was someone’s DIY project, didn’t cost a lot, sounds great! Buy a secondhand one like that and if you find you don’t play it you’ll move it on with minimal/no loss.

I’d argue that a great Jazz bass is harder to do on the cheap – the sound has a wider bandwidth with more highs available and with both pickups on full the more subdued mids means you need more growl or texture through those harmonics to stop it getting lost in the mix, plus the slimmer neck needs better wood to have the stiffness of the Precision’s chunky neck. Also because the P-pickup is split you can adjust the string to string balance precisely whilst with the J-pickup you’re reliant on the poles and windings being correct and suiting your string choices and action.

Thanks, I have Fender Play, as well, but I think I’ll have a look at Yousician as well (sounds like a scouse word).

“The urgency in the repeating riff adds to that, and even the string squeak forms part of the feel to it. I like it because it works like a classical piece…..it would be great with some orchestral add-ins.”

Thanks for listening/commenting! It’s actually part of the massive pile of songs in various states of completion I have for a new project that was just getting going as the last lockdown hit and then more recently I’ve been doing a lot of building works on our studio at work so that’s been out of action. It’s going to be just bass, drums and vocals, with the bass an electric one (not this acoustic bass), a load of FX to add texture, and the vocals layered with plenty of harmonies to fill things out. Hopefully it’ll sound good, it’s a new direction for me to have to fill quite so much space with the bass. It’s reassuring that the strings squeaks aren’t too problematic – they’ll be much much much quieter with my StingRay but they probably won’t be totally inaudible.

“Those two open E’s are definite anomalies ……… but work in context to an extent. My mind/ear wants to hear why you play them……. in other words are they a feature you’re going to build into the whole piece (ie a developing theme) , or do they remain as they are, a bit of a puzzle?”

The bouncy chorus section that this ends with is also how the piece starts – it feels right to me but I know I’m weirdly tolerant of dissonance! Will see what my vocalist says, she’s more consonant for sure. Actually it starts with the chorus changes but basically played quietly in 8th note roots, and then a crescendo to the loud chorus riff. Then it quietens down when it changes into the first part of this recording, and then the tension (and loudness?) builds, as you’ve observed. If that makes sense?!

i use scott’s bass lessons. there is literally a lifetime’s worth of stuff on there. considering the quality of the material on there i don’t feel the price is unreasonable. however, you’ve got to put the time in to get the results, shock horror.

a key consideration with learning anything, including bass, is being focused on improving one thing at a time. don’t dip in and out of loads of different things at once, however tempting it is.

the other thing is starting at the beginning. i’ve been playing for 20 years and am currently doing the 26 week accelerator course (its a standalone thing outside the standard subscription). it starts with the proper basics (a month of right hand exercises!), so its tough going at times. however, nobody is above this stuff, and it makes you a better player. even after just a month of it i feel like i’m playing with much better consistency. sadly i think he only opens that course once a year or so but keep an eye out for the next one.

this is the way musical instruments should be taught – give people the tools to build solid technique above all else, then hang everything else off that. wish i’d done it years ago.

If you want to play along with an app I can highly recommend Yousician. It made the biggest, fastest difference to my playing that I’ve ever achieved. It’s simple, repetitive and quite addictive. If you sit down and play for 2 hours, that’s 2 hours of actual playing, not 90 minutes of surfing Youtube and 30 minutes of playing along to tabs.

Cheers, will have a look

For online lessons, take a look at Jim Stinnet’s ‘real bass lessons’

He sadly passed away earlier in the year, but has a wealth of free lessons online. He was a professor of music at Berklee and taught YouTube virtuoso Charles Bertroud.

Always smiling and a real passion for the bass. Rip Jim.

Nice on Mudmuncher, I’ve wondered about where would be a good point to get started on proper bass techniques rather than just guessing, that looks spot on

Thanks @Mudmuncher – superb stuff.

The amp issue is sorted (for now). I’m picking up a Fender Rumble 500 V3 500-Watt Bass Amp Head and a Fender Rumble 115 V3 Bass Cabinet for a price it would be rude not to.

I’m still tempted by one of @Chiefgrooveguru’s cabs though 🤔

I used to play in my teens and early twenties but was never any good. Had a Fender jazz and loved playing funk more than anything else. Hence the username! Keep thinking about picking up a cheap acoustic and just messing about.

I meant a really basic knowledge, like how to find the root of the key and where to find the roots of the other chords in the key.

That reminds me of the Mudhoney story. Someone, can’t recall who, asked to jam with them and said “what key are you playing in” the baffled response from (I think) Mark Arm was “What’s a key?”