“implicated in” is such a catch all phrase. 88% of the accounts where not worthy of scrutiny as they where totally legitimate, eg Swiss accounts for Brits living abroad/in Switzerland. then we have 1,000 accounts to investigate and so far we have £135m in tax/penalties paid and 13 cases under review by the SFO/prosecution.

The reason nothing was done in 2008/9 when the “whistleblower” first contacted HMRC was that he wanted to be paid for the list and HMRC refused to do so therefore the details where not sent to them. The guy didn’t steal evidence of tax evasion he simply stole all the account records

BTW Ed Milliband used a tax avoidance technique upon the death of his father to avoid IHT. He’s boasted he paid capital gains tax but that was a much smaller amount than the IHT would have been. This is an old story dating back 5+ years FYI

From the Guardian today. link

Spain had 600 names on the HSBC list and has collected £192m from 300 of these under an amnesty (ie pay your tax, no prosecution). The Botin family alone accounted for £150m of this.

The reason nothing was done in 2008/9 when the “whistleblower” first contacted HMRC was that he wanted to be paid for the list and HMRC refused to do so therefore the details where not sent to them. The guy didn’t steal evidence of tax evasion he simply stole all the account records

but Lin Homer of HMRC said specifically that they had no knowledge of the list

But on what basis could HMRC have given a qualified opinion?

Well how about the government asking HMRC the following question : “We’re considering giving Stephen Green a peerage, you’ve told us that as far as you are concerned his tax history is fine, but what about HSBC, he is group chairman, are you happy with HSBC?”

To which HMRC could have replied : “Well our colleagues in France have provided us with information of thousands of secret account files which implicates HSBC in major tax evasion activities and other potential criminal offences”.

David Cameron could then have concluded that it was perhaps not a good idea to give Stephen Green a peerage until all investigations had been exhausted and HSBC had been exonerated.

If he cared.

But David Cameron has a past record concerning poor judgement, has he not ?

@ernie – its not news that HSBC Switzerland (or indeed any other bank out there) will have many UK account holders. The fact they exist doesn’t implicate anyone in anything.

What the Whistleblower did was provide a list of names of account holders with their nationality.

Not sure what Lin Homer or anyone at HMRC knew of he initial contact, the Whistleblower apparently has dug out an email he sent but HMRC say they have no record of it (it may have been deleted as a matter of course after a few months for example).

What we have is £125m of tax collected, I assume a liability over many years. Its far far less than the amounts dodged by companies as a result of EU tax treaties every year. We keep hearing about these massive amounts in the billions not being paid and I imagine HMRC was focusing on chasing these eleusive amounts and not the relatively small amounts due from offshore accounts

You say “@ernie” and yet nothing that follows bears any relation to the point that I’ve just made.

And the point was, in case you missed it, that had Cameron cared then he would have known that there was widespread, international in fact, dissatisfaction, with the way HSBC has in the past supported their extremely wealthy tax-dodging clients.

You used the words “implicated in major tax …” in your hypothetical responce.

I am not sure there was international dissatisfaction with HSBC in Switzerland. I think you’ll find every bank was offering pretty much the same services.

HSBC offered Swiss banking services to UK citizens, including pointing out ways in which they might pay less tax. That’s normal business practice. If those same clients hid money in Switzerland and didn’t declare it to the UK tax man when it should have been that’s a criminal offense.

This is not a Swiss or an HSBC issue. Banking exists throughout the globe with varying different laws and levels of secrecy. HMRC and the other tax authorities need to work out how to do a better job here in the UK and they need changes in the law and tax policies to allow them to do so.

I am not sure there was international dissatisfaction with HSBC in Switzerland.

Well you wouldn’t be would you? I suppose that you think the French tax authorities got in touch with their UK counterparts because they were completely satisfied with how the HSBC had been conducting their affairs and were merely interested in knowing whether the UK tax authorities were as satisfied as they were?

And this is what the HSBC themselves said in a statement :

Although there are numerous legitimate reasons to have a Swiss bank account, in some cases individuals took advantage of bank secrecy to hold undeclared accounts. This resulted in private banks, including HSBC’s Swiss private bank, having a number of clients that may not have been fully compliant with their applicable tax obligations. We acknowledge and are accountable for past compliance and control failures.

So according to the HSBC themselves they “acknowledge and are accountable for past compliance and control failures”. This suggests a certain dissatisfaction with their own past activities, even though you apparently aren’t dissatisfied jambalaya.

Although presumably you would be ranting with indignation if they were a Greek bank.

What was going on at HSBC Switzerland was not ” normal banking practice” for the subsidiary of a UK bank, they seem to have been knowingly encouraging tax evasion, which is wrong.

Whether any UK authority had a complete picture of how complicit HSBC where when Green was appointed is another matter.

Well HMRC had the evidence of not “normal banking practice” 8 months before he was appointed Minister of State for Trade and Investment.

Still, I’m sure jambalaya will explain why that shouldn’t be seen as a problem.

Told you that Rona Fairhead was in on it:

Still, I’m sure jambalaya will explain why that shouldn’t be seen as a problem.

It seems from HMRC evidence that they knew that there were accounts where tax had been evaded, but that they were not aware of the emails that showed HSBC were complicit in that tax evasion.

You’re not paying attention mefty, apparently this is a very old story which everyone has known about since 2007

jambalaya – Member

Breaking news from 2007.

As HSBC points out the rules have been tightened since 2007 and they are compliant with todays new rules.

EDIT : They certainly knew about HSBC dodgy banking practices before Cameron made Green Minister of State for Trade and Investment.

HSBC files: HMRC had data on misconduct before bank boss made trade minister

I feel a bit sorry for HMRC in all of this. They are asked to collect taxes based on an unbelievably complicated set of rules set up by the government of the day. Or more likely just added to by the government of the day. Then when they go about their business of implementing the rules the governement has and no doubt still does interveen in specific cases. It also keeps cutting the budget they have to collect the taxes due and investigate

My Mum was a tax inspector in the 70’s and 80’s and she said it was no different then. And how can you expect mid-rank civil servants to compete with high-flying accountants/lawyers?

I have though been on the other side after a period of working abroad when I was let off a rather substantial sum (basically lost my job and had to come back mid-tax year with no money). But the Inspector said that if they held the letter of the law down then he could see that all I’d do was sign-on and they’d not get any money – far better to write it off and have me back working and paying tax. Plus he could see that it wasn’t on purpose.

You’re not paying attention mefty, apparently this is a very old story which everyone has known about since 2007

I give that poster the attention he deserves on this subject.

The Revenue had data but their evidence the other day implied this was limited to accounts details. That alone does not indicate wrongdoing by the bank. It is the emails that illustrate the wrongdoing (i.e. knowledge and encouragement of tax evasion) which it would appear from the HMRC evidence that they did not have access to.

Meanwhile in other news – Lord Green fell on his sword this morning. Scalp claimed, but will it change behaviour?

Maybe some exemplary prosecutions of the 20 most egregious offenders is the way to go. (Ignoring the advice of the CPS). The expense,time and stress suffered by the 20 should help encouragez les autres.

The impression that tax paying for the little people needs to stop. I heartily recommend watching last nights “The Last Leg” for some humorous but apposite fixes to the problem. The “Do Your Bit” catchphrase needs wider circulation.

Yet again, the plot thickens…

Peter Oborne has resigned from the Telegraph due to an apparent cover up by the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph owners) of HSBC dodgy dealings on Jersey

Yep, this Jersey

HSBC dodgy dealings on Jersey

Yep, this Jersey

Let me get this right, the HSBC bank is part of an international pedophile ring ?

A pedophile ring based in the tax haven known as Jersey ?

Well I won’t ask who Jimmy Savile had his bank account with – I think I know the answer.

If there is one thing worse than a pedophile it’s a tax-dodging pedophile.

Now then Now then, who is it that rules the Crown Dependency of Jersey?

Bonus points if you can tell us who has jurisdiction over both Jersey and the Home Office, which would be necessary to detain a journalist at Heathrow…

who is it that rules the Crown Dependency of Jersey?

A tax-dodging pedophile lizard ?

😀

So, in the real world, it seems pressure is increasing on head of the BBC trust, Rona Fairhead who receives a paltry £10K a day from HSBC

Whether these payments are anything to do with her continued loyalty after the laundering scandal involving Mexican Druglords and terrorists is debatable, but it’d certainly be nice if she took the time to allay concerns

…..allay concerns

Until I see a photo of her with either Jimmy Savile or the Yorkshire Ripper I’ll remain unconvinced that there’s anything much to worry about.

She took the time to allay concerns… it didn’t seem to go down too well

Caught some of today’s hearing on Radio4 news this afternoon/evening on the way home… made for gripping listening!

JHJ it amuses me greatly how every time there is a development on the news which undermines your claims of wide ranging systematic ‘establishment’ conspiracies you actually treat it as a personal victory 🙂

This committee is starting to resemble PMQ’s … all show boating and sound bytes for the TV news

What if there was an anti-establishment conspiracy to expose it?

😀

(Climbs on podium grasping trophy, smiles warmly at clapping crowd, sips champagne and makes eyes at lady fans)

What if there was an anti-establishment conspiracy to expose it?

You mean nobody has dared mention the Illuminati yet?!

Illuminati, pff, next you’ll be saying that Margaret Thatcher knew about Peter Morrisson, Cyril Smith and Jimmy Savile before putting them forward for knighthood… wonder if she told the Queen in their weekly meetings?

Anyhoo, back to financial matters, lifted this from the Prince Andrew thread, though I’ve edited my typo:

Well well, seems it’s not just Tony Blair who has questions to answer about his financial dealings with Epstein:

The HSBC leaks have also uncovered that Epstein sent Bill Clinton $3.5 Million after the investigation into his recruitment of underage sex slaves began

Bit more here

Wonder if Harvey Proctor and his Landlord are also financially linked to Jeffrey Epstein or Ghislaine Maxwell

This is kind of on topic, though believe it or not, it does involve Jimmy Savile…

It turns out that there Rona Fairhead of HSBC dodgyness and chair of BBC trust fame appears to have been withholding information from the BBC’s investigation of Jimmy Savile

Under-fire BBC chief Rona Fairhead personally blocked the release of redacted information about a long-delayed investigation into Jimmy Savile, prompting fresh cover-up accusations.

The controversial BBC Trust chairman approved a decision to keep secret details from a cache of potentially damaging letters between leading figures at the Corporation and the team carrying out a review of Savile’s activities.

Who appoints members of the BBC trust?

Appointments to the BBC Trust are made by Queen in Council, on the recommendation of UK government ministers.

Well I never!!