PK – sorry – the union starting offer gave the management 90% of the savings they wanted. That was the union starting offer.

There certainly has been disquiet from the board over the handling of the dispute as Walshes intransigence has cost the company millions.

you realise that what has been offered now is almost the unions starting position. The sticking point is now the victimisation of union reps.

If What has been offered now was offered at the beginning there would have been no strike.

rail_rat – Member

if i was a fireman/nurse/carer etc i would be fighting for more pay to – in my eyes they deserve alot more than they get.

My wife and I thank you.

Would these be the same people who believe that the ublic sector should be nationalised and opened up to market forces

no – stupidest thing ever that would be ….

bad as that crook Bob Crow giving himself a 10% pay rise

TJ – well it is a free market and logically if wages fall to their market level then more employment will come along to use it – more jobs become viable. Trouble with that is things are distorted by the minimum wage and the benefits system so the free market rate is never hit at the bottom end so unemployment will always exist as there's a minimum people will accept.

If it were a free market, then once wages fell beneath a minimum level, and there was no benefit system, then people would equally logically turn to theft. Of course it wouldn't be theft in a free market, because by default any law will distort a truly free market, so I guess it would just be called non consensual wealth acquisition 🙂
See somalia for a classic example of a real free market economy.

Sadly like thatcher, unions need to be sidelined as a rather sad and nasty piece of history, all down to political interferance.

You go to work and earn what the market is capable of paying, you buy a car with what you can afford, or we would all be driving round in bmw,s

timc – Member
end of the day, by striking their f**king over Joe bloggs, c+nts

Wow a picture of moderation you are I think the target may be their employers you ae collatoal damage/friendly fire. Why not be be angry at the employers in this situation they can also help avoi this?
Skiprat symapthises but as above

But striking is an extension and a flexing of muscles too far. If the unions are unable to negotiate a good enough position without striking then they are either utilising the wrong people and mechanisms to do so, or their demands aren't reasonable

Yes management never put a ridiculous offer forward and are always genreous to a fault – see posts above where profits are rising and mgmt offe rno wage rise as examples on this 🙄 – just the WORKERS [unions are the employees ] who are to blame. A ridiculous and simplistic view

Trouble with that is things are distorted by the minimum wage and the benefits system so the free market rate is never hit at the bottom end so unemployment will always exist as there's a minimum people will accept. [/Quote]
I never realised it was possible to make thatcher sound like a socialist. Your view would have a wage below which people could live off whilst empoyers made billions insteand of mereley hundreds of millions hardly fair. See the 18 th century and early industrilisation for examples of your market at work. Uneducated children working all day for tokens as there was no state benefits of minimum wage too distort this perfection. The market is many things but fair is not one of them- see middle east sweat shops for further examples of your vision at work.

I'm not saying they shouldn't have a payrise or be paid fairly for their work but right now i'm waiting to see whether or not i can go on my holiday that my wife and i have saved long and hard for. No i don't think management should get huge rises out of line with the rest of the workforce, but nor do i think that they should hold the rest of the UK to its knees. If people can't fly back to the UK, kids could miss school, teachers miss days of work and children working towards their education will miss stuff. Multiply this for weeks on end and they're just stopping the UK. Extreme examples maybe but the Uk's going downhill and things like this just increase problems.

Times are hard throughout the UK at the moment. Why not be like the rest of the work force in the UK and grit your teeth and get on with it. Why not wait til BAA is making more money (running at a profit) and strike then, stopping the fast flow of ready money comming in? Bit like the fuel protests when the prices went sky high.

You go to work and earn what the market is capableable to get away with paying

Clearly the minimum wage did not lead to the collapse of employment despote them claiming the market could not support this. A Naive view in the extreme a failed system from centuries ago that led to near serfdom of the maotrity of the population whilst making a tiny elite fantastically wealthy.

Oh, and for the record, I do think that unions can and do do some good. But striking is an extension and a flexing of muscles too far. If the unions are unable to negotiate a good enough position without striking then they are either utilising the wrong people and mechanisms to do so, or their demands aren't reasonable.

Things have moved on a long way since the 70s and 80s…

Yes they have moved on from the 70' 80's, unions don't strike for little reason nowadays because of the financial implications of doing so.(RMT being the exception of course) Blaming the unions solely is a bit silly as it takes two to tango.

Maybe he accepts market rate?

How would you define market rate? "Boss our profits are up can I have a pay rise? No. If you don't like it you can f*ck off." I remember when Human resources used to called personnel. But now you are just another "resource" to be used up and thrown away as and when required.

It seems to me that people attacks on the unions here are borne out of jealousy, that someone may be getting a better pay deal than you. You are all "individual" and vulnerable to whatever demands your employer sets for you, unreasonable or otherwise within the law…which incidentally can be changed by industry whispering in the ears of politicians.

Yet you still attack the unions, remembering the bad old days of the 70's where they were powerful…yes they were too powerful, those days are gone. But it's now swung the other way with employers having too much power…which is why unions came about in the first place.

And they could return, barring the typical UK citizen apathy for accepting that "Sh*t happens" to them.

EDIT: Boy this is a bit ranty! 😀

It seems to me that people attacks on the unions here are borne out of jealousy, that someone may be getting a better pay deal than you.

I'm not jealous of their better pay deal or want a union to fight my corner, i just want to be able to go on my holiday!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a fireman, sorry person strikes, they put cover on to make sure we're still looked after (as best as they can) but man the baggage machines and people at airports so people like me can still go away and they get their knickers in a right twist saying its not right. Its just wrong.

Sorry not read it all, but I did hear on Radio 4 last night some lefty rep saying that not only was 1% not enough as the cost of living exceeded 1%, they also beleive BAA should pay bonuses. When the presenter commented that BAA made a loss last year, he should shunned it and said 'we should still vote only accepting a bonus payment'

I would never ask for a pay rise just because my company was doing well; I would ask for it only if I could show that I was being less than I thought another company would pay me – probably based on approaches from agents. But then again I'm far more interested in job satisfaction than pay so my opinion is irrelevant.

There certainly has been disquiet from the board over the handling of the dispute as Walshes intransigence has cost the company millions.

There are plenty of suggestions the only reason Walsh got the job was to handle the unions. He is an ex-union rep himself for pilots so he knows the score. He'll get a nice payoff when he succeeds in sorting out the cabin crew.

In freemarket terms there is an oversupply of labour – supply outstrips demand so price ( wages) fall. Unfortunatly the usual freemarket mechanisms of the over supply being soaked up by increased purchasing ( jobs) due to teh price fall does not work as there is a fixed number of jobs. Thus prices (wages) are permanently forced down so long as there is an oversupply of labour.

TJ – That's my point though – The unions are a barrier to the free market not the unemployment itself. In a free market as you say the price of labour would decrease with unemployment. The unions aren't letting this happen but if they did, more jobs could be created and so the unemployment decreases.

TJ – That's my point though – The unions are a barrier to the free market not the unemployment itself. In a free market as you say the price of labour would decrease with unemployment. The unions aren't letting this happen but if they did, more jobs could be created and so the unemployment decreases.

Erm, what unions are stopping this from happening? And why are we continually accepting a downgrading in our terms and conditions?

FG – you miss the point. The supply ( of labour) is fixed therefore no freemarket as supply of labour cannot be decreased.

Fro a freemarket to work you need all the variables – supply, demand and price to be flexible.

Jeezo – i can't believe that I have to explain how a freemarket works! and how many folk who believe in the freemarket don't understand it.

If there was no pool of unemploymed and an employer wanted to take on new staff he would have to pay enough to attract them from another job. Thus the employers would be competing with each other for employees which would force wages up.

However as there is a pool of unemployed the employer is not competing with other employers so there is no pressure to make wages rise.

Employment is not a free market as there is no way of reducing the supply of labour. If we shot the unemployed then it would function as a free market.

Education sector will not be getting any pay rises for the next two years.

Erm, what unions are stopping this from happening?

A 1% pay rise is effectively a pay cut, and the unions are striking to get a better offer.

And prey tell how a union stops employers from recruiting from teh unemployed at minimum wage?

A 1% pay rise is effectively a pay cut, and the unions are striking to get a better offer.

Let me re-phrase that: A 1% pay rise is effectively a pay cut, "A" union is striking to get a better offer.

TJ – your scenario is as unstable as mine! 😉

Maybe there shouldn't be unions, maybe there should be an independent central body that agrees these things when they're disputed – kinda like ACAS but you let them decide the outcome based on suggestions from the interested parties.

And prey tell how a union stops employers from recruiting from teh unemployed at minimum wage?

Isn't part of Unite's dispute with BA about different terms for new employees?

And prey tell how a union stops employers from recruiting from teh unemployed at minimum wage?

Don't the unions influence pay bands?

Unions r saracin

Maybe there shouldn't be unions, maybe there should be an independent central body that agrees these things when they're disputed – kinda like ACAS but you let them decide the outcome based on suggestions from the interested parties.

Congratulations – you just invented Gosplan.

There are plenty of suggestions the only reason Walsh got the job was to handle the unions. He is an ex-union rep himself for pilots so he knows the score. He'll get a nice payoff when he succeeds in sorting out the cabin crew.

Blimey. If Walsh was the Unions expert, I'd hate to see who the other guy was.

Congratulations – you just invented Gosplan.

Yeah but it's not really the same thing now is it?

Yeah but it's not really the same thing now is it?

Not quite.

I am totally fed up of all these people causing grief for others, we have our honeymoon on the 30th Aug. flying from Heathrow to LA and really looks like going to be ruined. I mean what do they want from a company that is losing money, I had no pay rise this year Wife did and bonus but who cares we all have to suffer slightly in this market. To be truthful we are hardly suffering but that’s not the point.

FFS I'm sick of people who can afford to fly abroad for holidays moaning about other people trying to get as good a deal for themselves as possible.

FFS I'm sick of people who can afford to fly abroad for holidays moaning about other people trying to get as good a deal for themselves as possible

I'm sorry Mrs skip and i have worked bloody hard for our trip of a life time. Why shouldn't we spend our money on things we want when we've worked for it? Like i said before Mrs S works in the NHS so isn't on huge wages for all the hard work she and others in the service do. Bet you splash the cash on your bikes tho don't you or do you ride a Motorworld £59 special?? 😉

No? Didnt think so. I wont stop you spending your money and getting your goods so why should i pay for my holiday and then not have it because of them?

Rant over.

I've got a lot of sympathy for people who's travel plans are going to get screwed but I do have sympathy for the strikers. 1% is a paycut. I know times are tough but it's not right employers bully the employees into earning less (usually expecting them to do more) because they're an easy target. I'd like to see companies taking the same approach with ohter rising costs, e.g. no Mr electicity supplier I don't think I will pay your cost increases this year, the company can't afford it.

Any half decent management team will look for sustainable cost reductions funded through genuine efficiencies, not cost cutting or just refusing cost of living rises. Mind you they need to start doing this when things are going well, it's far to late when things turn bad, unfortunately most British managers don't seem to be able to see beyond the end of month figures and hey the good times will last forever because they, the management team have made things good and how could they possibly be wrong.

I just lost my job a few months ago after 16 years, basic story was sign a new contract or have your existing one terminated. I refused to sign. The new contract required me to do 5 hours extra work a week for significantly less money, the closure of the company pension, the company having the right to ask you to do 4 hours overtime a week, the first 4 hours overtime in any week to be paid at basic pay, no work, paid or unpaid to be done outside of work, removal of a guaranteed working week, i.e if your machine breaks down they can send you home with no pay, basically our union official said it was the most draconian contract he'd seen in 30 years. Anyway the union organised a series of one day strikes, but the MD had seen all this in advance and had been planning the contract change for a few months so stocks were built up in advance and the strike was undamaging to no one but us employees, the MD had also exploited every employment law he could to get these changes in nothing he had done was illegal. The union realised this and as a result told everyone to sign because there was nothing they could do, they also stated in no uncertain terms that anyone not signing the new contract would have no support from the union. I didn't sign cos i wasn't gonna take it up the harris anymore, luckily i found a new job in a few weeks. My point is that the unions are ultimately powerless these days and as such i wont be joining one again, i guess the BAA workers are exploiting the fact that it will all be high profile and very damaging to the companies public image to get what they see as their dues. I personally didn't see the point of us striking but did it through a sense of solidarity which was sadly misplaced in the end. We live in a democracy and striking, protesting, voicing your opinions etc is part of that. End of essay ha ha.

Don't worry The Doog, in the perfect future world of STW all business will be run this way.

I just lost my job a few months ago after 16 years, basic story was sign a new contract or have your existing one terminated.

How does that work then? You can be sacked like this?

Mrs Skiprat here….

I do feel sorry for people who have been hit by the recession and yes it is not on that people are expected to be demoted or do alot more work for less pay but….at least they have still got a job!! I think we should all remember that there are plenty of people out there who have lost their jobs and would be thankful to get a wage.. whilst other people think it is their right to be given bonuses

Yup, he did it on a 30 day notice kinda deal, all perfectly legal in todays employee friendly world. I'm not moaning though, it was the kick up the arse i needed to go do something else, i got a relatively decent payout. It was the underhanded tactics that got me and the unions lack of any kind of recourse. I summed it up to a mate the other day, i was there 16 years, in that time we had about 10 different managers, all the same person in a different body, suit and tie, that kind of goobledegook only managers talk, blue sky thinking this, lets brainstorm that kinda bullshit, and everyone of them would tell us all how mind blowingly good they were in their old jobs. Why aren't you still there then i'd frequently ask. In my new job my manager refuses to be called a manager and is on the shop floor covered in oil and muck like the rest of us and he knows the job inside out.

I do feel sorry for people who have been hit by the recession and yes it is not on that people are expected to be demoted or do alot more work for less pay but….at least they have still got a job!!

Thats a good point, its crap people are out of work and can't find work but to expect employed people to take it in the ass becuase 'hey, least you've got a job' is a bit of a poor do. If employed people dont hang on to what they've got then when the employment market picks up emloyers will just employ people for the minimum amount of everything knowing they can do this ad infinitum because no one will dare complain.

….we should all remember that there are plenty of people out there who have lost their jobs and would be thankful to get a wage.

Yup.

And the government is determined to make a whole lot more people unemployed ………..which should obviously lead to a whole lot more people being "thankful".

Like lambs to the slaughter…….meek, silent, and without any resistance.

How terribly British.