Average speed cameras work. Are they even on ?

Many many hours of riding motorbikes on racetracks mean that IMO my ‘limits’ are different to a bloke who drives to the shops on a wet Wednesday afternoon once a week.

I expect you don’t realise it, but none of it is about you. It is about other road users. Other road users don’t calculate for a biker doing a ton-up in their driving. Your actions screw with them, not with you.

The first time I met someone facing an amputation through their own actions was a lad who worked for me and raced bikes. Big track spill through overestimating his own ability and paralysed an arm. He thought he was pretty handy on his bike too.

The outcome is an increase in more serious injuries.
I don’t have any links to his data, in fact I haven’t seen the figures myself, but I have no reason to question him.
It was of interest to us both as we work (in my case worked) with explosives so have a fair amount of experience in dealing with potentially dangerous circumstances and dealing with the risks involved.

This post is going to be long enough as it is so I will however cut to the chase.
Prevention is better than cure.
By concentrating on mitigating the effects of an outcome, we fail to address and eliminate the root cause of that outcome.
An accident at 40mph is always going to be more favourable than the same accident at 60mph, I’m sure we’re all agreed, but we should be aiming for eliminating the accident entirely, not just mitigating the outcome.
My greatest fear is that we have already gone too far down the road of mitigation (pardon the pun) to be able to address elimination.
The “speed kills” mantra has been so successful in warning people of the dangers of speed that those people now equate driving within the speed limit with safe driving.
I’ve overheard conversations in the pub where someone has been involved in an accident (which was their fault) but they have justified their position by exclaiming that they weren’t speeding, and then gone on to accuse the other party of speeding (well, they must have been to “cause” the accident).
Prevention is always better than cure, and education is the key to prevention.
If someone asks what’s the best way to spend their money to improve their cycling on this forum, the answer won’t be “buy a dropper post” it will be “go and see Jedi”.
There seem to be a lot of people here who are quite vehement about their desire for others to drive more safely, but how many of those have sought additional training once they’ve swapped their pink licence for a green one?

And the floor is yours… 🙂

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn’t bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

So the roads would be safer without lessons or a test at all?

After your first advanced ride/drive, which is done without advice or input, you get a list of the things you must do better (or at all!).

If you’re inclined to delusions of driving godhood, it will be a long list.

If your delusion is very strong, you’ll walk away and say they can’t handle your talent – no harm or good is done. Otherwise, you will have just had a very humbling experience.

rebel12 – Member

Additional driver training is available to everyone.

And it’s cheap too.
Institite of Advanced Motorists

Go on, give it a click. Chances are you’ll be able to find a group close to you and more often than not you’ll be able to go out with an observer for no greater cost than your petrol for an initial assessment of your driving.

Driver training makes better drivers – simple. I can’t see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you’re not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

I completely agree. But you’re making a lot of assumptions about my driving. You see, like you, I am also a driving god (aren’t we all?). In fact I’m pretty sure I could get round a track faster than you. In fact I’m certain of it. However this willy waving is completely besides the point.

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I’m pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

The “speed kills” mantra has been so successful in warning people of the dangers of speed that those people now equate driving within the speed limit with safe driving.

Couldn’t agree more. Read a statistic somewhere that excess speed was only a factor in around 7% of all accidents. Yet there seems many on here who treat speed as the holy grail when it comes to road safety. No wonder when the media, reliance on speed cameras to police the roads and ‘Speed Kills’ campaign seems to have brainwashed those who have little interest in driving besides getting from A to B.

In reality though I’m pretty sure it’s in-attention and poor driver skill/judgement that causes the vast majority of all accidents. Of course that’s a very difficult thing to measure so it’s far easier to demonize something that can be defined and then conveniently forget about the rest.

People have a lot to learn.

I still think if you go into a garage to buy certain cars it should result in the instantaneous revocation of your license on the grounds that you must actually not like driving.

You probably think a Mondeo is boring. To me a car is mostly a method of transport (to go and do fun things) rather than something fun. Not that I don’t enjoy driving, but it’s not sufficiently important to me to have fun on the public roads to want to buy a car you’d approve of. Of course you do get a lot of poor drivers driving certain types of car (though I think you’ve missed your chance trying to ban them when they buy their car – you can’t even buy a Rover any more), however you’ll also find that they’re not the people for whom speed limits on open roads are at all relevant. What’s more, despite your perceptions, such people are not only involved in less accidents than those driving cars they’ve bought because they “like driving”, they even cause less of them.

edlong – Member

Driver training may make better drivers, but the unintended consequence also kicks in when driver training makes people think that they are driving gods and needn’t bother about speed limits since they are now so well trained.

As rebel12 is probably alluding to with his question, you’ve almost certainly got the wrong end of the stick with regards to driver training.
The vast majority of advanced driving is all about attitude and mentality, not how you can make your car go faster round a particular corner.
I seriously recommend you look into it. 🙂

So the roads would be safer without lessons or a test at all?

A better analogy might be, the roads may be safer if we replaced the driver’s airbag with a large steel spike in the middle of the wheel.

dazh – Member

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I’m pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

I’m sure the instructor would have replied that his new skills should enable him to choose an appropriate speed for the road he’s driving on.
😉

The vast majority of advanced driving is all about attitude and mentality, not how you can make your car go faster round a particular corner.

I think I tried to suggest that way back when, and yet just a few posts up some clown brought up racetracks.

That’s round in circles at least once, so FTFAGOS-ICBA.

dazh – Member

Driver training makes better drivers – simple. I can’t see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you’re not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

I completely agree. But you’re making a lot of assumptions about my driving. You see, like you, I am also a driving god (aren’t we all?). In fact I’m pretty sure I could get round a track faster than you. In fact I’m certain of it. However this willy waving is completely besides the point.

If you had asked the instructor on your advanced driving course if your new skills now allow you to drive faster than everyone else on public roads, what would have been his answer? I’m pretty sure I know what he/she would have replied.

Are you Jenson Button by any chance?

Where did I claim to be a ‘driving god’? If anything the AIM course highlighted areas where I needed to up my game – in particular observation and reading the road ahead.

AIM don’t condone or promote driving above the speed limit.

I’d argue these days that if you get caught speeding, your crime isn’t speeding, it’s speeding whilst not paying sufficient attention. The mobile units aren’t generally hard to see and, to my chagrin, I have no idea where the speed trap safety camera was that caught me that day.

On that point we disagree. I know where the safety (sic) camera was on both occasions I’ve been caught. Not only that I also know exactly where I was when they nabbed me. On the first occasion they were in a layby just over the brow of the hill and nabbed me as I came into sight (and hence as they came into sight for me) – I know this as I braked the instant the van came into view and the speed they gave was what I was doing before braking. On the second, a similar situation but they were round a bend – though in a way that was even more irritating as I got nabbed for 57 in a 50 on a DC which is perfectly safe at 70 at that location. I’d love for one of the “always obey the speed limit” advocates to explain to me why my driving there was more dangerous than doing 70 on the same road a few miles away at a point where that is perfectly legal.

I still wonder what it would have been like if I’d chosen to go on a “speed awareness” course after the latter – I suspect I’d have had to force myself to keep quiet, and might have struggled if asked to admit that my driving was dangerous.

Sorry meant IAM, not AIM. Sodding auto-correct.

I still wonder what it would have been like if I’d chosen to go on a “speed awareness” course after the latter – I suspect I’d have had to force myself to keep quiet, and might have struggled if asked to admit that my driving was dangerous.

Don’t know the location but in all likleyhood not dangerous – just not legal. Some speed limits I would argue are innapropriately low. Often they are lowered by the local Council due to a serious accident at that location, whether that accident was caused be excess speed or not.

Similarly some speed limits are too high (e.g. NSL on a narrow, twisting country lane) or 30 past a school entrance.

Similarly some speed limits are too high

It’s a limit, not a target. I’ve not yet got nabbed for driving below the speed limit where I feel it is appropriate.

It’s a limit, not a target.

This may be true, but we’ve already established that we can’t trust some people to make sensible decisions.

blimey, it’s come over all “=AWESOME!!” hasn’t it ?

aracer – Member

It’s a limit, not a target.

It is a target, to achieve if safe to do so.
You would fail your driving test if you chose to drive under the speed limit when it was safe to do the limit.

The whole point of driving is to get from A to B quickly. If it wasn’t then we would all still be walking everywhere.
Of course, the aim is to not only get there quickly, but safely.

rebel12, you’re still completely missing the point. The fact that you can drive more safely at speed than the next person is completely irrelevant. You simply can’t have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others. The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

I have an idea though. What about allowing people like yourself to opt out of speeding laws in exchange for an automatic 10 year prison sentence if you’re involved in a crash? Somehow I don’t think you’d go for that though.

The whole point of driving is to get from A to B quickly. If it wasn’t then we would all still be walking everywhere.

Another superb example of warped logic to justify driving fast. Keep ’em coming!

(…waiting for the ‘if we spend all our time looking at the speedometer it’s more dangerous’ excuse)

dazh – Member

Another superb example of warped logic to justify driving fast. Keep ’em coming!

Yet you fail to offer an alternative.
Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

dazh – Member
waiting for the ‘if we spend all our time looking at the speedometer it’s more dangerous’ excuse

It only takes a fraction of a second to glance at the speedometer, and doing so should not make driving dangerous.
Does taking your eyes off the road make driving more or less safe though?
Let’s have an actual answer.

dazh – Member
You simply can’t have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others.

It may have escaped you but we already have that situation (using your definition of completely different rules meaning different allowed speeds). 💡

dazh – Member

rebel12, you’re still completely missing the point. The fact that you can drive more safely at speed than the next person is completely irrelevant. You simply can’t have one set of drivers driving to completely different rules than others. The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

I have an idea though. What about allowing people like yourself to opt out of speeding laws in exchange for an automatic 10 year prison sentence if you’re involved in a crash? Somehow I don’t think you’d go for that though.

But people do already drive to a different set of rules. Some drive far too slow to be safe, others too fast for the conditions? Not sure what you’re trying to get at here? All I’m saying is that if you’re going to drive faster than the posted limit then extra training will make you a far safer driver. Any many limits are already artificially low – e.g. the 70mph limit of a motorway when traffic is light. That was set in the mid 60’s when cars were positively death traps compared to today’s vehicles.

They are thinking of upping the limit to 80mph on motorways soon. Will that then make it suddenly safe in your eyes just because it’s now legal?

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we’re at it. Perhaps for example if you’d completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special ‘Red Numberplate’ which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven’t passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

Driver training makes better drivers – simple. I can’t see why this would grate with you, unless you honestly believe that just because you’re not a confident driver yourself then everyone else should drive to your level too.

Yeah but usually when there’s accidents, TWO cars are involved. Not speeding is defensive driving.

The speed limits are there not just to improve safety through limiting the severity of crashes, but also to provide a standard environment where all road users know what to expect.

Absolutely bang on.

Nipping out for a bit, so take your time Daz. 😉

Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn’t save you much time anyway)?

dazh – Member

Come on then, what is your alternative? Spit it out boy.

Err, just relax and drive a bit slower? If you have to be somewhere at a certain time, leave a bit earlier (only a bit, cos we all know driving fast doesn’t save you much time anyway)?

Long distance it can save quite a bit of time and it can also be good fun and safe on the right road, helping keep concentration levels high and avoiding daydreaming.

Don’t understand some of the posts on here – if you want to dawdle please go ahead, but don’t then whinge when people who can happily go faster overtake you in a safe and considerate manor.

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we’re at it. Perhaps for example if you’d completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special ‘Red Numberplate’ which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven’t passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

Some problems I foresee with this:

1. See above, limits and other road laws enforce a standard, predictable environment which prevents accidents, as well as mitigating their severity. Take away the predictability, and you have more accidents, probably at higher speeds, which means many more deaths and ruined lives.
2. How much faster? Upping the limits to 80 or 90 make almost no discernible difference to journey times for an average journey, so why bother?
3. Giving a red number plate to ‘advanced drivers’ would be like waving a start flag to your average petrolhead and boy racer, actively encouraging them to drive faster, because they have a bit of paper to prove they’re better.

Also I haven’t even bothered mentioning a lot of the other reasons against driving faster which haven’t been mentioned such as increased carbon emissions, fuel prices, noise, particulate pollution etc

Right, off home now. On the train, which is much faster than driving. Normally I’d be on my bike, which unsurprisingly is also much faster to get to work and back.

That’s the thing, isn’t it. There’s “overtaking in a safe manner” and there’s “driving like an aggressive tool.”

Giving a red number plate to ‘advanced drivers’ would be like waving a start flag to your average petrolhead and boy racer, actively encouraging them to drive faster, because they have a bit of paper to prove they’re better.

But they’ll be better. If a boy racer is going to, uh, boy race, I’d rather they had a bit of training under their belt.

Long distance it can save quite a bit of time

Not that much time. The UK is quite small.

and it can also be good fun and safe on the right road

Ah! At last you mentioned the ‘fun’ part. So how would you separate the ‘safe’ people having fun from the idiot boy racers? And do you really think the public roads are the correct place for this type of fun?

dazh – Member
Ah! At last you mentioned the ‘fun’ part. So how would you separate the ‘safe’ people having fun from the idiot boy racers? And do you really think the public roads are the correct place for this type of fun?

God you’re a killjoy – Yes FUN, what’s wrong with that? Having fun driving means that I enjoy learning more about it, learning more about car control, general driving awareness, what’s safe and what’s not etc.

Idiots are easy to spot – but unfortunately we need more actual traffic police on the road to do that, not yellow speed camera boxes that can’t tell a good driver from a bad driver.

There’s plenty of people on the who don’t ever learn anything after passing their test. The have never explored the limits of a car etc. Unfortunately although they may never exceed the speed limit these people tend to come unstuck in a tricky situation (when driving in snow for example). They lack the skills and tend to panic when something unexpected happens.

It can save time…. as by it’s very definition, you’re travelling at a faster rate (miles PER hour).

Popping to the shops might save you 1 minute. Driving 300 miles might save you an hour or more.

Obviously depending on the road conditions, traffic, weather, roadworks, etc.

Yup, usually doing 150mph on their sport bikes, under the illusion they are Gods…. 😉

rebel12 » Idiots are easy to spot

Yup, usually doing 150mph on their sport bikes, under the illusion they are Gods….

Inclined to generally agree with that – then again on an empty motorway with good visibility, the right training and a bike/car that’s more than capable then the risk could be a lot less than you think. Illegal – certainly, Dangerous – not necessarily.

Oh and why not have different rules whilst we’re at it. Perhaps for example if you’d completed an Advanced Driving course and retests every 5 years then you might get a special ‘Red Numberplate’ which means that you can drive at a faster limit than people who haven’t passed the course. Could make sense and it might improve the uptake of further driver training making the roads safer for all.

possibly, the worst idea i’ve ever heard.

rebel12 – Member
Some drive far too slow to be safe,

Ah all those famous fatal slow speed head on collisions we’re always hearing about.

rebel12 – Member
God you’re a killjoy – Yes FUN, what’s wrong with that? Having fun driving means that I enjoy learning more about it, learning more about car control, general driving awareness, what’s safe and what’s not etc.

Keep it on the track. What’s wrong with it is other people are using the roads and no matter how great you think you are it only takes one mistake. Which if you’re having fun aka driving like a selfish dick is going to be worse than if you were driving the speed limit.

Man-child racers are just as bad as boy-racers.

The one thing that I will leave you with. Never ever panic. I always stay calm. **** courses. There are people out there with Phd’s who arent working. Relax, lose arms, smooth throttle always.