This is a forum which regularly sees huge swathes of cyclists insist that jumping a red light, when done with care, is safe. I’d like to see the venn diagram of those who defend “RLJ”-ing and those who condemn speeding.

This^^^^^^

2,000 dead people every year on the roads.
Over 5 people every single day…
Don’t see the point of joining them or contributing to it by speeding…

I’d be interested in how many of those deaths were actually caused by exceeding the speed limit, rather than an inattentive/careless driver/pedestrian/cyclist?

In the 23 years I’ve been driving, every accident that has involved someone I know or an accident I have heard of, only one has been directly caused by the spped the person was doing. He was going too fast and couldn’t stop when something pulled out infront of him. So he was going too fast for the circumstances. BUT he was under the speed limit. It was a national speed limit – it has since been lowered to a 40.

Every other one has been caused by one of the parties involved not paying full attention to the job of driving.

EGO?

EVO would do for anyone with one of those. 🙂

Advanced driving is not that heroic really, it’s not about “rarr I’m on the limit”, it’s about being in the right place, taking in all the information, and making a good plan.

Spot on.

But the consequences of getting it wrong are so vastly different, If my souffle fails to rise or my photograph is out of focus it doesnt kill or injure somebody and change other people’s lives forever because of my misplaced sell belief in my own skills.

How do you know hes not as good as he says he is?…

That was kind of my point really. He’s coming over as a know it all because someone was killed/injured etc…

Damn, i know someone who was killed by a toaster, doesn’t mean i’m never using a toaster again. People die, people get hurt, it happens.

Does that mean just because i/we ride motorbikes we should give them up ? How about bicycles, plenty of people die doing that too.

My point is… just because his perception is that ‘people were driving beyond their limits’ doesnt necessarily mean that just because someone is going quickly they’re beyond their limits. Many many hours of riding motorbikes on racetracks mean that IMO my ‘limits’ are different to a bloke who drives to the shops on a wet Wednesday afternoon once a week.

I think we are on the same page.

michaelbowden >>

Speed “limit” does not mean “drive at that speed all the time”.

So, he may have not been “speeding” per se (from a legal perspective), but he was “going too fast for that section of road in those conditions”

I like it when people set conditions on when I can criticise their selfish behaviour, really shows what a robust defence they have.

So much crappy logic on this thread!

Using a mobile is a big distraction, whereas when I’m driving fast my full attention is on the road.

Uh.. yes.. but if you drive fast habitually, then on that occasion when you do get distracted, or someone pulls out unexpectedly, or something else happens, you’re already going fast which makes things worse.

If you think speeding’s as safe as not speeding, then you are either stupid or lying to yourself.

Wilfully speeding is deliberately making the situation more dangerous (more kinetic energy, smaller margins for error) because you think you can handle it. It’s arrogance.

Imagine you’re bombing along at 80mph on a country road, it’s fine, there’s not much traffic, it’s not that windy. There’s a few cars coming the other way. Unknown to you, one of them’s a dozy pillock who’s not concentrating, then they get a phone call. They stray across the white line. Now, if you’re going 85 you’ve got far less time to react and slow down. And if you do hit, you’ve got far more energy so are much more likely to kill yourself and/or the other driver.

Very simple physics. Keep it in your **** trousers for all our sakes.

Many many hours of riding motorbikes on racetracks mean that IMO my ‘limits’ are different to a bloke who drives to the shops on a wet Wednesday afternoon once a week.

You mean your concept of speed is different. However that doesn’t change the physics. You’re just less worried about it cos you’re used to it. Familiarity does in fact breed contempt.

I’d question how useful safe track skills are on the roads however, because tracks don’t tend to have many blind corners or people coming the other way etc.

I’d be interested in how many of those deaths were actually caused by exceeding the speed limit

You’re still not getting it. WHATEVER THE ACCIDENT, be it inattentive cyclist or mobile phone or whatever, the CONSEQUENCES ARE WORSE IF YOU ARE SPEEDING. Also, it’s harder for everyone to avoid. Either you or the other party.

Rob Hilton – Member
Anyone know how 2 cameras can cover 3 lanes

Combined field of view from the two cameras covers all three lanes ? – all they need to see in one of the images is your numberplate.

molgrips – Member
Very simple physics. Keep it in your **** trousers for all our sakes.

Or pay for a track day you selfish twunts.

Speed “limit” does not mean “drive at that speed all the time”.

So, he may have not been “speeding” per se (from a legal perspective), but he was “going too fast for that section of road in those conditions”

100% correct, good driving is about assesing the road and the conditions. Which is why there are times it is not safe to drive at the speed limit and times when it is safe to drive over the speed limit.

JUST becuse you exceed the speed limit on a given stretch of road does not inherently make you dangerous. Yes if you get caught you need to accept it and take the consiquences

How do you know hes not as good as he says he is?…

Who’s as good as who says they are? No idea who you are referring to, I’m referring to the consequences of speeding and driving in a manner that causes collisions
(I don’t use the word accident as that suggests something unpreventable, you don’t accidentally lose control because the corner is tighter than you thought, you just failed to drive appropriately for the road conditions)

michaelbowden – Member
JUST becuse you exceed the speed limit on a given stretch of road does not inherently make you dangerous. Yes if you get caught you need to accept it and take the consiquences

But it is more dangerous than if you were driving slower.

100% correct, good driving is about assesing the road and the conditions

Much of it is un-assessable though. You could be a driving god, you can’t however see what’s coming around the next corner or predict what idiot drivers will do next.

I’ve got nothing against ASC at roadworks or for that matter at dangerous sections of road.

Oh and drive to the speedo not the satnav. Traffic flows better if everyone goes at the SAME speed not some people doing 10% more than others.

This one needs some explanation though. IMHO the main thing that would improve traffic flow on UK roads is a bit of lane discipline. There seems to be a dedicated section of motorist determined to reduce all the three lane motorways to tow lanes by totally ignoring the empty lane on their left.

Stopping people doing this would have a better effect on traffic flows then people travelling at 70mph on their sat nav

Once we’ve got rid of those we can go after the tailgaters too

Lifer – Member

michaelbowden – Member
JUST becuse you exceed the speed limit on a given stretch of road does not inherently make you dangerous. Yes if you get caught you need to accept it and take the consiquences

But it is more dangerous than if you were driving slower.

Absolutely. There’s very little in life that doesn’t involve you making a risk assesment! 🙂

molgrips – Member

100% correct, good driving is about assesing the road and the conditions

Much of it is un-assessable though. You could be a driving god, you can’t however see what’s coming around the next corner or predict what idiot drivers will do next.

Mol have you done a IAM course? This is exactly what it’s about, if you can’t see round the next corner, you adjust your speed.

Driving threads always end up like this.

One side saying slow down & the other side go faster.

Naturally the optimum place is somewhere in between.

Stopping people doing this would have a better effect on traffic flows then people travelling at 70mph on their sat nav
Once we’ve got rid of those we can go after the tailgaters too

But it’s been tried for years. Notices on the motorway info gantries. Public information films. Discussions on forums. It’s fairly evident that people are going to drive stupidly because nearly all of us over-estimate our skillz. Until we all drive perfectly, we just have to do stupid things more slowly.

This one needs some explanation though. IMHO the main thing that would improve traffic flow on UK roads is a bit of lane discipline.

On a typical trip down South on the M4 I might meet a middle lane hogger once or twice, so it’s hardly a big issue. And it’s not much more than an annoyance since you can only do it when the traffic’s already flowing freely anyway so your journey time is hardly affected.

However when it starts to get moderately busy, people are changing lanes all over the place to pass other cars, and it’s the lane change manoeuvre that carries most of the risk. And you have to slow down to wait for a gap, speed up again, then someone piles up behind you and has to brake, etc etc. This braking and accelerating not only uses more fuel but inhibits flow of traffic, much like turbulence in a fluid flow. It’s a very well known and researched phenomenon. That’s why you see those ‘stay in lane’ signs, and why variable speed limits work in INCREASING traffic speed.

One side saying slow down & the other side go faster.

You mean one side saying stick to the limits and one side saying there’s no need if you’re a driving god. So what’s in the middle? Break the limits a bit? How much is ok?

This is exactly what it’s about, if you can’t see round the next corner, you adjust your speed.

What about if there is a car coming the other way?

What about if you are passing a junction?

If you are on a straight road with no other traffic, and no junctions, then I guess it’s fine. However I think it’s safe to say that’s a pretty damn rare situation!

Are there really no takers for my bloke with a red flag? After all, if you have an accident surely it’s better if you’re going no faster than walking pace?

You mean one side saying stick to the limits and one side saying there’s no need if you’re a driving god. So what’s in the middle? Break the limits a bit? How much is ok?

Oh dear, someones blown a gasket..

edit: & with that Im out – enjoy your ranting & raving boys & girls.

My speedo over-reads about 10% (I’m assuming my sat nav speed is more accurate…) so I generally do 60mph on the speedo going through 50mph average speed sections (there’s certainly a buffer, I’m assuming about 10% so you’re OK doing an actual 55mph anyhow). Not saying I’m big or clever and I will do 50mph if there’s road workers about but the ones on the M5 by Bristol are just there until they put in more of the hateful ‘managed motorways’ crap. I am curious what the ‘allowance’ is though as when they first went up I misjudged the last set and had actually got up to 75mph before going through the last camera and didn’t get a ticket – I reckon it must have been at least 60mph average for that section. Disclaimer: No children’s faces were harmed during this incident

Oh dear, someones blown a gasket..

Top debating there.

deadlydarcy – Member

Top debating there.

😯

Calm down! I’m out too now, and I agreed with you. What’s your problem?

Any motorcyclist who thinks they can ride past any speed cameras with impunity should think again;

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvYxXBMqEOM[/video]

Admittedly its only in France at the moment, but it is a very mobile technology

What about if there is a car coming the other way?

What about if you are passing a junction?

Again all part of the continious assesment you should be doing whether you’re traveling above or below the speed limit!

That video 😆

There seems to be a dedicated section of motorist determined to reduce all the three lane motorways to tow lanes by totally ignoring the empty lane on their left.

Agreed. This is one of the biggest problems on the motorway network. I drive around 30K per annum and amazed at the number of drivers who get on the motorway, drift into the middle lane and stay there, regardless! In fact I am convinced that the central barrier on the M56 between the M53 and junction 12 is actually a massive magnet. The left hand lane is by far the clearest with the right hand lane being clogged by stop starters.

You mean one side saying stick to the limits and one side saying there’s no need if you’re a driving god. So what’s in the middle? Break the limits a bit? How much is ok?

Oh dear, someones blown a gasket..
edit: & with that Im out – enjoy your ranting & raving boys & girls.

Is there a special “Edinburgh Defence” type name for this type of thing ?

Where someone makes a valid point and then gets accused of “blowing a gasket” or “ranting” and patronised.

Didn’t seem to be ranting at all to me 😐

You mean your concept of speed is different. However that doesn’t change the physics. You’re just less worried about it cos you’re used to it. Familiarity does in fact breed contempt

Possibly, however it can also breed awareness, perception, skill, ability, ability to avoid things etc etc.

I’m not disagreeing that speeding isn’t ‘bad’…. more saying that speeding doesn’t instantly make me vastly more likley to be a statistic lying at the side of the road bleeding.

I’ve only had 1 road accident in the last 10 years. I was doing the ‘overtaking a lane of stationary traffic’ you lot always go on about as being dangerous….. it was that day 😉

Possibly, however it can also breed awareness, perception, skill, ability, ability to avoid things etc etc

So you’re better able to avoid things, that’s great. So why speed up then to make it more difficult again?

more saying that speeding doesn’t instantly make me vastly more likley to be a statistic lying at the side of the road bleeding

Obviously not, that’s not what we’re saying. You’re extrapolating something ridiculous to try and argue against. Reductio ad absurdum.

I’ve had 0 road accidents in 20 years of driving. However, I’ve had some near misses caused by a) being inattentive, b) messing about and c) being impatient and wanting to go fast.

The c) miss was potentially by far the worst. I’d have been killed.

This is one of the biggest problems on the motorway network.

I disagree. It’s a minor annoyance.

What about if there is a car coming the other way?
What about if you are passing a junction?
Again all part of the continious assesment you should be doing whether you’re traveling above or below the speed limit!

Yes but you are almost always passing a junction, entrance, or oncoming cars, that’s my point!

So why speed up then to make it more difficult again?

Because it’s fun doing 150mph on a motorbike mate, despite it being dangerous… it’s cracking fun.

Don’t forget, a Sports 1000cc motorbike will go from 60mph to 130mph in the time it takes you to change to Radio 2 on your buttons on the steering wheel…. won’t take that much longer to get back to 60mph too.

People seem to miss just how quick superbikes are at picking up speed… Therefore going from 60-130mph isn’t the long drawn out affair as it is in a car… you can do it if you hit the 300m marker on a junction and be over 130mph by the 100m marker LOL.

Because it’s fun doing 150mph on a motorbike mate, despite it being dangerous… it’s cracking fun.

Right – so you’re just being selfish then?

Don’t forget, a Sports 1000cc motorbike will go from 60mph to 130mph in the time it takes you to change to Radio 2 on your buttons on the steering wheel

Ah, that must be why there are so few motorbike accidents then.

Right – so you’re just being selfish then?

I guess so fella…. If that’s your perception of my speeding then yes i’m just being selfish.

Ah, that must be why there are so few motorbike accidents then.

I wasn’t aware they were all caused by blokes doing 130mph.. you’d have thought they’d write more about that…

So you’re better able to avoid things, that’s great. So why speed up then to make it more difficult again?

Mol, do you ride (a) a fully rigid bike with canti’s or (b)something newer with better brakes and some suspension that enable you to cover difficult terrain more easily and stop quicker?

If (b), do you still ride over the same terrain at the same speed as you would on (a) – or do you go slightly quicker and ride slightly more challenging terrain, to make it more difficult (enjoyable) again?

Obviously not, that’s not what we’re saying. You’re extrapolating something ridiculous to try and argue against. Reductio ad absurdum.

I’ve had 0 road accidents in 20 years of driving. However, I’ve had some near misses caused by a) being inattentive, b) messing about and c) being impatient and wanting to go fast.

The c) miss was potentially by far the worst. I’d have been killed.

So by your own admission every ‘near miss’ you’ve had has been caused by inattentiveness and not assesing the road situation correctly and adjusting your speed to suit. NOT CAUSED BY EXCEEDIING THE SPEED LIMIT! 😉

Ah, that must be why there are so few motorbike accidents then.

I wasn’t aware they were all caused by blokes doing 130mph.. you’d have thought they’d write more about that…

They are mostly caused by car/van/lorry drivers not paying attention/seeing the other (two wheeled) road users and pulling out on them

or, by people being fallible.

we can’t stop people crashing*, it’ll happen.

we can influence the damage that results. Through training, speed limits, policing, etc.)

(6 points for being a tit, and a slightly crashy history in which noone was hurt, but important lessons were (hopefully) learned)

(*not meant in a pre-determined sense, but pragmatically)

So by your own admission every ‘near miss’ you’ve had has been caused by inattentiveness and not assesing the road situation correctly and adjusting your speed to suit. NOT CAUSED BY EXCEEDIING THE SPEED LIMIT!

Had I not had a generally relaxed attitude to driving, they wouldn’t have been near misses, they’d have been serious accidents… That’s what I’m saying – get into the habit of chilling out and you’re automatically in a much more forgiving situation, if you OR THE OTHER DRIVER makes a mistake.

They are mostly caused by car/van/lorry drivers not paying attention/seeing the other (two wheeled) road users and pulling out on them

Stats?

It’s easier to see a motorbike doing 60mph than one doing 150mph isn’t it?

You may be having fun and in control zipping around, but when I look out of my junction, see a clear road (or look in my mirror and see a clear lane) then start my manoeuvre and suddenly a motorcyclist appears out of nowhere it’s bloody dangerous. I don’t want to be hit by a speeding motorcyclist, or car for that matter.

By speeding, you are making it even harder for other road users to see you and plan and react. I don’t think that’s something you want to be doing on a motorbike no?

Haven’t read through all of this but they do seem to work in that I recall reading about “questions being asked” in a local council as they were spending a fortune on instllation and maintenance but not getting enough revenue in to cover it, so a net loss.