from facebook:

this man shot a young black man as he was walking back from a shop at night. The shooter is a self confessed gun nut, neighbourhood vigilante, and his reasoning was that he was “looking suspicious” as he had a hoodie on. He is claiming self defence… For what I wonder, fear of being harmed by a milk carton..? The Police have apparently decided not to arrest him…

sky world news

A bit more information on him:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/who-is-george-zimmerman-more-information-emerges-about-the-shooter-of-trayvon-martin/2012/03/21/gIQA6muiRS_blog.html

I think the ‘The shooter is a self confessed gun nut, neighbourhood vigilante, and his reasoning was that he was “looking suspicious” as he had a hoodie on’ is a little disingenuous

Also the not arresting him bit, is as under State law he has commited no crime. As for being threatened by a milk carton if people have evidence of this, then they need to present it as at the moment the reason he hasn’t been arrested was because there isn’t any evidence.

Its a terrible thing that this kid was killed because of mindless fear, however it seems like people have decided the shooter is guilty because the victim was a black youth rather than based on any evidence.

Okay so this 28 year old guy:

Felt so threatened by the “suspicious” walking of this unarmed 17 year old:

That he felt it necessary to shoot him dead??
And the police are apparently okay with that?

WTF America?

Disgusting… Gun Laws out there are F%$£ED!

I didn’t say it wasn’t stupid but Florida made a law that if you ‘feel’ threatened by someone you can defend yourself. Personally I wasn’t there so I can’t comment on if he should or shouldn’t have felt threatened by this young adult.

The thing that I find makes this most disturbing (other than the stupid waste of life) is the whole focus on him being black and the political
groups trying to profit from this tragedy, I wonder if the same media attention would have started if he was Hispanic (like the neighbourhood watchman)

Some of the racism angle does seem to be overplayed somewhat given the assertion that Zimmerman “is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends”.

But I think it is fair to ask if the Sanford police would have been so quick to dismiss Zimmerman shooting of a young rich white 17 year old under the same circumstances.

But I think it is fair to ask if the Sanford police would have been so quick to dismiss Zimmerman shooting of a young rich white 17 year old under the same circumstances.

Thing is under Florida law, he would have had the same protection, so as long as he sticks to his self defence line/story he is protected by the law.

From what I’ve read, the republicans who implemented/wrote the law left it so open ended/ambiguous that its makes prosecuting people very difficult if they claim self defence and there aren’t reliable witnesses.

As I said this seems to be driven by the media looking for another race story to sell stories. Which is a little sick IMHO.

I sympathise with the family of the 17 yr old but why wear hoddie in an area where you can get shot?

It’s like asking women to dress up in western clothing in Afghanistan …

Nothing to do with Gun laws as “Guns do not kill people do.” (Stan Smith – American Dad)

I sympathise with the family of the 17 yr old but why wear hoddie in an area where you can get shot?

I think he has a right to wear a hoodie, to be honest. And a right not to be shot for it. Do you think scantily clad women are to blame for being raped?

Nothing to do with Gun laws

I think that the ‘self defence’ law could be considered a gun law if it extends to shooting in self defence, which it apparently does. Also, tougher gun laws would have meant that Zimmerman wouldn’t have been able to own or carry the gun legally either. In this country he could have been caught on either of those two things afaik.

So I do think gun laws are to blame.

I sympathise with the family of the 17 yr old but why wear hoddie in an area where you can get shot?

Perhaps he was unaware that sporting a popular leisurewear item was a capital offence in that neighbourhood?

Surely they should at least have a sign: “Warning: Hoodless jumpers and sweaters only. Wearers of garments with hoods will be engaged with deadly force”

Its nothing to do with gun laws (for once), its all to do with the self defence Law in that particular state.

Unless you think that only guns can be used to kill people?

The hoodie argument is shit, however it may have contributed to the killing of this kid, as if it makes someone more ‘threatening’ and it adds justification to the self defence claim, and considering hoodies can be used to hide one’s identity how would Zimmerman have known the wearer was of no threat to him, as someones face conveys a hell of a lot of information regarding their state of mind/actions.

The sad truth is (as outlined by a black civil rights activist on the news) if you are a black youth in the US you learn very quickly, at night not to run around neighbourhoods especially whilst carrying things, especially don’t hide your face by wearing a hoodie. Now this isn’t *right* however its the world people live in, in the US.

So whilst its wrong he was shot, he was walking/running around a rich gated community at night whilst hiding his face …….. and unfortunately I think it would have ended the same way if he was Hispanic.

considering hoodies can be used to hide one’s identity how would Zimmerman have known the wearer was of no threat to him

Was the hood actually up on the hoodie?
If so was it cold enough that having the hood up was a pretty reasonable thing to do?

If Zimmerman was so threatened by the hood why didn’t he just tell him to remove it (at gunpoint)?

molgrips – Member

I think he has a right to wear a hoodie, to be honest. And a right not to be shot for it. Do you think scantily clad women are to blame for being raped?

Yes, you can have all the rights you want but do that in Afghanistan to see if that make sense i.e. wear western clothing and see if you can keep your head and see if you will not be stoned alive. (as for scantily clad women in living in the west the answer is No. They can be naked porn stars I do not care But Not in other countries …)

Back to the OP … You only have rights if it makes sense to others and that you can always be a martyr to get your point across like the talib.

Or perhaps you want to dress up like a good English gentleman and walk in certain part of the country in USA after all that is your right.

molgrips – Member

I think that the ‘self defence’ law could be considered a gun law if it extends to shooting in self defence, which it apparently does. Also, tougher gun laws would have meant that Zimmerman wouldn’t have been able to own or carry the gun legally either. In this country he could have been caught on either of those two things afaik.

So I do think gun laws are to blame.

Like I said if he did not pull the trigger the gun would not shoot so his decision …

Stop blaming others …

Until you can amend or change The Second Amendment (Amendment II) then I do not see there is anything wrong with the gun law.

🙄

Was the hood actually up on the hoodie?
If so was it cold enough that having the hood up was a pretty reasonable thing to do?

Temperature looked to be around 20 Degree C

If Zimmerman was so threatened by the hood why didn’t he just tell him to remove it (at gunpoint)?

How do you know he didn’t?

from facebook:

😐

Disgusting… Gun Laws out there are F%$£ED!

Meanwhile in Toulouse and Northumbria…..

Until you can amend or change The Second Amendment (Amendment II) then I do not see there is anything wrong with the gun law.

😆

It depends which way you read the second ammendment!

I think the number of gun deaths in America prove that there is something terribly wrong with the gun laws.

Yes, you can have all the rights you want but do that in Afghanistan to see if that make sense

Yeah except he’s not in Afghanistan is he? He’s in small town America where I’m sure quite a large number of people regularly wear hoodies and other assorted leisurewear, and are not typically shot to death for doing so.

Until you can amend or change The Second Amendment…

Hmm.. I’m not convinced that a vigilante criminal carrying a concealed gun which he then uses to shoot an unarmed boy with apparently minimal provocation is quite the “well regulated militia” that the Founding Fathers had in mind.

How do you know he didn’t?

Nothing seems to have been reported on that.

Personally if someone pointed a gun at me and told me to take my hood down then I’d comply.

If the story is that Zimmerman confronted the boy at gunpoint and the boy refused to comply and became threatening then that is not what is being reported.

Lifer – Member

It depends which way you read the second ammendment!

I think the number of gun deaths in America prove that there is something terribly wrong with the gun laws.

No, there is nothing wrong as far as I know. 😆

Yes, we can say the same about plenty of things as well, tobacco, alcohol, etc … so should they all be banned?

GrahamS – Member

Yeah except he’s not in Afghanistan is he? He’s in small town America where I’m sure quite a large number of people regularly wear hoodies and other assorted leisurewear, and are not typically shot to death for doing so.

You do not have to be in Afgahistan to have Afgan mentality.

Hmm.. I’m convinced that a vigilante criminal carrying a concealed gun which he then uses to shoot an unarmed boy with apparently minimal provocation is quite the “well regulated militia” that the Founding Fathers had in mind.

That’s the reason why the decision was the shooter and not the gun laws.

If the story is that Zimmerman confronted the boy at gunpoint and the boy refused to comply and became threatening then that is not what is being reported.

The boy is dead so who is saying what nobody knows except Zimmerman.

chewkw – Member

Yes, we can say the same about plenty of things as well, tobacco, alcohol, etc … so should they all be banned?

What like the smoking ban you mean?

Hmm.. I’m not convinced that a vigilante criminal carrying a concealed gun which he then uses to shoot an unarmed boy with apparently minimal provocation is quite the “well regulated militia” that the Founding Fathers had in mind.

Jesus there are an awful lot of assumptions in that paragraph, and as everyone knows: ‘assumption is the mother of all ****’

Lifer – Member

What like the smoking ban you mean?

Yes, ban tobacco sell altogether.

You do not have to be in Afgahistan to have Afgan mentality.

?????

I’m confused by your logic.

You seem to be saying the kid should have somehow known not to wear a hoodie in that neighbourhood, even though others presumably do on a regular basis, because he should have known that on that day someone with an “Afgan mentality” would shoot him for wearing it??

What if the guy “on patrol” was the other guy with “Gap mentality” that shoots everyone not in a hoodie and loose fit jeans?

Jesus there are an awful lot of assumptions in that paragraph

Assumptions taken from what reporting I’ve read so far. If you have counter-reports then offer them.

DON’T JUST CHAT ABOUT IT, SIGN THE PETITION HERE

You seem to be saying the kid should have somehow known not to wear a hoodie in that neighbourhood, even though others presumably do on a regular basis

Sad thing is, according to black civil rights people in the States all black youths learn from an early age that wearing a hoodie in rich neighbourhoods at night == hassle. So the facts point to if he wasn’t wearing one he would still be alive today.

So definitely not a race issue then?

Zimmerman is from a minority group, with a mixed background upbringing so the race angle doesn’t seem to bear any serious scrutiny, it sounds like any youth walking around at night in a gated community wearing a hoodie would have stood out, so as the neighbourhood watch guy who had caught burglars/criminals in the past in the area it it doesn’t seem beyond belief that he would have wanted to know if the person was upto no good.

I also do wonder how much more press this would have received if Zimmerman was white middle class, or the kid was Hispanic/Asian …..

You go and arrest him.

GrahamS – Member

You seem to be saying the kid should have somehow known not to wear a hoodie in that neighbourhood, even though others presumably do on a regular basis, because he should have known that on that day someone with an “Afgan mentality” would shoot him for wearing it??

Unfortunately, that is one of the day where shite happens. Just as in Afghanistan you can wear your western clothing as much as you want but suddenly coming out from nowhere your head got separated from your body. The best thing to do is not even go there.

What if the guy “on patrol” was the other guy with “Gap mentality” that shoots everyone not in a hoodie and loose fit jeans?

That is a possibility but then it is a certainty in Afghanistan.

From my understanding Zimmerman was a self appointed watch commander.
In the past had reported quite a few suspicious activities, one of which had turned out to be correct.
Had gone out “on patrol” armed.
Had phoned in his suspicion about his victim and was told not to follow him.
Witness’s report hearing the victim weeping for mercy.

it sounds like any youth walking around at night in a gated community wearing a hoodie would have stood out.

Really? An gated conservative community where wearing a hood is punishable by death? Has someone told M. Night Shyamalan ?

To be honest it’s a diversion anyway.

In extremis, if someone chose to dress up as a klansman and walk through downtown Harlem then they might well get themselves killed.
But I wouldn’t expect the police to just shrug and ignore it, especially if the shooter openly admitted it.

Really? An gated conservative community where wearing a hood is punishable by death?

I suspect you are deliberately misinterpreting this, of course wearing a hoodie isn’t punishable by death, the law is if you are in fear of your life you can defend yourself with lethal force. Which is the situation that Zimmerman claims occurred that night.

The base facts are if the kid wasn’t wearing a hoodie the confrontation wouldn’t have happened and he would still be alive today.

You do seem to be missing the point the in Florida it is LEGAL to defend yourself if you feel threatened, so whilst any sane person thinks this kids death is nuts, Zimmerman has not committed a crime in Florida, hence he hasn’t been arrested; as according to the only living eye witness to this crime he was threatened and defended himself.

everything grahamS said but with more spelling errors

The base facts are if the kid wasn’t wearing a hoodie the confrontation wouldn’t have happened and he a self-appointed vigilante hadn’t been patrolling the streets with a gun looking for apparently life-threatening leisurewear then the kid would still be alive today.

FTFY.

Zimmerman has not committed a crime in Florida

I find it hard to believe that all he has to say is “Self defence. I’m the only witness” and he is completely in the clear. Doesn’t that make it remarkably easy to murder pretty much anyone you like in Florida?

I’d have thought at least some kind of arrest or detention pending detailed investigation might have been in order?

according to the only living eye witness to this crime he was threatened and defended himself.

Have the witnesses that reportedly heard the kid pleading for his life been interviewed and found to be liars?

Zimmerman is from a minority group, with a mixed background upbringing so the race angle doesn’t seem to bear any serious scrutiny

so minority groups can’t be racist? need to rethink that one.

and how did you get away with a sweary word?

Have the witnesses that reportedly heard the kid pleading for his life been interviewed and found to be liars?

Strange the recording I heard, the neighbour said she heard an argument not pleading.

I find it hard to believe that all he has to say is “Self defence. I’m the only witness” and he is completely in the clear. Doesn’t that make it remarkably easy to murder pretty much anyone you like in Florida?

You might find it hard to believe, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t true:
From the BBC

“It used to be that the burden was on the person who shot to prove they were in danger and needed to use deadly force. The Florida law shifts the burden: it’s the prosecutors’ burden to prove a negative.”

Under the law in Florida and other states, it appears to make little difference that someone in Trayvon’s situation was unarmed.

The laws in Florida and other states with similar laws do not require there be an actual threat, only that the shooter “reasonably believe” he or she is in mortal peril, says Mr Vilos.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17438627

I’d have thought at least some kind of arrest or detention pending detailed investigation might have been in order?

No, you would again be wrong; Florida’s law can make a person who successfully claims self-defence immune from arrest or prosecution. So according to Florida law he hasn’t committed a crime, hence he hasn’t been arrested.

and finally

so minority groups can’t be racist? need to rethink that one.

Fair point, but we talking about Zimmerman being a racist, and does this sound like the actions of someone who doesn’t like black americans

He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life.

Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide.

‘Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George.

As I said earlier from the little bit I’ve read, and listened too, it seem to be a number of politicians are trying to profit from this tragic event to boost there ratings and this has little to do with getting justice for anyone.

richc – It’s very clear that zimmerman acted within the law.. I think that what folk are trying to say is that as the law appears to be protecting him, perhaps the law should be questioned

You won’t get any argument from me over that! It sounds like a stupid law put in place by far right politicos to me, but there is very little chance of it being removed, as they can’t even get there politicians to agree its inhumane to execute children and the mentally ill.

Also, I don’t think you should be able to change the law and then retrospectively enforce it and that opens a huge can of worms.

Strange the recording I heard, the neighbour said she heard an argument not pleading.

Some details from the New York Times article

– it was raining (hence having a hood up seems fairly sensible).

– the 911 dispatcher told Zimmerman not to follow him.

– the 911 recordings have “distance crying and pleading for help. A gunshot is heard, and then silence.”

– his mother listened to the tapes and said “it just broke my heart again to hear him screaming out for help and pleading for his life…There is no question in my mind that is his voice.”

— http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/19/us/911-tapes-released-in-killing-of-florida-teenager.html

You might find it hard to believe, but it doesn’t mean it isn’t true

Well absolutely insane law IMO. Hopefully if nothing else the publicity from this case will highlight that.

To me if it did get to the point that the kid was pleading for his life and was then shot anyway then the guy should not be protected by that law because someone pleading for their life is not someone who is threatening you.