I don’t think I’d ever like to meet Armstrong, I would have loved to before I read his first book (bought the week it was published here), but not afterwards.

TJ – maybe lancewill fall off his bike without a helmet on and take some more drugs in his recuperation…

Maybe the frenchies will have him for contributory negligence!

Innocent til proven guilty.

p.s. to infer that anyone uses cancer as a way to get fitter/more competitive, really is an incredibly stupid thing to say. in addition, he was pretty handy before the cancer as I seem to remember.

Lance Armstrong knows how to handle a bike at speed and is also a very fit individual with hill climbing power and stamina. You may as well say that Sam Hill is a cheat cos he could ride on mud faster than others could in the dry. Or that cos Gazza was the most talented player of his generation he was obviously a cheat too.

However……

I was once told by someone from Trek that at one point Lance’s bike frame was filled with ice before weighing and afterwards he would pull off a puncture patch over a hole drilled in the BB shell to allow the melted ice to leak out over the course of a Tour stage, meaning after a few miles his bike was lighter than the legal limit

jimbobrighton, He was indeed a world champion at the age of 21 when he rode for an American team (Motorola) which would have been naively unaware of exactly what drugs to actually take and Armstrong too arrogant to take any.
Long before he was diagnosed with cancer.

It’s a long way home for a young cyclists from Europe to America and nowhere to go if you do return.
Armstrong stayed and began learning how to win, his way. And in this he is a strong character. He doesn’t just want to win, he wants to beat everybody.
He was lucky in the the fact that many influential people in US cycling had belief in him and he got their support because they knew he was good enough.

I guess some of you want to believe he was guilty but outside of their acerbic section of the media many French cyclists think Armstrong was a genuine brilliant cyclist.
Look at how the media here treats celebrities that are ‘out of favour’ or something and that’s how Armstrong is treated by the gutter press there. Don’t forget he’s bigger than Beckham or suchlike.
Any negative story will get a journalist money. Dirt sells.
It is possible that Armstrong was clean. Feasibly he brushed boundaries, only insiders will know but everything else was measured to the nth degree.
And I for one believe the ice story, because that is how Lance will have bent the rules. Ingeniusly.

I don’t think I’d ever like to meet Armstrong, I would have loved to before I read his first book (bought the week it was published here), but not afterwards

Got to agree with you there. I admire his sporting achievements but he’s definitely not the kind of guy I’d want to go down the pub with. Winners are often single minded driven individuals. Armstrong seems to need to carry a series of grudges around with him to give him the feeling that the world is against him which he uses as motivation so he can say “how to you like them apples?” when he’s won the TdF again.

Another example Tim Henman- appears to be OK guy but never had that edge needed to take him to the very top vs Andy Murray- total ar$e but has now won as much as Henman did in his entire career and will probably take a major soon.

Going back to the original point:-
Heard today on BBC news that the head of the UCI ( McQuaid?) has commented that the French people in charge of the doping tests were ‘overenthusiastic’ in their approach, Armstrong has done nothing wrong and he sounds like he’s a bit hacked off with them.
Sounds like another ” how dare you beat us win our bike race” type attitude still emanating from the French.
my tuppence
Q

Smee – Member

TJ – you dont half talk a right load of crap.

And which bit of what I say is crap? Put up or shut up

jimbobrighton – Member

p.s. to infer that anyone uses cancer as a way to get fitter/more competitive, really is an incredibly stupid thing to say. in addition, he was pretty handy before the cancer as I seem to remember.

I did not say that. What I said quite clearly was drugs he took legally with exemption certificates as part of his cancer cure are very unusual to be used in the cancer he had and have performance enhancing effects.

He of course can never prove he is clean – you cannot prove a negative in that way. My belief is that he has used drugs and blood doping. My belief, my opinion.

http://www.livestrong.com/lance-armstrong/video/5345-update-lances-injury-response-drug/5345/

TJ – maybe you could elaborate on what this drug use was/is?
I’m genuinely interested. What did he use?

Scardeypants – I cannot remember in detail. I’ll have a wee nosy round the net to see.

TJ –

So you accept he had cancer.
It is generally agreed he recovered unusually quickly from his cancer.
You claim that he was taking drugs not normally used for cancer treatment?
Those drugs may have a performance enhancing effect (at least in the short term)

So that says to me either:
[list]
[*]The medics need to consider putting everyone on those drugs to aid their recovery (from your non-clinical trial there appears to be evidence of efficacy).[/*] OR
[*]His recovery was not linked to the meds, and he just has some sort of unusual physiological characteristic that makes him a bit “super human”. [/*]
[/list]
If its the former then whats the complaint? He got the medical benefit and recovered quicker. He may or may not have benefited as a side effect briefly whilst cycling. Having now recovered from cancer he was presumably no longer on those meds – but was still winning. On that basis all medical exemptions would be banned.

If its the later it undermines your argument that he “must” be a cheat – he may just be that good by being “super human”.

I am pretty sure he had EPO as part of his chemo – or more properly to counter the effects of the chemo. this would be 1996.
I think but cannot be sure there were steroids and synthetic hormones as well. Not totally outrageous to have as part of cancer recovery but certainly unusual

I can’t find the data I found before

Poly – the point being that I believe – and remember its not proof merely my opinion – that he used steroids and EPO to gain an advantage and that he used the cancer treatment as a “smokescreen” to cover the use of these drugs.

Using steroids permanently changes your body – it is a long lasting effect.

You see the problem is, TJ, that you can go on repeating the same old stuff about LA being a cheat, without any evidence, continually adding the caveat that it’s only ‘my opinion’, and after a whie you start to sound like a complete t1t.

It’s a bit like one of your previous posts proclaiming your hatred of all things American. A bit shortsighted especially if, as i believe, you ride a Cannondale tandem.

A shame really, because I think a lot of your posts offer good advice.

vinnyeh – there is plenty of evidence but no proof.

well if there is no proof then that really sums it up for me..

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and Lance Armstrong certainly divides most people but the fact is he was tested continuously all through his riding career by all governing bodies, alot of people wanted to find him guilty but couldnt. So by that reasoning he is not guilty of cheating.

BUT like a lot of people i dont trust him, i have read his books and watched his press conferences and the way he handles everything. Maybe its cos he is a brash yank but he gets right up my nose.

His massive problem is the doping stigma that surrounds the whole sport of competitive road racing will always surround him. Time will tell.

TJ,

On the basis that Steroids have a long lasting effect – then nobody who has ever been given them at any point in the past should ever be allowed to participate in sport. That is clearly preposterous. Therefore you have to allow and accept the judgment of the medical practitioners, testing bodies and sports governing bodies who scrutinize claims of “medical exemption” from the rules. I doubt they are simply rubber stamped.

So let me get this clear. He gained an advantage from the meds. He used cancer treatment as a smokescreen (both of these are possible), but he recovered “unusually” quickly – that doesn’t make sense to me. If I was (knowingly) gaining an advantage from a substance I would want to keep using said substance for as long as possible so wouldn’t be planning any miraculous recovery, I would want my smoke screen to persist for a longer period. What you haven’t explained is the relevance of your comments about his “fast” recovery in your previous message.

Wikipedia highlights that he used a different chemotherapy regime from the default but has a rational explanation why. It makes no mention of EPO or Steroids as part of his cancer treatment or any controversy about it – despite covering the general “drugs claims” further on in the article. However EPO and Steroids can and are used as part of the recovery treatment in some cancer patients. I’m not an oncologist – but it just so happens that my brother is a Clinical Oncology Pharmacist so I will interrogate him tomorrow on how unusual that would be.

All these years I’ve been riding, and competion wise getting nowhere!!!
All I needed was to get cancer and have it to turn me into a world beater( or at least better than I was before) I’d love to see any proper substanciated scientific evidence that shows having, and being treated for cancer is a performance enhancing situation.
Maybe LA did take epo before tests for it became available,but if he was so was everyone of any consequence as well.LA is is probably the most tested athlete ever, untill he fails a drug test all the bul@@hit “Lance drug cheat” is just that bul@@hit.

I don’t believe that he wasn’t prescribed EPO or other similar drugs during his, to be honest, fairly unpleasant experiences recovering from his multiple cancer treatment.
Beforehand LA was a fairly good one day rider who also had occasional good days in stage races, as he had too much muscle and weight, particularly in the upper body. As I understand it he lost so much muscle during his treatment that when he decided to come back he was able to just redevelop those muscle groups that would aid him in grand tour racing.
In terms of the rest of the discussion its interesting that his attitude to riders who attempted to create dialogue about doping was so, well, unpleasant. When was the only time that a GC leader personally brought back an attack in the last few days of a stage race by someone who was not even a slight challenge to his GC position?

>As for the self catheterising to introduce clean urine – a very common way to elude urine tests. <

– if this is common practise –
Q1 where do you get the ‘clean urine from’ is there a market for it ? -eeww

Q2 Can you easily DNA test urine to prove it’s not ‘yours’ ?

(once again eeww.)

But there’s one way valves up there, and stuff, if you take a wrong turn couldn’t you end up inserting it into a bollock.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and Lance Armstrong certainly divides most people but the fact is he was tested continuously all through his riding career by all governing bodies, alot of people wanted to find him guilty but couldnt. So by that reasoning he is not guilty of cheating.

In the same way Marion Jones is not guilty of cheating.

TJ.

Its a pretty callous & cynical individual who would use cancer as a smokescreen – “that he used steroids and EPO to gain an advantage and that he used the cancer treatment as a “smokescreen” to cover the use of these drugs.” LA maybe an abrasive & obnoxious Texan but I very much doubt he is THAT soulless…..

He was prescribed EPO as part of his treatment as Chemo lowers your red-blood cell count..But to suggest that someone would take advantage of such a situation is, well, lacking in faith in Human nature to put it mildy…Just out of curiosity have you ever known someone on Chemo & seen what it does to the body? (Ill say now if you have than I mean no ill-feeling) but I have & it aint nice. I very much doubt anyone who has had their veins pumped full of something that toxic would let anything stronger than Vit C near them!

Steriod use has a damaging effect if used incorrectly. Just because you use them once doesnt make you He-Man.They do not have a lasting permanent performance enhancing benefit.. LA was prescribed them as part of controlled medical treatment & I VERY much doubt they had any benefit apart from keeping him alive. Steriods work in conjunction with exercise, lying on your back shooting ‘riods into your biceps wont turn you into Arnie.

Lastly, there is no evidence despite what folk might have you believe – it there was evidence he would have have been found guilty. Thats how the Law works. There has been plenty of hearsay but no proof – proof & evidence are the same thing..

pps If he is ever found to be a doper I will be the 1st to cut the heads off his roses 😉 😈

proof & evidence are the same thing..

Tell that to the Birmingham 6.

Proof and evidence are NOT the same…… an individual can “give evidence” verbally in a court but can be lying. Proof can be shown to all and is beyond doubt.

Guilliano – Member

Proof and evidence are NOT the same…… an individual can “give evidence” verbally in a court but can be lying. Proof can be shown to all and is beyond doubt.

Indeed. Evidence is there. From circumstantial evidence like the fact that many of his team mates were systematic dopers to sworn testimony from many people. None of this has been tested in court however so does not constitute proof.

To all those who believe the “most tested” rhetoric – remember Marion Jones – never caught by testing, proven systematic drug cheat.

Morning TJ.

Come and visit me today if you fancy it.

XC day out tomorrow maybe?

his amazingly quick recovery from the cancer and many other suspicious things.

The trouble with this is that it implies that there are drugs available that would help people recover from cancer faster, but which aren’t prescribed, just in case those people gain some future sporting advantage.

Does that sound reasonable?

Well if he is a cheat he is good at it, to be tested so many time and be clean is the only evidence one can go on.
Cheat or not watching those guys race and climb those hills is good enough in itself for me.

But i thought he had broken his colar bone? not that badly then!

it implies that there are drugs available that would help people recover from cancer faster, but which aren’t prescribed, just in case those people gain some future sporting advantage.

Or perhaps there are different severities of cancer where you will recover quicker, but you can use the “big gun” medicines to gain an advantage by claiming its for your cancer treatment.

A bit like me telling my doctor I’m asthmatic so I can get a Ventolin inhaler to get me up the hill a bit quicker… on a similar note, it’s amazing how many of the TDF riders are asthmatic. ie: they have to use bronchiodilators.

So many of them, it’s amazing that the asthma marketing board haven’t held them up as a great example of what you can do if you try.

Oh, sorry, I forgot, he just had that mild testicular cancer didn’t he? I expect all he was thinking about when it was spreading to his brain and lungs was how handy that was because it would let him get away with using some banned drugs, and that that in turn would allow him to win the Tour 7 times.

You’ve missed the point. TJ said that his quick recovery was suspicious. My point was that if there were drugs available that would make Lance recover quickly, then surely medics would use them on everyone, everyone would recover quicker and therefore, Lance’s recovery wouldn’t seem suspiciously quick anymore – geddit?

how handy that was because it would let him get away with using some banned drugs, and that that in turn would allow him to win the Tour 7 times.

don’t we all try to turn a negative into a positive?

LOL at brant.

Look at what Bristol Myers Squibb make, and then see why they sponsored him.

Having read all his books i’m completely taken in by LA and don’t think this will change.

I wonder why some people consider it unreasonable that when someone is faced with the end of their career and their life that they wouldnt want to do everything in their power to live and would consider and take advantages of the various treatments on offer. Bearing in mind that its private healthcare in the states i think people have more choice there than our NICE chosen treatment route; and no thats not a dig at NICE.

Various doctors, or physicians as they call them over there have said that there is no long term advantage of ethropoetin (or however it’s spelt).

LA claimed to be the most tested athlete on the planet, he has never tested positive although various other Dr Ferrari patients and I think Johan Bruyneel athletes have done. I don’t believe cheating is in LA’s charectar.

Lastly pro cyclists are tested far more frequently than athletes from other sports who’s to say these sports in which athletes are less fit, less disciplined of their bodies and less tested are not at least as bad as cycling.

Sorry for the rant but its an argument that I wish could go away so that people can concentrate on the cycling.

Well, if you were ‘clean’ and you heard of people cheating and doping in your sport then you’d outright condemn that behaviour as disusting wouldn’t you? That would be a natural response if you devote your life to something and find other people are trying to cheat wouldn’t it. Lance doesn’t do this though does he? Doping doesn’t disgust him does it? Lance even seems to think doping tests aren’t in favour of the cyclists, what’s all that about then? He’s not bothered about Basso for example is he? ..he talks about how he respects him so much.

Lots and lots of cyclists dope, have done for years. Just testing negative is NOT proof of a clean cyclist, look at the cyclists who have never tested positive but have since admitted to doping… even those on Lance’s previous teams.

Yes, he’s a talented cyclist BUT I wouldn’t think for one second he’s clean, if you do then I think its likely you’ll assume that cycling is pretty much a clean sport. But its not. Its still great but its been drug riddled for decades. I can’t see why people want to believe Lance is this Jesus-like figure, he’s not. It would be a lovely story yes, but its not hollywood, its a sport packed full of illegal ways which can bring massive performance gains which people have been doing for years. If you’d like to believe Lance is so much better than all these other pros who do cheat massively then I think you’d be following your heart and not your head.

Its also one of those things the layman can’t see… if people argued about whether the contender’s in Worlds Strongest Man took steroids now and looked at some of the current guys and compared them to those of the ‘Geoff Capes era’ then its easy to see by their bodies that ‘something is going on’ …BUT… with cycling, cos its not ‘visually obvious’ people don’t believe it, they just can’t see it I suppose and then some people really must assume that doping in its various forms doesn’t give massive advantages? Cmon, if your one of those that don’t then wakey-wakey.

TJ – I promised an expert opinion after I had spoken to one!

Feedback from a specialist Oncology Pharmacist was: At the time of his treatment there would have been nothing unusual about treatment with EPO and steroids. (EPO no longer commonly used due to concerns that it can increase mortality). He also didn’t believe that there could be any performance enhancing effect several months or years after use was discontinued.

I’m not saying he is clean – I’m just saying that other than the “everyone else seems to be at it – so he must be too” type argument I haven’t heard anything that make me suspicious. There is then a whole debate about is it really cheating if everyone else does it too!

Continued use of EPO in remission?

Ta Poly.

He certainly divides opinions does he not? Lots of little bits of evidence that he has used drugs but no smoking gun

Would there be any advantage in using a bronchiodilator if there wasn’t some restriction there in the first place?

Works for me.