the best cheat in the world – better than the rest, still a legend, and a bloody awesome rider regardless of what folk think, you cant just win the tour de france 7 times just on drugs alone, its pretty obvious the rest of the ‘serious’ challengers/peleton were on it bar a few, so to me he was just the best there was at the time regardless of EPO intake, he just had a better/cleverer way of not getting caught and also better doctors/more money

hes still an absolute class rider, you cannot take that away from him ever

7 tour de frances, in a field full of other dopers

haterzzz gonna hate 🙂

For all you folks that keep repeating the old mantra about all the good he did for cancer, and La was the best rider of his era because everyone doped and it was a level playing field for all; please, this is absolute utter nonsense.
Take time to read the books by Walsh, Kimmage, etc. for the truth on how he got far more of a ‘boost’ from epo because of his naturally low hematocrit (not normally good in cycling terms, so he would have been relatively ordinary without epo), and his cancer ‘awareness’ fundraising (note, not cancer research or rehab or treatment).
Everything else he did on top of the cheating and misuse of public funds really does make him beyond the pale.

I read somewhere today that if you took his victory away from one of the tdf years he won you would have to go back to 23rd to award the win to someone not linked to drugs.

I worked it out one day, I think it was 2005. Back to at least 23rd place. Anyone who had anything to do with Dr Ferrari is a good place to start. A LOT of cyclists!

He raised awareness of male cancers, especially testicular cancer that killed many men each year through ignorance, he also helped raise millions of pounds for the fight back against cancer.

He was also a talking head for cyclists to follow , watch and for some try to follow in his path.

and for those who got treatment after reading about his cancer treatments, im sure they would have a different set of names for him.

Well that is just following Lance’s Logic long after its fallen down isn’t it?

His one good deed in all of this cannot be seen as transcending all the shite IMO, he championed a cause and set up a foundation Yes, but he also used it as a big part of his defense/offense tactic when challenged.

If anyone openly cast doubt on LAs integrity, the cancer surviving, philanthropist was brought out and the questioner was (in some cases directly) accused of trying to hurt Cancer victims, the actual questions raised were seldom actually addressed… He sought to make himself a celebrity saint, bigger than the sport or the issues he supported, basically because there was $100m+ at stake…

That foundation was, and still is despite severing all links with LA, intrinsically tied up with Lance Armstrong and the Lance Armstrong Brand it helped him to cover/defame/threaten when challenged…

I’m sure there was an honourable, charitalbe element in his decision to set up Livestrong, but I don’t think he ever did anything without some self interest, it helped make him even harder to touch…
That they still operate is a good thing (somewhat reduced in funding now, but they did apparently built up a war chest during the “good times”) I think that a re-branding, maybe a re-naming is due though, just to break that link, a lot of people have crossed out the ‘V’ on their yellow silicone bracelets which tells you the association is still there in people’s minds…

I’m pretty sure we were having these sort of threads a year ago weren’t we, I do wonder if we’ll be get getting Lance Documentaries broadcast by the mainstream channels, annually, every time the TDF kicks off, I’m all for learning from the past but trotting the LA story out every season doesn’t really help improve the general public’s view of cycling… it really does take the shine off the sport IMO…

langylad – Member

his cancer ‘awareness’ fundraising (note, not cancer research or rehab or treatment).

Is cancer awareness not important then? Best thing you can do to improve survival rates is increase awareness and speed diagnosis. No amount of cancer research or treatment helps if you’re diagnosed too late.

You don’t need to go far to find cancer survivors who believe that Livestrong have done lifechanging work. Unsurprisingly, most of them are in the states. Because even now, the US has a weird attitude to illness, so it might sound silly over here to talk about cancer awareness/advocacy but it doesn’t sound so silly to them. The common quote is “survivors not victims” and that rings true- Livestrong were certainly part of that. How much? Hard to say, everything about them is dressed in myth on both sides I think.

But deriding them for being a cancer awareness/advocacy charity is absurd imo.

(can I just assume it goes without saying that yes it was a publicity machine for him, and no it doesn’t cancel out the scumbagness?)

I watched the opra interview and the lie movie in the cinema before i got into road cycling, so these programes were my introduction to it.
He came across as the best cheat, but a vile, lieing and selfish person.
But not knowing much of him or the sport before he was caught I found it hard to belive he had cancer, maybe he did, but I thought he was more than capable of making that up to use the medicans & chemo for a cover story.
Same with the charity, if it made him richer, he’d spearhead it.

the old line of everyone was doing it was one of LA’s excuses, the same as being tested 100s of times a year – both of them not true.

the point has been made already if you didnt get on a programme you were out of the team (Andreau). If you spoke out about the endemic cheating you were out ofthe industry (LeMond, Simeoni – who he chased down mid stage and threatended on camera). If you spoke out against armstrong you were destroyed (Betsy, emma riley).

The only reason he made his comeback is because a rider thought to be clean won the tour and he thought it would be an easy ride.

to date he has still not apologized to the andraus and even though he was given chance aafter chance to confess (by usada) he chose to spin it and make himself out to be the victim on Oprah. He’s still lying

And as for raising millions for cancer awareness all that money could have made a real difference in fighting against cancer instead of going into his personal jet fund to make appearance all over the world.

Northwind, not deriding the concept of awareness, but a lot of what Armstrong did was self serving as a way to make himself untouchable in the press; he charged I believe £200,000 per motivational speech, and if you read the investigative books there is pretty strong evidence that this money and other funds raised didn’t leave the LA camp. Surely he could have donated these funds to research as he could have done the awareness side of things if he so wished without raising money which would appear in a large part to have gone to himself.

the old line of everyone was doing it was one of LA’s excuses

What about the other riders who said the same thing?

Setting Lance aside for a moment.

Why are there no consequences for Trek, Oakley and Nike? They all must have known but were happy to ride the LA gravy train. According to the Beeb doc Oakley even helped to pressurise witnesses.

You don’t need to go far to find cancer survivors who believe that Livestrong have done lifechanging work

Nor do you need to go far to find folk who think the money could have been better spent on other things and that as well as doing this it was also used as a massive chariot for the ego of one LA …IMHO it did both though it was better at the later and he got rich from it….very rich.

What about the other riders who said the same thing?

What about them?

Why are there no consequences for Trek, Oakley and Nike?

Because they dropped him like a hot coal once it became clear that he was cheating?

Speculation, but common practice in all sports – sportsman does something untoward, sponsors leave in droves.

I do wonder what happened to LA’s stake in Trek tho.

According to the Beeb doc Oakley even helped to pressurise witnesses.

I wouldn’t be surprised. But can it be proven?

Because they dropped him like a hot coal once it became clear that he was cheating?

The didn’t drop him until the gravy train had stop paying (The USADA report 2012), long after the event. They should have dropped him before he got to seven.

They should have dropped him before he got to seven.

But then it’d raise questions and they’d lose a great promotional asset, especially one fighting in a Rocky-esque style for a final, record-breaking victory.

I very much doubt they were sponsoring LA for his good looks.

His shares in Trek remain his, the law cannot force him to hand them over; but if he is repeatedly sued for cheating money out of people (by cheating at races and buying expensive investment/insurance products) then the damages may force him to sell them in order to pay back.

Lance used the ‘everyone was at it’ as personal justification – a load of crap because it wasn’t everyone, just the few at the top of the GC who doped as hard as he did thanks to Ferrari and Fuentes, but by his own twisted logic the ones not as fast as him (non-dopers) didn’t matter just the other riders who were his competitors (the dopers)

Junkyard – lazarus

Nor do you need to go far to find folk who think the money could have been better spent on other things

But then you get into, would it have been raised for other causes/charities? The cult of personality gave livestrong fundraising power and visibility that most other charities lacked. So, just taking Armstrong or Livestrong out of the picture wouldn’t mean all that money and visibility just goes to another equivalent charity. And for good or for bad, Armstrong was the cancer rock star. Who is it now? Walter White…

No way to know for sure o’course but whenever you get into paid charity work etc you run into this sort of problem- net benefits, impact on other charities etc, it’s a morally messy thing at the best of times.

Aye, USADA went after him pretty strongly once evidence began to surface, the UCI burred their head in the sand and did nothing until they looked stupid by not acting due to the weight of the evidence. Prior to that the UCI actively tried to help dopers not get caught as it would damage the sports and in particular Armstrong was their golden goose – no way did they want him caught.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/19930514

In all of that mess there were people that show that there was an option and excuses from the dopers aren’t really worth much. If your morals are true then there isn’t a choice really. Lemond managed it right, even at his level?
This idea that it was acceptable because they all did it and he was just a better doper than the rest .. rubbish imo. It just means the whole sport was rotten. The real legends of the road are the guys scraping into the top 10-20 or so of the classics and grand tours clean and staying clean. And tbh there are guys doing equally impressive things on a bike, clean, that aren’t on pro wages or on TV.

Armstrong is no doubt a filty hateful scumbag of a man… but also a convenient distraction from the problems cycling has always (and probably will always) face in cheating.

Riis (still referred to as “TDF winner*” despite admitting doping) is DS for Contador (largely celebrated as one of the greatest of all time despite serving his doping ban and somewhat dropping off the radar since then) who in turn enjoyed great battles with Schleck (a guy who bro and dad got popped for doping offenses and has never raced anywhere near the same level since). No-one even mentions their indiscretions. Add to that that the guy sweeping up all the sprint stages (Kittel) openly admits to blood manipulation using new techniques that have only recently been banned and the 2014 Giro route was in honour of a guy dogged by doping and drug abuse.

Lance is a despicable human being but also a convenient distraction from the hoards of others in pro cycling who perhaps lack the same power but lack none of Lance’s absolute desire to win at all costs. If the guys swept under the rug knew Clinton etc, who knows how many Lances there truely are out there.

Calm down Hora you drama queen – you were his biggest defender until even you finally had to concede…

As DanW says, it does seem odd that prolific dopers such as Pantani et al are still held in high regard, yet Armstrong is almost universally hated.

Hamilton is almost painting himself out to be some sort of reformed hero – he’s made a load of money off the back of a book released at just the right time yet he was just as guilty as Lance in taking the substances. Landis will be next, as will Big George and the rest.

No, Armstrong did go after families of those that spoke out against him and thats inexcusable. But to me, the biggest crook of them all is Mcquaid. Total utter scumbag, if anyone should be banned for life its him.

Mcquaid
Vinokourov
Riis
Bruyneel

All of these have got off pretty much scott free, yet continue to be involved in the sport. And little noise is made about them…

Personally before watching the film the other night I never really thought Armstrong was cheating as everyone else was doing it. So were they all just on the same level playing field, just an illegal one and was he not just the best rider. What I hadn’t realised is how much of a bastard he was at going out to destroy anyone else’s life who questioned him and what was going on. Also how he blatantly lied time and time again and actually proactively pushed the agenda that he was not cheating.

The one thing that they kind of touched on in the film but didn’t go into much detail was all the other people in the sport and industry who wanted to keep the lie going as they were all making money. How many other people both cyclist and sponsors knew what he was doing and covered it up.

The biggest problem with cycling is the same as FIFA and the IOC, there are too many officials who are lining their own pockets and will turn a blind eye to anything. There is a whole establishment of them so to make any changes is almost impossible.

As DanW says, it does seem odd that prolific dopers such as Pantani et al are still held in high regard, yet Armstrong is almost universally hated.

I think that’s it though. The difference in my mind is that LA embraced the media, openly lied, was a pack leader and an intimidating bully. He made a lot of money through it, and raised a lot of awareness for Livestrong.

However, he was still in the spotlight during his fall from grace and had made plenty of enemies along the way eager to take a piece out of him.

Pantani et al may have also been doping, but it’s arguable they were doing it to be genuinely competitive in a time when it was rife.

Sweeping I know, but that’s my take of it on the surface.

Edit: just seen Woody74’s post. 🙂

Mcquaid
Vinokourov
Riis
Bruyneel

All of these have got off pretty much scott free, yet continue to be involved in the sport. And little noise is made about them…

Add pretty much every DS and star rider of a Pro-Tour team. Vaughters, Yates, Rogers, Riis, Horner, would be some that really get overlooked. SKY and Saxo-Tinkoff both conduct their training camps deep in the Spanish hills away from civilization (read: difficult to have surprise out of competition testing), Horner and lots of the USA guys that got popped/ current prominent Columbians also train deep in the middle of nowhere and have almost zero out of competition tests. The Secret Pro believed to be Aussie said that there was something like just one out of competition test amongst all Aussie riders last year.

I think that’s it though. The difference in my mind is that LA embraced the media, openly lied, was a pack leader and an intimidating bully. He made a lot of money through it, and raised a lot of awareness for Livestrong.

But all of that just makes him an even more convenient distraction. Lance was able to make the planets align with his cheating but plenty of others were trying to do exactly the same thing with the same lying, same denial, same bullying of team mates and of others but were less successful. Doesn’t make them any better people because they were worse at the cheating and intimidation and it happens on several levels.

Sure the testing will always be behind the cheats but Armstrong is a convenient distraction to think that this horrible person is out so everything is rosy again. Where on earth is JTL? Seems SKY have disowned him and swept everything under the rug there too (even if it was all pre-SKY)….

Nothing like an ex-smoker LA supporter for being virulently anti!

Yet strangely we’ve never heard any more about most of those belonging to people in other sports.

Yet strangely we’ve never heard any more about most of those belonging to people in other sports.

#bloodycyclists

I hope this bloke was clean. I have trawled the interweb and all I ever found was something to do with a asthma drug.

a proper cycling hero, in my eyes.

Just another cheat in a field of cheats, I’ve no reason to hate him as he’s never took a dump on my lawn!

Do those of you who follow road cycling think the sport is still riddled with doping?

You’re talking about failed tests? Just like LA (and Marion Jones et al, as I was fond of pointing out back in the days when hora was still a LA supporter). I’m not sure what the latest thinking is, but understood the perceived wisdom was that he wasn’t clean.

Actually what I find slightly surprising out of all of this is the assumption that LeMond was clean – not that I’m disputing that at all if it is the case as it’s nice to know there was a clean interlude at the top of the sport.

Wasn’t baseball supposedly the most drug ridden sport? Could never figure out how they’d help. Other than possibly with the boredom.

Usually it was for strength. Hitters can knock the ball further and pitchers can throw harder. It was why in the mid to late 90s there was an explosion in home runs.

SKY and Saxo-Tinkoff both conduct their training camps deep in the Spanish hills away from civilization (

Pretty sure Froome highlighted not a single test had been done in their hotel and asked the UCI why, given there were 3 teams and some of the GC candidates training there. The problem with most mountain locations without a lot of road traffic is that they’re remote. Finding one with a hotel is pretty hard so teams tend to flock to them. The UCI know they’re there though so it’s not like they’re hiding.

Yet strangely we’ve never heard any more about most of those belonging to people in other sports.

The Spanish courts ordered the bags destroyed rather than allow further investigation over who they belonged to.involved.

Various bodies have appealed the decision, the Spaniards are dragging their feet on it.

If they do ever appear, we may get to find out who else is

Not in the same way it was – I think fundamentally it is actually largely clean now – but then it also depends exactly what you mean by “doping”. I’ve no doubt that significant numbers are taking stuff which will be banned when the gamekeepers catch up.

Yet strangely we’ve never heard any more about most of those belonging to people in other sports.

And you never will. The judge ordered evidence destroyed as it wasn’t in the public interest. I guess he assumes that tennis players and footballers from Spain might have been a bit embarrassed.

Sastre is the only Grand Tour winner that springs to mind as even vaguely clean. He did ride on some shady teams but the stories of people not wanting to work/ ride with him due to absolutely refusing to agree to various “training methods” much to the frustration of teams at least restores some faith

Sneaky Edit: Wiggins too. The feeling seems to be that Evans most likely won clean but has too many question marks earlier in his career to say he rode entirely clean

Do those of you who follow road cycling think the sport is still riddled with doping?

Not in the same way it was – I think fundamentally it is actually largely clean now – but then it also depends exactly what you mean by “doping”. I’ve no doubt that significant numbers are taking stuff which will be banned when the gamekeepers catch up.

Totally agree. I don’t think it is as blatant now but they are definitely still making the most of the areas of “grey”. As I wrote above, Kittel has been very open as recently as last year about taking part in trials experimenting with blood manipulation that wasn’t banned at the time. Didn’t even cause a stir in the media or cycling community as no rules were broken. Morals don’t seem to come in to it which is the real issue you can’t fix easily

Not Evans or Wiggo then?

So how many people have taken creatine? Surely there must be some on here…

I think most would think like you and me that what Kittel is doing is dubious, but what about creatine, what about using recovery drinks, where exactly is that line?

The line is surely where various substances or methods introduce risk to the athlete. It isn’t about making you better at something but being dangerous for you. Add to that substances which are used to mask the other damaging substances and you have a banned list- which seems to be how the prohibited list comes about. Creatine or recovery drinks have absolutely minimal health risks. Blood doping carries significant risks as does Tramadol etc.

Actually what I find slightly surprising out of all of this is the assumption that LeMond was clean – not that I’m disputing that at all if it is the case as it’s nice to know there was a clean interlude at the top of the sport.

I’ve wondered that too, especially as Fignon admitted to it.