… and absolutely no-one went to such vitriolic lengths to try and silence those who might otherwise tell the truth.

My take on that is that no else had the connections and position to think they could get away with it other than Armstrong. Had any of the other cheats elevated themselves to the same stature as Armstrong then I don’t doubt that they would have done similar to protect their position.

My take on that is that no else had the connections and position to think they could get away with it other than Armstrong. Had any of the other cheats elevated themselves to the same stature as Armstrong then I don’t doubt that they would have done similar to protect their position.

That’s where the crux is, for me – who else maligned former friends, colleagues and TdF winners under the oath? Only Armstrong, as far as I know – he just took it to a level that no-one else would consider. He hadn’t done anything that hadn’t been done before, in doping terms, but he pursued his accusers with a vindictive ferocity that no-one else has come close to matching.

muppetWrangler – Member
to vilify Armstrong is to misunderstand the culture at the time and the very basics of human nature.

The very basics of human nature tell me that this:

All cheats, from hopefully the last generation that thought that cheating was part and parcel of the game.

Is sadly optimistic.
You’ll always have cheating.

The more you learn about him, the less relevance the doping has. All manner of reasons to pity him, rather than despise him, present themselves. A genuine sociopath. Completely devoid of empathy. Nasty. Vindictive to the point of mental illness. Utterly egotistic and self-absorbed. A truly vile and obnoxious human being with no redeeming features whatsoever. Even his charity work was just a smokescreen to deflect criticism. Cynical and manipulative Opportunism taken to the nth degree

You’ll always have cheating.

i agree wholeheartedly. But what I meant was that cheating in cycling up to and including the Armstrong era was accepted practise. I don’t think that is the case any more. You’ll always get cheats but I don’t think we’ll see the widespread systematic doping of teams and the turning a blind eye towards individuals that happened previously.

That is until genetic doping becomes widespread and then all bets for a fair and level playing field are well and truly off. We may even look back on this little window in time as the golden age of fair competition.

I looked at his twitter feed the other night. He’s still all over that cancer thing. Maybe if he says enough nice things about people with cancer we’ll forgive him.

Which reminds me I saw an email to a cancer survivor recently, suggesting Lance might come along on a ride next year and what did the recipient think.

I watched the Cycle Show tonight I can guess where Lance will be riding next year.

The very basics of human nature tell me that this:

All cheats, from hopefully the last generation that thought that cheating was part and parcel of the game.
Is sadly optimistic.
You’ll always have cheating.[/quote]
Yeah but that don’t mean it shouldn’t be challenged.

I can deal with the doping.
Its the rest of the shit he did that annoys me. All those life’s he ruined.
That and he’s still not being really honest

Maybe slightly off-topic, but I’d love to ask him what it felt like, as a top-level, world-class elite athlete, on a scientific and sophisticated drugs and doping programme, what it felt like to burn up the steepest slopes faster than anyone ever did before. It’s off-message – but I bet it felt beyond fantastic…

Amazing documentary, we’ll never know the full truth sadly and will be probably one of the most debated topics in cycling/TDF for a very long time.

A man who has no limits and will no doubt keeping fighting to the grave.

He did not strike me as a remorseful man, the eyes said it all.

I’m not sure Hamilton is as much of a sociopath as Armstrong, and fairly sure that the majority aren’t. Fundamentally that summarises what distinguishes him from the rest and why he was such a worthy target to bring down.

what I found quite sad was that after he overcame cancer no team would take him on.

Just remember those who chose not to cheat.
No podiums
Lower wages
Left the sport prematurely due to the cheaters.

For these reasons all the cheaters should be banned for life and jail time. NOT 6month bans or presscoverage for LA. I’d love to ask him why and for him to try his reply. Walsh and Kimmage. Kimmage taking the lies in that press conference. Man.

People who are willing to cheat will always be open to new ways, always looking for an advantage. The next thing. Contador is one I’d never trust.

To say back thrn everyone cheated as justification is crap. Not everyone tested dirty. Only the top finishers.

Boardman was one who tested clean in the retrospective 99 tests where lots were suspect.

Cannot believe people are still defending him. This is a man who lied to millions of cancer victims.

He looked good in Lycra though yeah?

Cannot believe people are still defending him. This is a man who lied to millions of cancer victims.

I simply can’t believe that there’s anyone left prepared to give him the benefit of doubt on any doubt whatsoever.
Every single word he utters and everything he does should be treated as a lie or a ploy until proved otherwise.

He looked good in Lycra though yeah?

My sis in law bought me his comeback pictorial book with pics before etc too.

I remember seeing one pic and thinking how can someone how legs like that?

If we all took Growth hormones, Testosterone, steroids etc and we trained/cycled we too would look similar.

Makes you wonder- the 90’s/00’s dopers- wonder how many will have heart/health issues in their 50’s?

interesting program all the same. Not defending him at all and yes the programme was shocking. But surely he did do an awful lot of good for cancer victims. How many others have done that? He didn’t have to do that did he? He could have just carried on lying and cheating and being nasty alone.

As has been stated before, it wa sthe way that Armstrong went after the people who were his support next work, when things began to crumble. He is a vile, nasty piece of work …
However, It is the sport that is rotten to the core. It accepts and condones the drug taking at a very high level, does little to try and stop it. The gvening bodies have been “in on it” for many years and will be for many years to come …

So much cheating you had to be a chemist AND a lawyer to follow that sport.

My younger brother died from Bowel Cancer last year.
He always saw Lance as an inspiration, had his book, wore a yellow wristband everywhere, etc.
Although he kind of knew it was coming, he was gutted when Lance confessed all on TV.

I’m sure he wasn’t the only one who felt betrayed by the whole Armstrong lie.

For so many reasons I hope Lance just fades into insignificance and dies a regretful, lonely and sad man.

But surely he did do an awful lot of good for cancer victims.

So do a lot of volunteers, the collective of charity riders and other fundraisers and charity organisations. He lied and gave false hope to many more.
Having said that, he did come across well when with patients and the children on the wards. A professional scumbag yes, but there’s human empathy in there somewhere. Very mixed up rationales for what he did though and an ego way out of control.

I always wanted to see Jan Ulrich give him a proper pasting but sadly it never happened : (

hora – Member

To say back thrn everyone cheated as justification is crap. Not everyone tested dirty. Only the top finishers.

That’s kind of the entire point, isn’t it? Want to be a top finisher? Cheat. That’s the decision every rider, clean or doper, faced. Some would be keener than others but the question you have to ask is, how many dopers would have chosen to, in a different climate. You dedicate your life to climbing to the highest levels and when you get there it’s either cheat or throw it away. It’s a no-win situation.

I’ve got huge respect for those who stayed clean but if you try and put yourselves in the shoes of those who didn’t, it’s not so simple. Some will cheat purely for an advantage even in a clean game, some will stay clean in a dirty game, everyone else ends up somewhere inbetween. And once you’re a cheat, no matter how reluctantly you got into it, you might as well be the best cheat you can be.

Except for Armstrong obviously as all doping is his fault 😉

I’m sorry about your brother freeagent 🙁

The thing about the whole Armstrong affair is, for me anyway, how people’s expectations shift.

1. Doping was the norm in his era, not the exception.
2. The cycling authorities knew it was happening and selectively pursued individuals and teams only when they had to.
3. Armstrong organised himself and the people around him more successfully than others

It’s not right and it’s not fair and people got smeared and careers got ended. And the cycling authorities watched on and did nothing.

It’s not black and white. Yes he cheated. So were almost all of his rivals. Yes he involved his whole team. I’d put my mortgage on other teams doing exactly the same. Yes he smeared people and ended careers. You think he was the only one? FFS.

Like I said, he cheated and lied and did whatever it took to win. In a sport where that behaviour was accepted and in some ways promoted. He’s a more complex character I think than he’s been painted. I reckon all elite sportsmen are obsessive people, you probably need to be. His particular characteristics found an ideal home in road cycling of the era.

If you hate Armstrong, and there’s plenty of reasons to, then you need to look at conditions in which he thrived. Is he a bigger liar than George Bush, Tony Blair etc? Personally I think the battle with cancer and the actions of his team when he was diagnosed had a profound effect on an already cutthroat and obsessive individual. Add to that the culture of doping and the implicit acceptance to it by the authorities and you have the perfect conditions for an egotistical, autocratic, sociopath to succeed. He was just the one with the most interesting story, the American and the most desperate to win. A sad and twisted man. Not a monster.

I was wondering the other day, what must it have felt like to be doping at the same time LA was riding? They are already mega fit pro cyclists, who are then doping on top of that, but still not winning, and having thier arses handed to them at that! Must have been pretty tough

one thing more than anything bothers me,
how can a bloke enjoy a victory, knowing that he cheated to get it?

weak, slimy, scumbag of a person…..everything a bloke don’t want to be.

one thing more than anything bothers me, how can a bloke enjoy a victory, knowing that he cheated to get it?

he lied so much he started to believe the lies!

#deluded

In Hamiltons book he paints Lance as evil/manipulative etc etc.

What he seems to forget is no one forced him to pay circa 100k+ annually out of his pocket to pay for his visits to the drug doctor and the drug program.

His whole book focuses on Lance being a bully and Lances drug taking but very little on himself. He was just as bad. He cheated exactly the same to gain alot of money.

How can an athlete put their body through such chemical crap?

one thing more than anything bothers me,
how can a bloke enjoy a victory, knowing that he cheated to get it?

Because he knew everyone else was cheating too. Having a good doctor was/is like having a good mechanic. All part of a bigger picture.

If a man actively uses his considerable power to suppress the truth and make those who are telling the truth suffer, then HE IS A CANCER on society, and he needs to be consigned to the trash can where he belongs.

What he seems to forget is no one forced him to pay circa 100k+ annually out of his pocket to pay for his visits to the drug doctor and the drug program.

If you didn’t you were off the team – look at Frankie Andrieu.

Because he knew everyone else was cheating too

No he said himself if they aren’t cheating then they are chumps.

He KNEW not everyone was cheating. He KNEW from the way others pulled away from him when he was clean and then when he pulled away from others when he was a doper the difference.

He referred to the clean riders as chumps.

As I’ve said before only the top finishers were dopers.

Who was the top female rider recently who had a pop at the cheats in her industry in her retirement speech?

Wasn’t Lance’s situation similar to Cartman in Southpark? Dad left scene, mother on own? 😆

This is not just about professional cycling. The same rules apply to anyone who races under UCI regulations, whether it’s the TdF or your local fish ‘n chipper. We all choose to compete within that framework. If you break the rules, there are sanctions, and it’s important for everyone in the sport that cheats are prosecuted and sanctioned.
Whatever Lance Armstrong did or didn’t do for cancer awareness is irrelevant to his prosecution for breaking the rules of the sport.
Pro cycling has a serious and institutionalised problem with illegal performance enhancing drugs, and some of that filters down to non pro level, with a few cases of EPO use in recent years. I’m not sure how much has really changed (look at Daryl Impey recently testing positive for the same diuretic/masker that Delgado used 26 years ago) but we are talking more openly about stuff that was just glossed over years ago. I can’t imagine that Kelly, Mercx, Robert* Millar and co would get such an easy ride for their positive tests today.
* I do mean Robert.

My younger brother died from Bowel Cancer last year.
He always saw Lance as an inspiration, had his book, wore a yellow wristband everywhere, etc.
Although he kind of knew it was coming, he was gutted when Lance confessed all on TV.

Really, all the sport side of it is kind of an irrelevant frippery compared to this – so sorry to hear about your brother. 🙁

Oh look…….

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/28194582

one thing more than anything bothers me,
how can a bloke enjoy a victory, knowing that he cheated to get it?

I suspect it was seen in the same way that diving in football is now. It’s clearly cheating, but players, team managers and the authorities all accept that it’s just “part of the game”. Diving is usually easier to detect than doping of course, and the authorities could virtually put a stop to it by punishing based on video evidence. But it’s just accepted without anyone within the game really discussing it publicly except for the occasional big controversial event.

This does not in any way excuse it of course!

how can a bloke enjoy a victory, knowing that he cheated to get it?

He genuinely think that he didn’t cheat. In his mind you only cheated if you gained an unfair advantage over others, and as far as he was concerned, everyone else was doped too, so it wasn’t cheating.

Oh look…….

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/28194582
I take that as a positive (no pun intended), bet it’s been a long, long time since cycling’s rate would be as low as 1.2%.

I thought it was an interesting documentary. Have no feelings about Armstrong one way or the other, he was just a product of a sport full of cheats.
So, the TdF is clean now then?

I suspect it was seen in the same way that diving in football is now.

Or drugs in football.

Wasn’t baseball supposedly the most drug ridden sport? Could never figure out how they’d help. Other than possibly with the boredom.